Merchie Fun Facts - part ...

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spence
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RE: Merchie Fun Facts - part ...

Post by spence »

This "defect" was corrected and retro-fitted after that one occurance..., and was only a problem in the "all-welded" ones to begin with.

The statement above is only half true. The defect: crack propagation through the steel on all-welded construction ships was somewhat mitigated by incorporating several riveted strakes (longitudinal joints between pieces of all-welded shell plating) into the construction of the ship. It was certainly not generally mitigated in this way during the 2nd World War but subsequent to it when the ships continued to serve. As the years passed (a significant number or incidents occurred in the 60s) metal fatigue caused by the normal stresses of sailing the sea combined with cracks in the shell plating (often around hatch coamings but also in other areas where two pieces of metal joined at a 90 degree or acute angle) to cause a number of ships to "spontaneously break in half"; some quite suddenly and some regretfully while at sea.

[Been a long long time since I went to USCG (Merchant) Marine Inspection School but I remember that this issue and solutions were addressed in some detail.]
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RE: Merchie Fun Facts - part ...

Post by Mike Scholl »

ORIGINAL: spence
This "defect" was corrected and retro-fitted after that one occurance..., and was only a problem in the "all-welded" ones to begin with.

The statement above is only half true. The defect: crack propagation through the steel on all-welded construction ships was somewhat mitigated by incorporating several riveted strakes (longitudinal joints between pieces of all-welded shell plating) into the construction of the ship. It was certainly not generally mitigated in this way during the 2nd World War but subsequent to it when the ships continued to serve. As the years passed (a significant number or incidents occurred in the 60s) metal fatigue caused by the normal stresses of sailing the sea combined with cracks in the shell plating (often around hatch coamings but also in other areas where two pieces of metal joined at a 90 degree or acute angle) to cause a number of ships to "spontaneously break in half"; some quite suddenly and some regretfully while at sea.

[Been a long long time since I went to USCG (Merchant) Marine Inspection School but I remember that this issue and solutions were addressed in some detail.]

I'm not sure I would consider it a problem if ships designed and built in the early '40's to survive one or two convoy runs began to show signs of age and metal fatigue 20 years later. Point was that "fixes" were made during the war that prevented this weakness from becoming an important consideration during the campaign.
spence
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RE: Merchie Fun Facts - part ...

Post by spence »

From the WitP perspective there is no need to "simulate" some of the early problems of all-welded construction - the war was long over by the time they began to manifest themselves.
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RE: Merchie Fun Facts - part ...

Post by Mike Scholl »

Exactly!
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m10bob
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RE: Merchie Fun Facts - part ...

Post by m10bob »

Nobody can be accused of not considering the most esoteric![:D]
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JWE
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RE: Merchie Fun Facts - part ...

Post by JWE »

ORIGINAL: m10bob
I might be off base here, but just commenting.
I have never liked the use of a percentage% of this or that to represent a ships' carrying capacity, especially when some modders have admitted they are doing so to either "balance" the game, or slow it down.
<snip>

Not off base at all. Conceptually agree that every ship should have her specs, but there were too many types, and a vast amount of variation between types. For my scenarios, I use about 15-18 AK types for each of the US, Allied and Japanese, divided into older (1920s) and newer types, the types ranging from 8500 to 1200 metric, subdivided by speed, and further subdivided by range. It gives a useful mix and allows for custom tailoring of national merchant fleets according to their published proportions of vessels.

For example, a standard C2-Cargo comes in 23 different flavors; shelter deck, scantling deck, reefer, no reefer, wet tanks, no wet tanks, diesel, turbine, hold arrangement, deck fittings, and all of these differed for each of 5 major shipping companies. A standard vessel would be different were it ordered by Lykes, Moore McCormack or Luckenback, say.

Brits & the other Euros were even more varied. They didn’t take lines off a standard design, but rather designed and built a series of sisters (2, 3, 4, maybe 5) off a customer spec. Shippers ordered ships for anticipated service runs. A ship built for So. American service would be different from a ship built for No. American service, African service, or the India/Asia run.

What I do is group things, like the C1-A, or C2-Cargo, and find the mean, sigma, of the capacity distribution from the design files. That becomes the capacity of a C2-Cargo (for example). I use sigma to differentiate means between C2-Cargo, C2-F/T/S, C2-S-B1, C2-S-AJ, for instance, so I can get a nice range of ships with different capacities, ranges, etc.. But the capacity number chosen is not a soft percentage. It is a statistical average of actuals, in metric tons.

