Jap CVE or CVL

[rtrapasso]

Did IJN CVEs have catapaults?

(USN ones did which is the only way they could get fully armed planes off in some cases).

[Curty]

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

Did IJN CVEs have catapaults?

(USN ones did which is the only way they could get fully armed planes off in some cases).

Strangely enough my references where i get my info don't mention catapults on CVEs, Number of lifts, aircraft, gross tonage etc...not a word about catapults. But then again it doesn.t mention them in description of fleet carriers either.

Do we deduce from this that it was a fore-gone conclusion that CVEs also had catapults or nay?

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: Curty

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

Did IJN CVEs have catapaults?

(USN ones did which is the only way they could get fully armed planes off in some cases).

Strangely enough my references where i get my info don't mention catapults on CVEs, Number of lifts, aircraft, gross tonage etc...not a word about catapults. But then again it doesn.t mention them in description of fleet carriers either.

Do we deduce from this that it was a fore-gone conclusion that CVEs also had catapults or nay?

Err.. never heard that IJN fleet carriers had catapaults... but then again, i've only recently read about early-war USN CVs having them... so, not sure we can conclude anything without more proof (one way or the other). Apparently, many of these worked with compressed air... the steam-driven catapault being tested after the war.

EDIT: i did find the ISE and MOGAMI conversions had catapaults... but nothing else yet.

[rtrapasso]

OK - doing a little research on the web, some guy made a passing reference to various IJN aircraft only being able to be operated "from large carriers with catapaults" - but gives no real references.

i did find a pic from a model maker that he says shows the Soryu with the catapault rails (hard to see here):



EDIT: The rail is supposed to be the faint path to the right, which does not seem quite parallel to the axis of the flight deck... the model maker talks about having to engrave it onto the deck of his model (and shows the path of the catapault in his assembly diagram).

[spence]

Can't say that I am convinced that that is a catapult rail...looks pretty 2 dimensional...like it's painted on the deck...my eyes aren't what they used to be though.

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: spence

Can't say that I am convinced that that is a catapult rail...looks pretty 2 dimensional...like it's painted on the deck...my eyes aren't what they used to be though.

Right - well that is why i qualified it that it was what the model maker SAID... i'd like to find other evidence.

[Curty]

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

OK - doing a little research on the web, some guy made a passing reference to various IJN aircraft only being able to be operated "from large carriers with catapaults" - but gives no real references.

i did find a pic from a model maker that he says shows the Soryu with the catapault rails (hard to see here):



EDIT: The rail is supposed to be the faint path to the right, which does not seem quite parallel to the axis of the flight deck... the model maker talks about having to engrave it onto the deck of his model (and shows the path of the catapault in his assembly diagram).

I must admit i tried to beat you on that one , i went for a detailed google search on the internet,...

I MIGHT HAVE WELL AS TYPED IT IN UNDER 'RARE AS ROCKING HORSE $H*T CATEGORIE!

[bigjoe96912]

I use them as another baby KB, Hosho and 3 CVE's I put those pesky 9 plane squadrons on them, gives you a 32 Zero 32 Kate and a 27 Val load. I bring them in following up behind KB for mop up operations, never know when that last strike makes the difference in Lex sinking or making it home.

[John 3rd]

Anyone who has ever paid attention to my AARs know how much I love CVEs.  They are great,  When you get your 4th one, they do have to ability to pack some real firepower.  I agree about the low sortie number so I tend to load them with 2/3 Fighters and 1/3 Bombers. 

The most useful thing, albiet they got sunk for this, was to stick them out where they could be seen by Paul Layne in late-1943.  He knew that they were CVEs because the PBY identifies one of them so he sent a single TF of American CVs (2 Essex and 2 Princeton) after them.  What he didn't know was that my entire KB was lurking nearby.  As he went after my poor CVEs, my CV/CVL launched a killer strike that planted one Essex and both of the Princetons.  Worked out pretty well...

