Ju 87 for RHS-EOS?

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el cid again
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RE: Ju 87 for RHS-EOS?

Post by el cid again »

ORIGINAL: Terminus

That's not the way it was done before WWII, however, which is what we're talking about here. WWII dive bombers dove at 80-90 degrees; I stick by my previous post that the He-118 would have been useless as a dive bomber.


I submit Ernst Hoenkel would not agree. Why do you believe he designed it as he did? And why, for that matter, do you think it couldn't dive at a steeper angle? Not saying it could - but I don't remember that being mentioned - and I wonder where you saw that information? Hoenkel lived at Hitachi (a city NE of Tokyo on the Pacific coast of Honshu) for some years and returned to Germany just before WWII. He sold a number of designs and licences and taught aircraft design - at Hitachi KKK. Not as prolific as Dr Messerschmidt (he didn't have a digital computer - while Messerschmidt had the very first and only one on the planet), he was a somewhat bitter rival - and has his own following among aircraft enthusiasts (then and now). The He-118 was designed as a bomber and almost certainly wouldn't be useless. And why do you think glide bombing was not done in WWII? It probably was used well before that.
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RE: Ju 87 for RHS-EOS?

Post by DuckofTindalos »

You're misreading my post (deliberately or not). Ernst Udet himself broke a 118 during testing when he tried to dive it steeper than 50 degrees; it disintegrated in mid-air, and he barely managed to escape with his life.

The Luftwaffe wanted a dive bomber, not a glide bomber, and the Ju-87 could function very well as such, being capable of 90-degree dives, even though an automatic system had to be invented to pull it out of its dive once the bomb dropped, since most pilots would experience GLOC.

Below is a picture of the Heinkel. Looks more like a Fairey Battle than anything else, in my opinion; 13 or 15 were built, and two went to Japan.

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el cid again
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RE: Ju 87 for RHS-EOS?

Post by el cid again »

You may trust I am always innocent - and curious. I didn't know about the test. I agree it looks like a Battle too. Japan liked the plane - and based several designs on it - one or two of them (depending on what you believe about which ones) which were very successful - as dive bombers too. It is certain Japan got a lot of aircraft concepts from Germany.
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RE: Ju 87 for RHS-EOS?

Post by JeffroK »

Sid, just what do you base your comments on??
 
I'd guess your are right about 50% of the time, I'd imagine SLAM is turning in his grave at your research approach.
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el cid again
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RE: Ju 87 for RHS-EOS?

Post by el cid again »

It is measured: I retain about 95% of what I read. If I want to be careful for some reason - I review - and still find it impossible not to have 1-2% error rates. Your 50% must be based on a perception of what an error is. I don't count it an error if I remember correctly - even though it is not well known - or even not in any published material whatever. What you read in concrete or steel is real. What you are told by eyewitnesses is real (and SLAM said far more important than usually credited in Western scholarship - which likes to quote itself in circles rather than go out in the mud to find something new). And I once had a letter from Liddle-Hart in which he questioned the verasity of MOST academic scholars - based on what he found in the records of the Library of Congress. Seems he was the very first to get access to a major original official source - that is cited in countless works. Every last one of those cites was either false - or quoting someone else who had not looked at the original - and most were not very good guesses about what the original might contain. I am not afraid of believing something that isn't popular - it does not mean what I believe is wrong. Nor am I afraid to be corrected - and accept that: data is data - and a scientific investigator wants the best data - without emotional attribution to it. I don't have to believe "American is best." Nor do I sympathize with "American is worst" either. Data is just data.
el cid again
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RE: Ju 87 for RHS-EOS?

Post by el cid again »

Is this topic dead? No one wants to advocate for a different aircraft in EOS?
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RE: Ju 87 for RHS-EOS?

Post by Historiker »

According to what I know, the Ju87D had a range of 1000km with 1800kg Bomb load. How many hexes are that? At least 5, no? So I see no reason why a EEO or EOS Japan shouldn't use this great possibility to have a DB with incredibly devastating bombs in the early years.
If it's range is still seen as to short, one could equip one DB units with D3A and one with Ju87D per ship, no?


To your other suggestions:
As the Ju-88 is better than the He-111, we should only think about the Ju-88. It's bombload is with 3500kg nearly as high as the bombload of the G5N and it's range is with 2500km also nice enough to equip at least army bomber units.
Ju 188? nice, but the slot can perhaps be used better
Ar-234B would be realy some good improvement. Shall be added as it may give the Japs the possibilty to punch even through heavy CAP but I don't know how effectiv CAP stays against faster bombers.
He-177A5? Great! 7700kg bomb load, range of approx. 6000km
Me-262 why as attack bomber? Why not as interceptor?
FW-200 is in game early enough and can carry more bombload than the Betty and the C3 has a even larger range than the G4M
Ju-290A why not? :)
But what abnout my suggestions?
What's about Fw 190, Me 110/410, and the Me 262 as interceptor?
I've already written about the Ju87...