For Euros & Japanese the data is a bit more spotty, so I use certain fitting parameters. Once again, find the means of the actuals, but then also group the data source vessels with respect to the box rule and midship section (preferably prismatics, where available) and define a working range of classes. Vessels having a paucity of data are fit within a category based on their coefficients. Once again, the capacity number is not a percentage, but reflects rather an actual value of a chosen representative vessel.

Similarly for tankers. A T2 can’t really carry 141k bbls of crude, but it can carry 141k bbls of a mixed cargo of avgas, iso-octane, and napthalene; but you don’t get many of those. Fortunately, the game runs in tons, and the tonnage limits are available. For a SE-A1, it’s about 13,880 metric. That allows all cargos to be somewhat fungible, irrespective of density. Tankers are also grouped with respect to the box rule and midship section (they fit very well) and, once again, indeterminate vessels are fit within a category based on their coefficients.

Tying it all together. All the values used are from design draughts and builder’s verifications of vessels floating on their lines; using design values allows consistency and uniformity across the board without resort to soft assumptions. Everyone will, therefore, find a favorite vessel with different IRL numbers, and they are, necessarily, more correct. I just thought it wise to show why I do it how I do it, and why my Fort Flatulence nominally carrys less (or more) than the IRL Pigsnout Park.
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JWE
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RE: Merchie Fun Facts - part ...

Post by JWE »

ORIGINAL: m10bob

Nobody can be accused of not considering the most esoteric![:D]

A really nice study of the welded ship issue is at http://shipstructure.org/pdf/62.pdf It’s pretty dry, but seems to cover most of the esoteric bases.
el cid again
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RE: Merchie Fun Facts - part ...

Post by el cid again »

ORIGINAL: m10bob

I might be off base here, but just commenting.
I have never liked the use of a percentage% of this or that to represent a ships' carrying capacity, especially when some modders have admitted they are doing so to either "balance" the game, or slow it down.
I feel in giving historical capacities, the player is given the option of placing a verifiable value on his cargo ships and may choose to protect them more often.
Maybe having less of them can both "slow down" the game, and open slots for other ships, or types??
BTW, Liberty ships were a true marvel, for many reasons, but being assembled in sections, the hulls had a risk of coming apart at the seems from wear or rough seas.
(I know at least one came apart.)
Is this something that is simulated in the game in any way, and if not, is it feasable?
If it were in game, and had a lesser durability figure, maybe the owning player would keep them from harms way as he should his "super passenger liners"??


I agree with JWE - you are not off base at all (at least not theoretically speaking).

Modding (and game designing and simulation) are most of all arts of compromising. By definition it is a simplification of reality. Just how far to go down that road is a matter of judgement - and of cost. Cost may be literally in terms of money - particularly for a company paying people - but it also is a matter of time. AKWarrior spent an awful amount of time getting the LSTs identified, and their entry dates verified, and that is nothing compared to trying to do the same thing for every merchant ship in the game (there being "only" a thousand or so LSTs). We probably do not have the ability to determine the actual cargo capacity for all ships - and we almost certainly do not have the time to research it - never mind try to enter it. On the other hand, if you have a magic wand I don't (a way to get all that data AND enter it in this century) - if you can get there - we can talk about waving it - not just at this matter - but many others. Then there is the point of diminishing returns: if we know a typical tanker carries about 85% of deadweight as cargo (and if you prefer the 83% given in an example above, by all means go with that) - we gain very little giving Tanker A 84% and Tanker B 86% - if you see what I mean. That said - I think the more detail we can get - particularly accurate detail - the better.

As for making Liberty ships more vulnerable, so far we don't do that. If you want to do that, we can: reduce durability rating. But by how much? 10%???
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RE: Merchie Fun Facts - part ...

Post by el cid again »

ORIGINAL: JWE


Brits & the other Euros were even more varied. They didn’t take lines off a standard design, but rather designed and built a series of sisters (2, 3, 4, maybe 5) off a customer spec. Shippers ordered ships for anticipated service runs. A ship built for So. American service would be different from a ship built for No. American service, African service, or the India/Asia run.

[/quote]

A quibble here - for the esoterically inclined: for every rule there are exceptions. The Liberty Ship was not a US idea at all - it was a PRE WWII British concept - of a private shipyard. We ran with it - but the idea of a standardized ship was actually "Euro" in its origins (and initial realization in steel).