In late-1942 they can really be useful to cover 'other' operations that don't need you KB's attention.  Helps to reduce System Damage on your heavies as well.

With the Japanese, one has to be REALLY creative to add some new tricks to the book and those CVEs are one of them.

[BrucePowers]

Ooh, that's nasty[:D]

[John 3rd]

I was doing some easy reading and the subject of the Japanese conversions came up in my book. I am reading the New Vanguard book "Imperial Japanese Navy Aircraft Carriers: 1921-1945" and though rather disappointing, it did have some pages on the CVEs of Japan.

Since we were just chatting about them yesterday and today I thought this to be ironic and (perhaps) a sign!

Notes:
1. Average Air Group of Taiyo Class CVE--Taiyo, Chuyo, and Unyo--was 18 Fighters and 6 Bombers. It doesn't say whether Kate or Val but that would work with what we were talking about earlier--2 Chutai of Zeros and 1 Chutai of Val or Kate. Slow speed of 21 knots.

2. Kaiyo and Shinyo operated 27 aircraft of about the same composition. Their speed was slightly higher at 23 Knots.

Here would be proof for our designers of what the Japanese actually outfitted these ships with. They should be hard-coded with those air groups like in RHS. If you had all five together, they would pack an approximate total of 90 Zero and 45 Attack Planes. That isn't bad at all...

Just thinking and reading...

[spence]

Hosho- the oldest CVL commissioned Dec 22nd 1922. After years of experimental work during the 20's she was relegated to secondary tasks by the end of 1933. But by the time of Pearl she was back in the A-team taking part in Midway.

The A-team is just maybe a tad of an overstatement. She carried 6 x B4 biplane Jeans at Midway. Shattered Sword sorta sums it up by saying that Yamamoto pretty much gave some "make work" to every available ship in the IJN (the four old BBs sitting halfway between the AL Forces and the MI Forces in such a position as to be unable to support either without a week's notice pretty much proves that point too).

[spence]

I recently picked up Isom's "MIDWAY INQUEST". I haven't as yet read it but I've sorta poked around a little. Somewhere towards the end he makes mention of an "operational concept" right after Midway (it didn't get far enough along to be a plan I guess) where Yamamoto considered joining Zuikaku and Zuiho with Rjuyo and Junyo and using the AL Invasion Forces directly assaulting Dutch Harbor as "bait" for the USN's carriers. Problems with Zuikaku reconstituting its air group pretty much squelched the "plan" pretty much at its inception though.

But Isom does go into the lineup for this never happened battle and comments that the Japanese could only count on using torpedo armed bombers from Zuikaku and Junyo: that the Kates/pilots on Ryujo and Zuiho had never been trained or operated as torpedo bombers.

[John 3rd]

That sounds interesting.  What is the ISBN of that book?  Don't have it.  Let me know if there is any value to it.

How hard would it be to code those CVE that I detailed earlier?  I know it has been done in RHS and I LOVE IT!  It is only a little more punch but I'll (as Japanese) take anything I can get!  [8D]

[spence]

That sounds interesting. What is the ISBN of that book? Don't have it. Let me know if there is any value to it.

Isom "Midway Inquest" and Parsham/Tully "Shattered Sword" published some articles in the Naval War College Review in 2000 (I think). I've read those and read "Shattered Sword". Figured this would be a good complement to that work.

One other tidbit I stumbled across in Isom's book is a translation of some Japanese Radio Direction Finding Net papers that indicate that the IJN had DF'd what was identified as almost certainly an American CV TF Northeast of Midway by at least the day before the battle. The intel was put out over the IJN Net but not received (apparently) by Nagumo. It was received by Yamamoto on Yamato but he specifically ordered that radio silence be maintained and that Yamato not forward the intel to Nagumo on Akagi. It was his feeling that Akagi should have received the intel too even though some of his staff pointed out that Akagi's long wave receivers were badly placed and might not have copied the broadcast due to distance.

[spence]

ISBN 978-0-253-34904-0 for ISOM's "MIDWAY INQUEST"