The question is, how many japanese planes are better than german ones? A most intelligent Japan might have begun to buy the production rights of every German plane and of other german equipment, too.
Just think about the Japanese Radar or it's MGs... A German MG42 would have been an extreme improvement to the Japs as their MGs were crap.

If that's to much for you in EEO you might think about one more szenario, where Japan acts in this way. By trying to improve their abilities they might buy many German designs. This isn't totaly irrealistic as Japan already buyed many german designs and i.e. the german industry was adviced to give the Italiens the design plans for the PzKpfw. V Panther for free! The plannings were already done when Italy changed sides, but in other ways it would have started to produce the Panther in 44 or 45.
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el cid again
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RE: Ju 87 for RHS-EOS?

Post by el cid again »

ORIGINAL: Historiker

According to what I know, the Ju87D had a range of 1000km with 1800kg Bomb load. How many hexes are that? At least 5, no? So I see no reason why a EEO or EOS Japan shouldn't use this great possibility to have a DB with incredibly devastating bombs in the early years.
If it's range is still seen as to short, one could equip one DB units with D3A and one with Ju87D per ship, no?

REPLY: The range with max bomb load is not even in the game. The range with normal bomb load is 25% of transfer range and the range with reduced load is 33% of transfer range. RHS modifies that (we "cheat" by increasing transfer range) so normal bomb load is 34% and extended range is 42%. Even so, ranges for ETO aircraft are usually very low - if the range was 1000 km (and I have not looked it up) - that = 621.5 miles = 10 hexes = extended range of 3 hexes and normal range = 2 hexes. RHS would increase that to 677 miles = 11 hexes which is still an extended range of 3 and a normal range = 2 hexes. NEITHER will get max bomb load - not an option in WITP for many aircraft types - you will get probably 1 x 500 kg bomb at 3 hexes and 2 at 2 hexes. Just a guess - I have not looked up the normal load nor the range for any model - but that is ball park what we will get in game terms.

To your other suggestions:
As the Ju-88 is better than the He-111, we should only think about the Ju-88. It's bombload is with 3500kg nearly as high as the bombload of the G5N and it's range is with 2500km also nice enough to equip at least army bomber units.

REPLY: We studied options pretty carefully: I don't think you are right. You are confusing ranges with bomb loads with ranges to change bases. Nor do you get max load (normally - except for planes where max load IS normal load) - so again - I think you are not understanding how we get game factors.

Ju 188? nice, but the slot can perhaps be used better
Ar-234B would be realy some good improvement. Shall be added as it may give the Japs the possibilty to punch even through heavy CAP but I don't know how effectiv CAP stays against faster bombers.

REPLY: It is a bad idea to add a late war plane. We have way too many. That means the usual game NEVER gets to use it. It would work well - due to speed - but it has pretty lousy range when bombing. All early jets do.

He-177A5? Great! 7700kg bomb load, range of approx. 6000km

REPLY: This is an awful plane - as you probably know. Not sure we can fairly simulate a plane whose wings are as likely to fall off or which is very likely to burst into flames without being shot at? Its paper statistics do not reflect the reality - and it is awfully short ranged for PTO - again if you understand how we get operational range (which is NOT transfer range).

Me-262 why as attack bomber? Why not as interceptor?

REPLY: The date is for the Me-262 AS DESIGNED - which was a bomber. An interceptor version would be later in time. Making it very late war - see above. It will not get in 99 games out of 100. It also needs wierd engines - and Japan has a hard time with those. A scaled down version (kikka) to use the smaller engines was not impressive.

FW-200 is in game early enough and can carry more bombload than the Betty and the C3 has a even larger range than the G4M

REPLY: We looked at this very hard several times: Japan DID pay for this plane's development (and that is the ONLY reason Germany had it available when it needed it - it failed to develop it in time on German funding). But it is horrible for range, payload and it is not well protected or armed. Two Betty's (which use the same number of engines) go farther, and deliver a much better punch - 2 torpedoes. Its performance for a 4 engine aircraft is pretty dismal by Japanese standards. There are several threads in archive going into all of this. I have extensive materials on German aircraft- and we ultimately concluded Me-264 would have been a better investment - and one available at the same time - and one ALSO NOT funded by German funds at the time it could have been. But in game use, Nemo found its huge fuel requirements were unacceptable - and that is also accurate - so we went back to the G5N - which Japan can afford the supplies to use. [Germany only planned 60 of them, and never got any of the production run at all - never enough priority for aluminum, engines, plant or labor - in spite of several tries. See Luftwaffe Over America, a new book.]

Ju-290A why not? :)
But what abnout my suggestions?
What's about Fw 190, Me 110/410, and the Me 262 as interceptor?
I've already written about the Ju87...

REPLY: The Ki-44 was selected over the Me-109E - which was in Japan for flying tests and which was licenced for production. Francillon writes Japan had no reason to regret the choice - it is a much better interceptor. I only put the Me in EOS because it can enter production sooner - as a stopgap. The Fw is not available at the same time - and the later Me-262 suffers being too late for play in almost all games - nor is it a particularly great fighter. Japan has some very fine equipment by the time the Me-262 is available in fighter format.


