I don't think the a-bomb shortned the war by more than a day or two. There never would have been an invasion of Japan. The event that made Japan surrender was the Soviet declaration of war. The Japanese were not afraid of death by atomic bombing. These were the same people that threw themselves and their infant children over cliffs rather than be captured by American forces. They willfully flew aircraft into ships. The only fate they were afraid of was defeat by the Soviets. Historical documents from Japan show that the decision to surrender was based totally on the Soviet war declaration. The atomic bombings were hardly even mentioned in the discussions.
That being said, the United States certainly didn't know any of this at the time. The atomic bombings were no more morally wrong than the fire bombing of Japan's paper cities, the fire-storms over Germany, the indiscriminate bombing and rocket attacks on London, the maltreatment of POWs, the rape of Nanking, and so on... Gen. Tibbets has every reason to be proud of his service. He performed his duties honorably and deserves the respect reserved for all veterans of that war. I'm quite happy that he was able to live the rest of his life with a clear concience.
Here we go again...
Well, gee... Didn't we know in advance that this would happen?
Excerpts from Tibbits obit in today's Washington Post:
"... Gen. Tibbets was depicted by Hollywood leading man Robert Taylor in "Above and Beyond," a 1952 fictional account of the airman's life leading to the atomic bombing of Hiroshima ...
... His decorations included the Distinguished Service Cross, the Legion of Merit and the Distinguished Flying Cross ...
.. Gen. Tibbets was angered by the planned 50th anniversary exhibit of the Enola Gay at the Smithsonian Institution, which included a long explanation of the suffering caused by the atomic attacks. He and veterans groups said there was not enough about Japanese villainy during the war. The Smithsonian exhibit, at the National Air and Space Museum, went ahead without commentary or analysis ...
... Tibbets said that he met with President Harry S. Truman in 1948 in the Oval Office and that the president asked the airman if he had regrets. As he would for the rest of his life, Gen. Tibbets replied that he had none and had done his duty to protect the country ... "
Amen to that; some of us might not be posting here as our fathers were slated to invade Japan after defeating Germany.
Very true. One of my co-workers' father was slated for that op. My mother and father, both in Europe in WWII, could have ended up over there.
For what we are about to receive, may we be truly thankful.
Lieutenant Bush - Captain Horatio Hornblower by C S Forester
I think it speaks very ill of the sensationalist press and its muck rakers to attack people like Bomber Harris and Tibbetts ...
Who are the sensationalists and muck rakers .... I have yet to hear a story of Tibbetts that was not respectful ...
Fortunately you won't hear disrespect in an obit, but Tibbits complained about what reporters had either written about him and his mission, or attributed to his critics in today's Washing Post story; in fact the Post had to use an "expletive deleted" to describe what Tibbits said re this kind of "reporting".
I can only imagine what was said re Harris; no one likes the idea of bombing civilian populations. But Tibbits claimed there wasn't a war fought w/o civilain casulaties and that it was their "tough luck for being there" or words to that effect!
I guess that makes him the perfect personality type to drop an A-bomb on someone.
Joe, I can't disagree with you...sounds like Tibbetts was the best man for the job.
If ever there was a solemn duty to be performed that must have been it and by all accounts he carried it out with great professionalism and honor. He saw a lot of things over the course of his life and was at an age in the 60s and 70s when a man tends to look back on his legacy. Must have been a hard thing to do considering what was going on in America at that time. I'm sure the reporters then were very unkind.
It's also a shame that a man's funeral becomes a political statement, for one side or another. It should be a time for family and friends.
... The atomic bombings were no more morally wrong than the fire bombing of Japan's paper cities, the fire-storms over Germany, the indiscriminate bombing and rocket attacks on London, the maltreatment of POWs, the rape of Nanking, and so on ...
Author Kurt Vonegut basically felt the same way re the fire storm that consumed Dresden; there was never the moral outcry as was over Hiroshima.
[/quote]
I think I'd have to agree with Kurt...God willing we'll never see another war like that.
I've seen plenty from the champagne socilaist "journalists" who are all too eager to quote the mayor of Dresden or Hiroshioma: "X is a war crim" stuff. They do it to be sensational, get a by-line to self agrandize and generate advertising revenue, not for any reason to do with reporting anything resembling news.
Shame on them.
I'm not sure which country you're in, niceguy2005, perhaps you have escaped seeing it - if so, good.
I'm from the U.S. I have never seen an article like that from a reputable source and I don't read or listen to the hate mongering fringe, left or right.
If you have a source with an actual quote I'd be interested, I'd love to send the author a nasty-gram. However, it would be best to send it PM as I think this sort of stuff should be done off line.
Amen to that; some of us might not be posting here as our fathers were slated to invade Japan after defeating Germany.
I don't think the a-bomb shortned the war by more than a day or two. There never would have been an invasion of Japan. The event that made Japan surrender was the Soviet declaration of war. The Japanese were not afraid of death by atomic bombing. These were the same people that threw themselves and their infant children over cliffs rather than be captured by American forces. They willfully flew aircraft into ships. The only fate they were afraid of was defeat by the Soviets. Historical documents from Japan show that the decision to surrender was based totally on the Soviet war declaration. The atomic bombings were hardly even mentioned in the discussions.