More generally, JWE's approach is not only valid - it is done by all forms of WITP. We all have groups of ships - and I think we always will - for practical reasons - and because to some extent this is also correct. But in all cases it is close enough.
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JWE
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RE: Merchie Fun Facts - part ...

Post by JWE »

ORIGINAL: el cid again
ORIGINAL: JWE

Brits & the other Euros were even more varied. They didn’t take lines off a standard design, but rather designed and built a series of sisters (2, 3, 4, maybe 5) off a customer spec. Shippers ordered ships for anticipated service runs. A ship built for So. American service would be different from a ship built for No. American service, African service, or the India/Asia run.
A quibble here - for the esoterically inclined: for every rule there are exceptions. The Liberty Ship was not a US idea at all - it was a PRE WWII British concept - of a private shipyard. We ran with it - but the idea of a standardized ship was actually "Euro" in its origins (and initial realization in steel).

Everybody knows the history, or should. The Liberty was historically off the Dorrington Court, J.L.Thompson built for Court Line, London. Brits ordered 60 vessels on her plan, but we had to develop yard space to build them (just like our USSB, Emergency Fleet Program of War-I). She was 5281 by Lloyds, but all her wartime takeoffs came in at 7,000 – 7,300. Thus, she didn’t contribute much, except space distribution and PW/Wt/V/A’’. The Liberty owes nothing to the Dorrington Court except a nice historical footnote.

Take-offs ignored her lines, but took coefficients to define the Brit war built Ocean Class (i.e., Clan Macbeth), Empire-B/D (i.e., Clan Angus), differentiated by v-tuck stern/cruiser stern, respectively, and semi-composite/split superstructures, also respectively.

Why the Dorrington Court? Wartime economics. She was relatively large, cheap & easy. She was a recip, when everybody else was building diesels and turbines. The Brits allocated all diesel and turbine engine construction to warship development, so recip was all that was left, and that’s what they wanted.

She wasn’t FUBAR, but she was FU. A lot of people almost lost their jobs by telling FDR just how FU she was. Many alternatives were offered, most substantially superior, but we were stuck because of the diesel/turbine allocation issue. MOWT knew her design was compromised, hell, everybody knew her design was compromised, but in for a penny, as they say.

We built many items (Sherman tanks and Liberty ships, for examples) because they were adequate and we could build them in vast serial quantity. We didn’t do it because they were good, we did it because they were sufficient, and we could build thousands of them.
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RE: Merchie Fun Facts - part ...

Post by JWE »

ORIGINAL: el cid again
We ran with it - but the idea of a standardized ship was actually "Euro" in its origins (and initial realization in steel).

The idea of a standard ship design goes back to the Greeks. The idea of mass produced, serially built, cargo vessel designs was pioneered by the United States Shipping Board, in 1918.
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keeferon01
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RE: Merchie Fun Facts - part ...

Post by keeferon01 »

ORIGINAL: JWE

ORIGINAL: el cid again
We ran with it - but the idea of a standardized ship was actually "Euro" in its origins (and initial realization in steel).

The idea of a standard ship design goes back to the Greeks. The idea of mass produced, serially built, cargo vessel designs was pioneered by the United States Shipping Board, in 1918.

Theodore Ferris is a name that comes to mind, very american not euro like me
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JWE
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RE: Merchie Fun Facts - part ...

Post by JWE »

ORIGINAL: Ron James

ORIGINAL: JWE

ORIGINAL: el cid again
We ran with it - but the idea of a standardized ship was actually "Euro" in its origins (and initial realization in steel).

The idea of a standard ship design goes back to the Greeks. The idea of mass produced, serially built, cargo vessel designs was pioneered by the United States Shipping Board, in 1918.

Theodore Ferris is a name that comes to mind, very american not euro like me

Yep. The EFCs chief designer. And a pretty fair ship designer in his own right, too. Although some people will push G.W.Goethals, or Bill Denman. There ain't no smokin gun on who came up with the idea, but I think Goethals was a piece of puke, and Denman was a politician, so I'm with you; Ted Ferris.

All things considered, I do like the Euro approach, though. I'm a Clan Line fan. I sometimes find the infinite march of identical lemmings, to be a bit disturbing. I like variety.
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RE: Merchie Fun Facts - part ...