The question is, how many japanese planes are better than german ones? A most intelligent Japan might have begun to buy the production rights of every German plane and of other german equipment, too.


REPLY: This is probably untrue. Japanese designed aircraft have several advantages in general: (a) they can enter production sooner - no delays for transit of plans, jigs, prototypes, etc - no delays for conversion to Japanese production methods - all of which take about a year if things go well; (b) they are designed (usually) with PTO range requirements in mind; (c) in many cases they perform better. The problem is that fanboys of German aircraft love to take some wonderful variant of something - and compare it with a Japanese something or other - and never throw in WHEN it might have been possible to have the wonderful something in JAPAN? When you compare planes by date of availability - and that isn't when it first flew in Germany - but a much later date - after it is politically released for export - after the negotiations are done - after the details are sent to Japan and converted - after essential jigs are either transported to Japan - or made in Japan (either way takes many months) - after working up the same sorts of things for engines - or substituting engines if that is possible (often not with German designs) - you end up with a situation where usually the realistic options for Japan put the German wonderful something in 3rd or 4th place on the list.

Just think about the Japanese Radar or it's MGs... A German MG42 would have been an extreme improvement to the Japs as their MGs were crap.

REPLY: Essentially false. First of all, this neglects that Japan adopted a number of German MG (and also cannon) for production in Japan. If it was really bad - it was bad in Germany as well. Second, in many cases Japanese weapons are in the same league - and it is a matter of opinion which is better? Third - Japan (like Germany) has FAR TOO MANY guns in production - and should have standardized on a much lower number - not sought to complicate matters by importing still more types.

If that's to much for you in EEO you might think about one more szenario, where Japan acts in this way. By trying to improve their abilities they might buy many German designs. This isn't totaly irrealistic as Japan already buyed many german designs and i.e. the german industry was adviced to give the Italiens the design plans for the PzKpfw. V Panther for free! The plannings were already done when Italy changed sides, but in other ways it would have started to produce the Panther in 44 or 45.

1) IRL Japan DID adopt some German aircraft - and it also designed aircraft based on German concepts. Where this is important, the aircraft appear in CVO and BBO families - as IRL. [Ki-76 is a somewhat modified Storch with even better STOL performance and more engine power; it appears as a carrier aircraft in CVO/BBO; Judy at least is a derivitive of He-118 - and some think so is Val; there are probably others.]

2) In EOS family we did consider all the above listed aircraft - plus a long list of fighters - and we indeed did adopt some of them. The Me-109E (in a slightly different form - the T or carrier model) was adopted. This choice had the merit of being licenced for production in Japan, having tooling in Japan, having its engine in production in Japan, having a senior German production engineer in Japan, and being part of the formal JAAF evaluation process IRL). We tried to do the Me-264 - and it failed in spite of superb performance - as just about impossible to feed - which IRL it would have been - even for Germany. But the German idea for the aircraft was a "neusance bomber" - one that you had to defend against - everywhere as its range is huge - but which need not raid often to force massive defensive investment. AAA and fighter assets in distant places do not hurt Germany! WITP players like Nemo wanted it for a US style offensive bomber - and Japan cannot afford to feed it - its huge range requires massive fuel - and I put that in as the price of the range/lift.

3) EEO IS considering adding still other types. THIS THREAD is an attempt to do that. But there will not be many of them - 1 or 2 slots as outlined above - with preference in favor of early types (available to affect the war) instead of late (which is just a dream - you never get there - and if you do - it is too late to matter). Tell me the one or two types that might actually be worth adding - and I will re-evaluate them in the context of all options - in great detail.
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RE: Ju 87 for RHS-EOS?

Post by Dili »

Most of that ranges are wrong.
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RE: Ju 87 for RHS-EOS?

Post by Historiker »

ad Ju87
I've just reviewed my date before I went to university, where I'm now. According to the data, the Ju 87D had a range with maximum bomb load (sic!) of 820 or 1000km - according to different sources. That should at least mean 4 hexes with a 1800kg Bomb, and usuallyI 5 hex with 1000kg, no?
I know that the Japs prefered a bigger number of smaller bombs to some big, but if they should use the Ju87D, they would use it because of it's huge bombload. When they get the data from germany for the plane, there is IMO no logical reason why they shouldn't buy it's bomb, too.

ad Ju88
AFAIK, It's combat range was 2500km, not it's transfer range. Even if it's maximum bombload was 500kg intern and 3000kg extern, it was usually used with 2500kg. 2,5t bombs with such a range should be an improvement for Japan, no?

ad Ar234
1100km range with 2000kg bomb load doesn't sound that bad, if it's dificult to intercept for the US, no? Extended range of 1600km. If this plane is able to penetrate even a so called "ÜberCAP", it should be added to the game, no? 1000-2000kg AP bombs unloaded over allied carriers can give the Japs a good chance to hold out longer, I guess

ad He177
hehe, you're right. The "Brennender Sarg" (burning casket), "Reichsfackel" (Reichstorch) oder "Reichsfeuerzeug" (Reichslighter) doesn't have it's nickname for no reasons. If it get's added it should be a little slower, with a little less range but with four seperate engines. But then it will take some (3 or more?) month to change the design to that conventional design. If the doubleengines are no longer, it is no longer that bad...