That being said, the United States certainly didn't know any of this at the time. The atomic bombings were no more morally wrong than the fire bombing of Japan's paper cities, the fire-storms over Germany, the indiscriminate bombing and rocket attacks on London, the maltreatment of POWs, the rape of Nanking, and so on... Gen. Tibbets has every reason to be proud of his service. He performed his duties honorably and deserves the respect reserved for all veterans of that war. I'm quite happy that he was able to live the rest of his life with a clear concience.
One can debate the morality of using atomic bombs and their effect of ending the war quicker all day long and still not settle a thing. People have their opinions and you/I/we/they are unlikely to change them.
There is no morality in war. Morality is a luxury that only a people living in peace can enjoy. Some countries try to maintain a semblance of morality during war, others could care less.
IMO, had the bombs not been dropped, Japan may have to chosen to continue resistance until invaded and conquered. Its very unlikely that a simple declaration of war by Russian would have prompted their surrender. Without the bombs, Japan would need to be invaded.
The question is would have been the Russians or the US to first invade? Its highly likely that without the bombings to prompt the surrender, Russia would have invaded northern Japan and conquered or controlled a large portion of the home islands before the US was able to land. Had that happened we would have had a situation similar to that in Europe after the war. But instead of an "Iron Curtain" we would be calling it a "Rice" or "Bamboo" curtain.
Today's moralists are the same ones that wanted immediate action following 9/11 and are now crying loud and long about how immoral it is that they got what they asked for.
Chez
Ret Navy AWCS (1972-1998)
VP-5, Jacksonville, Fl 1973-78
ASW Ops Center, Rota, Spain 1978-81
VP-40, Mt View, Ca 1981-87
Patrol Wing 10, Mt View, CA 1987-90
ASW Ops Center, Adak, Ak 1990-92
NRD Seattle 1992-96
VP-46, Whidbey Isl, Wa 1996-98
Be it an Officer of a B-29, be it a squad leader of something we will NEVER know, be it a top turrent Sgt of a B-17. I have just one thing to say...
*salutes*
Those of you who want to debate this.... SHAME ON YOU!
Whipple
And I absolutely agree with you. It matters not their rank, their position or their duty in war. The fact is that the vast majority of combatants, friend and foe, fought as honorably as they could under extreme circumstances that few of us have ever experienced.
Whether its Tibbits, Sakai, or any one of the millions of people called upon to do their part, they did it to the best of their ability and they deserve our respect.
Chez
Ret Navy AWCS (1972-1998)
VP-5, Jacksonville, Fl 1973-78
ASW Ops Center, Rota, Spain 1978-81
VP-40, Mt View, Ca 1981-87
Patrol Wing 10, Mt View, CA 1987-90
ASW Ops Center, Adak, Ak 1990-92
NRD Seattle 1992-96
VP-46, Whidbey Isl, Wa 1996-98
I've seen plenty from the champagne socilaist "journalists" who are all too eager to quote the mayor of Dresden or Hiroshioma: "X is a war crim" stuff. They do it to be sensational, get a by-line to self agrandize and generate advertising revenue, not for any reason to do with reporting anything resembling news.
Shame on them.
I'm not sure which country you're in, niceguy2005, perhaps you have escaped seeing it - if so, good.
I'm from the U.S. I have never seen an article like that from a reputable source and I don't read or listen to the hate mongering fringe, left or right.
If you have a source with an actual quote I'd be interested, I'd love to send the author a nasty-gram. However, it would be best to send it PM as I think this sort of stuff should be done off line.
The anniversery of Dresden is next following by Hiroshima. I'll try and remember to PM you with a URL when the usual rubbish appears.
The passing of a great Warrior. His deeds will long be remembered with Respect and Honor by the people he protected and helped gain freedom, and by his Comrades.
S!
... But all these replies are missing the point. Another WW2 vet has passed away.
Be it an Officer of a B-29, be it a squad leader of something we will NEVER know, be it a top turrent Sgt of a B-17. I have just one thing to say...
*salutes*
Those of you who want to debate this.... SHAME ON YOU!
Whipple
But -- in addition to stopping facism and imperialism -- they died so that we would have the freedom to debate all this and freely post on this forum w/o fear of reprisal.
At least until the moderator shuts us down.
Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.[center][/center]
[center]"The Angel of Okinawa"[/center]
Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II
Another vet, such as Art West (my brother's father-in law), tech sargent, 81st Infantry Division, fought in the pacific. Died two weeks ago. Probably won't find him in the history books, but he was there and he did his job.
Edit: So the squabbling will continue forever about whether what he did was right or wrong in the eyes of current time moralists, but a lot of vets, such as Art, had a chance to return home because of the task that Tibbetts did. A chance to raise a family, buy a small potato farm and increase it to over 3,000 acres, and have a good life. If that bomb had not been dropped, he, and many others, might now be lying in unknown graves throughout the Pacific - including my father who would never have been such. So please, squabble on. The War in the Pacific was not always a game.