Post by m10bob »

ORIGINAL: JWE

ORIGINAL: el cid again
We ran with it - but the idea of a standardized ship was actually "Euro" in its origins (and initial realization in steel).

The idea of a standard ship design goes back to the Greeks. The idea of mass produced, serially built, cargo vessel designs was pioneered by the United States Shipping Board, in 1918.

Uniformity also included steam locomotives in the U.S. in that the engine manufacturers in 1918 were limited to building only approved models nationwide.
There were still many wheel arrangent types, but they had to be of a uniform design.
Thus a fairly large (for then) standard freight engine was a "U.S.R.A. 2-8-2 Mikado".
USRA was U.S. Railroad Administration.
Now if you read of those old engines and see them described as USRA engines, you know the link to WWI.....
Different railroads were allowed to slightly alter the engines with their own bells, lights, number boards, but all else was virtually identical.
These engines were still being built,voluntarily till approx 1927.
I have the the research marerial at hand if anybody is interested.
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el cid again
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RE: Merchie Fun Facts - part ...

Post by el cid again »

ORIGINAL: JWE


We built many items (Sherman tanks and Liberty ships, for examples) because they were adequate and we could build them in vast serial quantity. We didn’t do it because they were good, we did it because they were sufficient, and we could build thousands of them.

Sort of an American implementation of Russian strategy: as Stalin once quipped to Churchill: "quantity has a quality all its own"
el cid again
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RE: Merchie Fun Facts - part ...

Post by el cid again »

ORIGINAL: JWE

ORIGINAL: el cid again
We ran with it - but the idea of a standardized ship was actually "Euro" in its origins (and initial realization in steel).

The idea of a standard ship design goes back to the Greeks. The idea of mass produced, serially built, cargo vessel designs was pioneered by the United States Shipping Board, in 1918.

I agree. But my book on Liberty ships credits the concept specifically to the British. Perhaps it is a matter of perspective - I think the book has British authors.
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RE: Merchie Fun Facts - part ...

Post by keeferon01 »

Was the goal of the board to build enough ships to supply 80 American divisions on French soil during the great war.
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RE: Merchie Fun Facts - part ...

Post by JWE »

ORIGINAL: Ron James

Was the goal of the board to build enough ships to supply 80 American divisions on French soil during the great war.

Part of the Board’s thinking was support of a large AEF component, certainly. Another part was much the same as what impelled the War-2 building projects. Arthur Balfour came over, cash in hand, wanting 150 ships in the 5000 GRT range. Uummmm …money

We had the 3rd largest merchant fleet in 1914, but when you consider that number one (guess who) was as large as numbers 2 through 16, combined, being number 3 was like being a cherry-bomb next to a nuke. The USSB was there as much to develop a credible US merchant fleet as to assist the Allied Powers.

In about 06/1914, Brits had about 4200 vessels (1600 GRT and over) totaling about 18,200,000 GRT, and lost over 40% of it (7,700,000 GRT) from 06/1914 - 11/1918, most of it in the larger sizes. Taking construction into account, they had a net loss of 3,250,000 GRT for the period 06/1914 - 11/1918 (almost 18%).

In about 06/1914, the US had about 500 vessels (1600 GRT and over), totaling about 2,200,000 GRT. Through all of 1914 – 1917, we built about 715 vessels totaling about 1,880,000 GRT.

Comes the USSB and, after we got the yards built, in 1918 alone, we built about 930 vessels, totaling 3,033,000 GRT.
In 1918, the rest of the world combined, including UK and Dominions, built about 915 vessels, totaling 2,350,000 GRT.
el cid again
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RE: Merchie Fun Facts - part ...

Post by el cid again »

Any idea why we have decided (now, de facto) not to have a significant merchant fleet or shipbuilding capability? Given Mahan's theory about maritime power, and the US Navy's attitude about it, you might expect a different policy. My former home port - Long Beach Naval Shipyard - is now operated by China.
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RE: Merchie Fun Facts - part ...

Post by Mike Scholl »

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Any idea why we have decided (now, de facto) not to have a significant merchant fleet or shipbuilding capability? Given Mahan's theory about maritime power, and the US Navy's attitude about it, you might expect a different policy. My former home port - Long Beach Naval Shipyard - is now operated by China.


Unions and Safety Regulations. US crewed and flagged ships simply cannot compete with places like Panama and Liberia. Priced and regulated ourselves right out of another set of paying jobs.
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