ad Me262
Te Me 262 was desigened as a fighter! Only when Hitler saw it at 26. November 1943, he demanded it to be used as bomber. Before that, no one ever thought about a serious bombload! As Messerschmitt continued the developement as a fighter, there is no reason why the interceptordesign shouldn't be given to Japan!
If EOS considers Japans Navy and Army to cooperate better than it was IRL, why shouldn't germany send the correct blueprint then, the interceptor? The J9Y was designed as a copy of the Me262, but it was not the Me262. As far as I know - without looking into the books - it was even designed without any Me262 blueprints. So if the blueprints of the Me262 are handed over to Japan, of course also the engine blueprints would be given to them.
But please explain me, why the Me 262 isn't a great fighter! It's firepower is beyond imagination and with it's speed it is able to avoid being shot down in most cases. Yes, it's not manouverable, but with that speed it is not so improtant.
Just imagine what Me 262 could do to B-29 with their 4 30mm cannon!

Fw-200
You are right. Considering the 4 engines, the Do 217 might be a better choice.



To the rest:
My problem with you is, that you - and only you decide, what is ahistoric and what not. EEO and EOS are itself far away from RL. So you decide that this is ahistoric thing is possible and this not...
There would be no problems in the early dates of production, when the developement of german planes gets coordinated with the Japs. That means, the Ju-290 (I guess that was the plane) flights from Manchuria into german occupied territory happen once a week with the actual plans, with models, machine parts, etc...
Of course, this never happend, I know that myself - but perhaps it should have happend. Just think about the Italien Fighters. If the Italiens would have accepted that they are simply not able to produce a fighter on the niveau of the german ones, they would have started much earlier to take over german designes. Or the Italien tanks... [8|] As I told, the Panther was intended to be produced in Italy when they changed sides.
In EEO and EOS, you already change the existing history in big parts. Yes, of course, all or at least most of it makes sense and were possible, but a full cooridnation in the axis arms production might have also been an option! It never happend, but EEO and EOS also never happend!
The Italien Panther is the best example, that IRL Germany was willing to give the war effort more priority than the interest of the industry, as for the Pantherpruduction it was forbidden to demand licence costs! Other examples are the undertaken try to deliver Uranium to Japan at the end of War in Europe...
According to my data, there's no doubt about the Japanese MGs - and the MG42 was the best MG of WW2 - without any doubt! Why shouldn't it's blueprints be delivered to Japan which stops it's production of the more expensive and crappy own MGs to equip it's troops with the MG42? THis is just one example.

If the axis cooridnate their arms production from the beginning of the tripacte, germany would perhaps have the A6M with a german engine and at least self sealing fuel tanks to escort bombers in the Battle of Britain while the Me 109 had to turn home when reaching London. When they coordinate it, why shouldn't they send the blueprints i.e. for the Me262 to Japan in an early stage?
All this never happend, but all of this was possible. So were are the borders of "this is to ahistoric for EOS/EEO"?
Perhaps a FAC = Full Axis Cooperation scenario makes sense if you don't like that in EOS/EEO?
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RE: Ju 87 for RHS-EOS?

Post by Hoplosternum »

ORIGINAL: Historiker

ad Ju87
I've just reviewed my date before I went to university, where I'm now. According to the data, the Ju 87D had a range with maximum bomb load (sic!) of 820 or 1000km - according to different sources. That should at least mean 4 hexes with a 1800kg Bomb, and usuallyI 5 hex with 1000kg, no?

Hi Historiker,
No! As El Cid explains here 1000km range translates - even with the extension EOS gives - only a Transfer range of 11. WITP hexes are 60 miles, so 1000km does not go that far! Look at the stock Hurricane and Spitfire V for what ETO ranges do in the Pacific.

1000km means an extend range of 3 and normal range of 2. The sort of range was fine in the ETO for coastal defence in the Med or supporting the ground troops. And even though at normal range it would be able to haul a 1800KG bomb (of course there probably is no slot available for this in EOS hence it would have to be converted into 2 or 3 500KG bombs).
Even with the 1800KG bomb that range is pretty short. It would make a reasonable short legged Kamikazi later on due to the bomb load but it's just not got the legs to be an effective PTO bomber IMO.
ORIGINAL: Historiker
ad Ju88
It's combat range was 2500km, not it's transfer range. Even if it's maximum bombload was 500kg intern and 3000kg extern, it was usually used with 2500kg. 2,5t bombs with such a range should be an improvement for Japan, no?

I am suspicious about the range. Not that it could not fly that far, but fly that far with 3.5tons of bombs. Germany had little need to carry bombs that far and there is a strong trade off between bomb load and fuel. And I don't recall the Ju 88 carrying far larger payloads over it's usual ranges of just a hundred miles or so which it would have been able to do if it could carry 3.5 for 2500kms!