USMC: 1970-1977. A United States Marine.
We don't take kindly to idjits.
... But all these replies are missing the point. Another WW2 vet has passed away.
Be it an Officer of a B-29, be it a squad leader of something we will NEVER know, be it a top turrent Sgt of a B-17. I have just one thing to say...
*salutes*
Those of you who want to debate this.... SHAME ON YOU!
Whipple
But -- in addition to stopping facism and imperialism -- they died so that we would have the freedom to debate all this and freely post on this forum w/o fear of reprisal.
At least until the moderator shuts us down.
You are correct, but sometimes freedom of speech shouldn't be expressed. Perfect example is the "god-squad" folks who show up at the funerals of our veterans who have made the ultimate sacrifice and hold signs saying they died because of America's view of homosexuals.
Whipple
MMCS(SW/AW) 1981-2001
1981 RTC, SD
81-82 NPS, Orlando
82-85 NPTU, Idaho Falls
85-90 USS Truxtun (CGN-35)
90-93 USS George Washington (CVN-73)
93-96 NFAS Orlando
96-01 Navsea-08/Naval Reactors
Another vet, such as Art West (my brother's father-in law), tech sargent, 81st Infantry Division, fought in the pacific. Died two weeks ago. Probably won't find him in the history books, but he was there and he did his job.
Edit: So the squabbling will continue forever about whether what he did was right or wrong in the eyes of current time moralists, but a lot of vets, such as Art, had a chance to return home because of the task that Tibbetts did. A chance to raise a family, buy a small potato farm and increase it to over 3,000 acres, and have a good life. If that bomb had not been dropped, he, and many others, might now be lying in unknown graves throughout the Pacific - including my father who would never have been such. So please, squabble on. The War in the Pacific was not always a game.
Well said.
*Salutes* Sgt. West
Whipple
MMCS(SW/AW) 1981-2001
1981 RTC, SD
81-82 NPS, Orlando
82-85 NPTU, Idaho Falls
85-90 USS Truxtun (CGN-35)
90-93 USS George Washington (CVN-73)
93-96 NFAS Orlando
96-01 Navsea-08/Naval Reactors
That "squad" just lost a multi-million $ lawsuit to a family of a recently deceased soldier; to paraphrase Blackstone, you can say what you want, but you're accountable for it.
Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.[center][/center]
[center]"The Angel of Okinawa"[/center]
Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II
Amen to that; some of us might not be posting here as our fathers were slated to invade Japan after defeating Germany.
I don't think the a-bomb shortned the war by more than a day or two. There never would have been an invasion of Japan. The event that made Japan surrender was the Soviet declaration of war. The Japanese were not afraid of death by atomic bombing. These were the same people that threw themselves and their infant children over cliffs rather than be captured by American forces. They willfully flew aircraft into ships. The only fate they were afraid of was defeat by the Soviets. Historical documents from Japan show that the decision to surrender was based totally on the Soviet war declaration. The atomic bombings were hardly even mentioned in the discussions.
That being said, the United States certainly didn't know any of this at the time. The atomic bombings were no more morally wrong than the fire bombing of Japan's paper cities, the fire-storms over Germany, the indiscriminate bombing and rocket attacks on London, the maltreatment of POWs, the rape of Nanking, and so on... Gen. Tibbets has every reason to be proud of his service. He performed his duties honorably and deserves the respect reserved for all veterans of that war. I'm quite happy that he was able to live the rest of his life with a clear concience.
Yea, I sure would be more frightened of a Soviet invasion which I could turn into a guerilla war and make them pay as the Americans paid as Saipan, Iwo, Pelieu, Tarawa, Okinowa, etc., as opposed to being atomic bombed to death with no one to strike back at with revenge.
Whew, its a good thing that the Soviets were threatening to invade.[8|]
Dude, I think I'll smoke that other one now......
Art by the Rogue-USMC
WITP Admiral's Edition: Ship & Sub Art/Base Unit Art/Map Icon Art
"If destruction be our lot - it will come from within"...Abraham Lincoln
It can be argued to infinity because of the variables involved. My take (for what it's worth) is that the two events boosted Hirohitto's resolve to go over the heads of the Imperial GHQ elements that even AFTER both events were still resistant to surrender and broadcast his famous surrender msg to the people, ending any further talk of fighting to the last man, woman and child.
Could that surrender have occured under different circumstances? sure. Can any of us truely know what we would have decided to do were we in the driver's seat without the benefit of hindsight? no.
I have often wondered whether any of the proponents of the "atomic war crimes" school of thought ever had an immediate personal stake in whether the war with Japan lasted a year, a month, a day or a minute longer than it actually did. I suspect not.
Like I've mentioned before, my father was one of the 5 planes involved in the Nagasaki A bomb mission. The feeling was one of shock at first by the crew and by the time they had returned to Tinian they wanted more to drop on Japan to end the war quickly so they could go home. Never judge a different era by anything other than that era's realities.
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