Where this bomber would be useful (although I think the He 111 can do so as well) is that it could carry a Torpedo instead of bombs. A Torpedo carrying army plane would be useful to the Japanese. Even one thats range is not that great. It would be a shorter ranged Nell/Betty but if you could convert your Helan's and Sally's to them it would be a good option. But I would have thought that Sally's / Helen's could have been modified to carry Torpedos though if the Army had thought sea supremacy it's job.
ORIGINAL: Historiker
Just think about the Italien Fighters. If the Italiens would have accepted that they are simply not able to produce a fighter on the niveau of the german ones, they would have started much earlier to take over german designes. Or the Italien tanks... [8|] As I told, the Panther was intended to be produced in Italy when they changed sides.

Germany had lots of good designs. But they did not have a monopoly of them on the Axis side.

In fact Italy was producing some impressive kit by '43. I top notch interceptor the Macchi M.C.205 Veltro. They had a decent Tank and very good assault guns. Not to mention a flotilla of modern fast Battleships [:)] They did not really need German designs by then, just the industrial capacity to build it's own war materials and the will to carry on. They had neither and wanted out.

Japan too had pretty good designs by '44 onwards. But by then the war was lost bar the fighting. I think the FW-190 Focke Wulf would have made a pretty good addition to the Japanese line up. Stats wise the German late war fighters appeared closer to their US opponents than the Japanese did as many of their varients were tried and tested to take down 4E bombers - despite the much vaunted Frank. But the real problem for Japan at that time was building the good designs they had in sufficent numbers and even more crucially training enough pilots well enough to get the most out of them.
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RE: Ju 87 for RHS-EOS?

Post by el cid again »

ORIGINAL: Historiker

ad Ju87
I've just reviewed my date before I went to university, where I'm now. According to the data, the Ju 87D had a range with maximum bomb load (sic!) of 820 or 1000km - according to different sources. That should at least mean 4 hexes with a 1800kg Bomb, and usuallyI 5 hex with 1000kg, no?
I know that the Japs prefered a bigger number of smaller bombs to some big, but if they should use the Ju87D, they would use it because of it's huge bombload. When they get the data from germany for the plane, there is IMO no logical reason why they shouldn't buy it's bomb, too.

REPLY: OK - I will look it up: I think Dili already reported above and he knows his airplanes - but I will check. I doubt a Ju-87 had much of a bomb load - it is a small aircraft. I also think it is all external - and that pretty much means it can't go very far loaded up - external is a big drag issue.

ad Ju88
AFAIK, It's combat range was 2500km, not it's transfer range. Even if it's maximum bombload was 500kg intern and 3000kg extern, it was usually used with 2500kg. 2,5t bombs with such a range should be an improvement for Japan, no?

REPLY: I have this - albiet in km (I think in km) - in a spreadsheet. I will check.

ad Ar234
1100km range with 2000kg bomb load doesn't sound that bad, if it's dificult to intercept for the US, no? Extended range of 1600km. If this plane is able to penetrate even a so called "ÜberCAP", it should be added to the game, no? 1000-2000kg AP bombs unloaded over allied carriers can give the Japs a good chance to hold out longer, I guess

REPLY: I am skeptical it carries this load that far - but I don't remember. I have an entire book on this one aircraft - so I can check. But machts nichts: we have too few slots to even think about a late war aircraft which probably cannot reach production status in Japan even in 1945. I will look it up for the record only - it would be 1946 or later before it was licenced, jigged up, with engines in production - etc in Japan.

ad He177
hehe, you're right. The "Brennender Sarg" (burning casket), "Reichsfackel" (Reichstorch) oder "Reichsfeuerzeug" (Reichslighter) doesn't have it's nickname for no reasons. If it get's added it should be a little slower, with a little less range but with four seperate engines. But then it will take some (3 or more?) month to change the design to that conventional design. If the doubleengines are no longer, it is no longer that bad...

REPLY: There IS a separate engine version of the He-177 - I forget which build - but it is years later in time. By the time it could be built in Japan - it is too late to be considered a good performer. Japan has Ki-91 and G8s available late war.

ad Me262
Te Me 262 was desigened as a fighter! Only when Hitler saw it at 26. November 1943, he demanded it to be used as bomber. Before that, no one ever thought about a serious bombload! As Messerschmitt continued the developement as a fighter, there is no reason why the interceptordesign shouldn't be given to Japan!

REPLY: I try not to interfere with der Fuhrer! Not while he rules Deutchland. His decisions are the ones that matter - nicht vahr? But I have a book entirely devoted to Messerschmidt projects - so I can check to see if a version might not have existed sooner? Another problem is that clearence to send an Me-262 to Japan (one was on board U-234 in pieces) was only obtained in 1945. How do we get permission to export a jet to Japan before that?


If EOS considers Japans Navy and Army to cooperate better than it was IRL, why shouldn't germany send the correct blueprint then, the interceptor? The J9Y was designed as a copy of the Me262, but it was not the Me262. As far as I know - without looking into the books - it was even designed without any Me262 blueprints. So if the blueprints of the Me262 are handed over to Japan, of course also the engine blueprints would be given to them.

REPLY: First of all, I think it is a WITP assumption the war in Europe is NOT changed - because it is hard to know what would happen if it were changed? So I assume it is NOT changed - at least to the extent we don't have to change it when we do something in PTO. In EOS family, we DO assume greater commitment of Allied resources to PTO delays the surrender of Germany, and that in turn means units don't transfer ETO to PTO in 1945. But mainly I try to keep ETO as was - for the sake of not opening a can of worms (we then have no idea what the impacts would be).

But please explain me, why the Me 262 isn't a great fighter! It's firepower is beyond imagination and with it's speed it is able to avoid being shot down in most cases. Yes, it's not manouverable, but with that speed it is not so improtant.
Just imagine what Me 262 could do to B-29 with their 4 30mm cannon!

REPLY: It is true that firepower is an asset - and we can model that well. But if a cannon was all that mattered, a P-39 or P-400 would be a great fighter plane. Maneuverabilty does matter - and in particular it is critical in WITP code. But jets suffer from other problems we cannot model: they are short legged and require long take off runs. The Me-262 was successfully hunted by aircraft like the P-51 - operating far from home - simply because the propeller planes loitered until the moment the Me was in a vulnerable position. Still - I have this aircraft rated in a more sophisticated system - in my spreadsheet - so I will look up the values.


Fw-200
You are right. Considering the 4 engines, the Do 217 might be a better choice.



To the rest:
My problem with you is, that you - and only you decide, what is ahistoric and what not. EEO and EOS are itself far away from RL. So you decide that this is ahistoric thing is possible and this not...


Well - not exactly - and certainly not totally. But in the end, someone must decide. That is what a coordinator does.
RHS was born because I found the CHS process of needing plank holder approval - even after a change was "adopted" - too frustrating - and I am determined not to let that occur. In fact - RHS has ENDED development - so it is a courtesy we are even looking at this: it will delay us - and require a complete redo of the plane art (it is combined) if we adopt even one change. And I don't do the art. You are too late for the cut - but instead of saying so - I agreed to think about it.
Further - the discussion is not over. I can be persuaded - and many things are in (or were for a while in) RHS that were not my own preference. But note that I am much more persuaded when there is more than one advocate of a change. If there is an actual consensus - that is difficult for me to ignore - even if I wish to ignore it. So in addition to persuading with logic and facts, also win some converts to your point of view. So long as you alone want a change you must get me to agree that it is indeed a better representation of what we are trying to do.

And note that you did not define RHS, RHS standards, nor any RHS scenario. So please forgive me for wanting to honor the definitions that have long existed. Since you are correctly advocating a change in EEO - or possibly EOS family - I thought you had a handle on the EOS family assumptions. But just how well a change fits those assumptions is probably best decided by the author of them. Since RHS is an open system - and since I claim that the "authors" are the Matrix Forum RHS Team - a team that self selects - I consider you an author - even if a late comer to the process. I do not feel free to disregard your opinion - and I have not done that - and I will not do that. I hope my explanations help you to appreciate the RHS system - and I don't mean to imply that my point of view is absolutely rigid. I am notoriously argumentative, but I also change things under the pressure of facts, logic and consensus.
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RE: Ju 87 for RHS-EOS?

Post by el cid again »


[quote]ORIGINAL: Hoplosternum


[quote]ORIGINAL: Historiker


Where this bomber would be useful (although I think the He 111 can do so as well) is that it could carry a Torpedo instead of bombs. A Torpedo carrying army plane would be useful to the Japanese. Even one thats range is not that great. It would be a shorter ranged Nell/Betty but if you could convert your Helan's and Sally's to them it would be a good option. But I would have thought that Sally's / Helen's could have been modified to carry Torpedos though if the Army had thought sea supremacy it's job.

[quote]

In ALL forms of WITP (not just RHS) there is a Ki-67 ARMY plane with torpedo capability. There was even a "torpedo regiment" specializing in joint missions with JNAF in the JAAF.

In RHSEOS family, JAAF may be assigned G3M and G4M bombers - with torpedo loadouts. Some units DEFAULT INITIAL aircraft assignment are with these bombers - although I assigned them with 8 x 100 kg bombs vice 1 x torpedo in most or all cases. But a PLAYER can change that! [If you "double convert" a unit - to any other bomber - then back to G3M or G4M - it will pick up the default loadout of 1 torpedo]

el cid again
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RE: Ju 87 for RHS-EOS?

Post by el cid again »

ORIGINAL: Hoplosternum


Japan too had pretty good designs by '44 onwards. But by then the war was lost bar the fighting. I think the FW-190 Focke Wulf would have made a pretty good addition to the Japanese line up. Stats wise the German late war fighters appeared closer to their US opponents than the Japanese did as many of their varients were tried and tested to take down 4E bombers - despite the much vaunted Frank. But the real problem for Japan at that time was building the good designs they had in sufficent numbers and even more crucially training enough pilots well enough to get the most out of them.

The Japanese suffered from industrial damage late in the war - as indeed so did Germany. They suffered from lack of aviation spirit. That means not only no fuel for operations, but no fuel for training. It was difficult to get a good unit late in the war. It was done - but only by "robbing Peter to pay Paul" - stripping experienced veterans out of other units - and that hurt those units. When this was done, both JAAF and JNAF could, on rare occasions, be a big problem - putting up interceptors well coordinated against whatever was inbound that day - by the use of recon planes (which I don't think we can model in WITP). They were good enough that they could spread out over a vast distance - and whoever was closest could close and engage effectively - without waiting for assembly - something we would not have attempted. Late war aircraft armed with 20mm and 30mm cannon were probably good bomber destroyers. Even the huge bomber based "fighter" may have been effective in its designed role - we cannot know because B-29s stopped their design high altitude raiding. It certainly appears that the J7W might have been effective - even if it was not operational in time to be sure.

That said, the FW-190 - and its TA derivitive - were superb. But try to remember that a brand new fighter in Germany is not yet available in Japan. While political willingness to release the design increases as the war wears on, there remains the problem of getting the technical information over there - and then working it up. That is anything but easy - and if I had my way - it should not be certain to get there EVER: the Me-262 didn't actually make it to Japan for example. It ended up in the USA. Some documents did make it - and Japan was able to work with those - but only after salvage of a sunken submarine - which of course took time. So you cannot look at a ETO paper date and realistically say it applies to PTO - it would not have worked that way.
el cid again
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RE: Ju 87 for RHS-EOS?

Post by el cid again »

Ju-88A bomber index (composite value) = 1.4
Max Operating Altitude speed 470 kmh.
Service Ceiling 8.2 km (Operational Altitude 6.0 km)
No Load Range 3002 km (more or less WITP transfer range).
Normal Load Range 1789 km (this is not range with maximum load - and it is calculated assuming normal load is carried only half the distance)
Max Load Range 786 km (this isn't even possible in WITP - but it shows what happens when you carry max load - range drops dramatically. Again it is calculated assuming bombs are carried only half the distance, then the plane returns to base.)
Initial ROC 235 meters / minute (laden).
Sea Level Agility at normal load: 0.23
Sea Level Agility at maximum load: 0.16
5 km altitude Agility at normal load: 0.11
5 km altitude Agility at maximum load: 0.08
10 km agility not rated because aircraft cannot reach 10 km altitude.
Normal bomb load: 500 kg.
Maximum bomb load: 2000 kg.


ALL my ranges have ZERO allowance for reserves: my game systems calculate wind and other issues, and players who attempt to fly to full range almost always lose the planes! OPERATIONAL ranges should be reduced by 5, 10 or 15% - depending on how many you want to risk losing.

RHS range = 33 hexes transfer - 11 hexes with 250 kg bombload - 8 hexes with 500 kg bombload ( to work with code we would have to define bombload = 2 x 250 kg bombs - so we get 1 at extended range)
el cid again
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RE: Ju 87 for RHS-EOS?

Post by el cid again »

FW-200 selected data:

FW-200B bomber index 4.2 Normal Load Range 3650 km No Load Range 4564 km Max OpAlt Speed 370 kmh
FW-200C3 bomber index 4.3 Normal Load Range 3556 km No Load Range 4441 km Max OpAlt Speed 360 kmh
FW-200C4 bomber index 10.2 Normal Load Range 3507 km No Load Range 4379 km Max OpAlt Speed 355 kmh
FW-200C8 bomber index 7.5 Normal Load Range 2566 km No Load Range 4379 km Max OpAlt Speed 355 kmh

[Note the impact of large heavy objects under the wings in the C8 Case]


FW-200 is wierd: NORMAL BOMB LOAD (except C8) is ZERO bombs!!!! This is in its recon only mode.
Max bomb load is only 1000 kg, 1250 kg, 4000 kg and 4000 kg respectively - but we would need to adjust things - as there is no provision in WITP for a plane to use max bomb load. The C8 carries 1540 kg to normal load range.

RHS Range for B model (the one actually paid for by and licenced to Japan) = 51 hexes transfer - 17 hexes recon only with zero bombload (but would be 250 kg because of code IF we said normal load was 2x250 kg bombs) - 12 hexes with 500 kg bombload (ie 2x250 kg bombs). Other models would have still less range - but the late C8 would have 3 x 500 kg bombs - or maybe 2 x 800 kg bombs to normal range so we would have 1x 800 kg at extended range.
el cid again
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RE: Ju 87 for RHS-EOS?

Post by el cid again »

Ju-87 selected data:

Ju-87A Bomber Index 0.5 Max Op Alt Speed 320 kmh Service Ceiling 7.0 km Tactical Altitude 5.1 km
Ju-87B Bomber Index 2.5 Max Op Alt Speed 383 kmh Service Ceiling 8.0 km Tactical Altitude 5.9 km
Ju-87D Bomber Index 1.8 Max Op Alt Speed 410 kmh Service Celining 7.29 km Tactical Altitude 5.4 km

Ju-87A No Load Range 998 km Normal Load Range 848 km Normal Bomb Load 250 kg Max 500 kg
Ju-87B No Load Range 789 km Normal Load Range 671 km Normal Bomb Load 250 kg Max 1000 kg
Ju-87D No Load Range 1535 km Normal Load Range 821 km Normal Bomb Load 500 kg Max 1800 kg

Note in WITP you NEVER get Max bomb load (except it is a factor in terms of logistics for base size and supply requirements) [But we can sometimes do this - particularly when normal load = maximum load]

You would ONLY get the Normal bomb load - and IF we gave it that as 1x250 kg I am not sure what you get for extended range - should be 1x100 kg bomb. For D model you have 2x250 kg bombs so you get 1x250 at extended range. [We could give it 4x60 kg bombs so you would get 2x60 kg at extended range]


RHS Range: Ju-87A 11 Hexes Transfer, 3 hexes extended with 100 (or 120) kg, 2 hexes normal with 250 (or 240) kg bombload
RHS Range: Ju-87B 8 Hexes Transfer, 2 hexes extended and/or normal with 250 kg bombload
RHS Range: Ju-87D 17 Hexes Transfer, 5 hexes extended with 250 kg, 4 hexes normal with 500 kg bombload

So you now see why a Ju-87 is not impressive in WITP terms - even though we exaggerate bomber ranges by 9% in RHS (to get the right proportion for operational range). Your thinking was based on carrying max load (not even possible in our system unless we "cheat" in some way) to ferry range - which no plane ever can do IRL. But I show you what range would be below if we "cheat" and permit full load for the D model.

Note that I do not control WITP design - just mod design. IF we adjusted Ju-87D (available late) to carry max load - it would reduce the range of the aircraft to 8 hexes transfer, 2 hex extended and/or normal. I would carry 2x800 kg bombs and 2x100 kg bombs. Or we could carry 1x4,000 pound bomb (just over 1800 kg). [The Ju-87D max load range was almost exactly half its normal load range: 411 km vs 821 km]

These sorts of tradeoffs for range and bombload are universal and apply to all aircraft of all nations in all eras.
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RE: Ju 87 for RHS-EOS?

Post by Historiker »

Babes'n'Beer time, I will answer tomorrow [8D]
Without any doubt: I am the spawn of evil - and the Bavarian Beer Monster (BBM)!

There's only one bad word and that's taxes. If any other word is good enough for sailors; it's good enough for you. - Ron Swanson
Dili
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RE: Ju 87 for RHS-EOS?

Post by Dili »

JU 88 A1
 
A1: 1102lb offensive load to 2285miles w/Max internal Fuel; 5291lb max offensive load to 782miles w/ "Minimum" Internal Fuel
 
A4: 20x50kg or 10x50kg+1220lit (322gal) or 1220lit+680lit internal tanks  external 4x1000 kg points 2 or 4(diferent sources) are wet for 900L drop tanks.
 
 
 
JU 87 B2  Max weight: 4390kg
             External Weapon Load:500kg
             Internal Weapon Amno:48kg
             Gas:370kg(477L)
             Oil: 43kg
             Crew : 200kg
             Empty Weight:3290kg
 
             Range at 4000m w/ 500kg load 500km
             Cruise speed 175mph
 
Comon loads: 1x250kg or 500kg +4x50kg
no able to use drop tanks; only R version that came in 41
 
D1  late 41/Jan 42 most with B model undercarriages except newest models, plagged by some newby problems.
Weights(w/B undercarriage): Empty:4904(4403)
                                       Crew: 200kg
                                       Fuel:  621kg(780L)
                                       Oil:?
                                       Internal Weapon Amno:?
                                       Normal loaded:5905(5145)
                                       Max overload:6605(5805)
 
                                       510miles at normal loads, 198mph cruise. 954miles max(ferry) range.
 
                                       Comon loads 500kg+2x250kg or 1000kg+4x50kg.
                             
D3 May 42 much improved armoring and extended to engine.
 
D5  Begin-mid43 appear to be in service; Intended for attack, no dive brakes in most; wing 20mm MG151 instead of Mgs, More wing area, Double 81Z Mgs at back already in D1 and D3 but not always.
 
The plane was a dog with 1800kg(one just needs to find the wing loading with it), also it was impossible to take off in most soft fields it operated. The normal load was 1000kg even then 100% more pratical load than B version.
 
Luftwaffe: The Fighter they had were completely inadequate for defensive work. The Me109 couldnt grow much more in 43 the G version was the last one that it made a real improvement after that the law of diminishing returns started to play. FW 190 was not a good plane at altitude where the allied bombers travelled. They went testing Fiat G.55 and later G.56 variant proposal was to be the German propellor fighter if Italy didnt went down, the plane also needed to be made in less than 10000 hours and apparently wasnt possible or could have been just German Industrial corporativism. In the end Me109 continued to be produced but no late model could cope well with Allied late ones. Also it was vey accident prone.
 
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RE: Ju 87 for RHS-EOS?

Post by Dili »

Ju 88 A1 Range Vs Weapon Load Vs Fuel

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