Needs a Patch

[Ike99]

I know you are knowledgeable about the technical aspects of UV and it's workings, but don't tell me what happened in games that occurred that you know nothing of. I have no desire to have another PBEM with you as a test, but thanks for the offer anyhow. I'm not saying that there aren't things that need remodeling, maybe a change in the range of release point of torps would be a good start and a better reflection of command structure or lack thereof.

Right, that´s my point. By saying you sunk this or that many ships with the LL you make it sound as if there isn´t a problem.

There is. Even from the get go the Japanese are outgunned even at night and this is primarily because of the accuracy of the Long Lance.

[tocaff]

I never said that I achieved victory by the Long Lance or gunfire, just that I did.  Contact Lopo, what do you have to lose?  I'm not disputing your claim, why would think that I would lie?  What do I have to gain?  

[decaro]

ORIGINAL: Ike99
... Even from the get go the Japanese are outgunned even at night and this is primarily because of the accuracy of the Long Lance.

Are you saying the UV programmers over-compensated the Allies to off-set the LL attack, or that the LL is ineffective, or both? My experience w/the Eastern Solomon scenario vs. the IJN AI doesn't confirm this, at least not at close range.

If there is a hard-coded bias against the IJN, I don't think there's anything you can do about it in the editor. Your only alternative is to bring this matter to the CF development team as a CF beta tester; that's our "patch".

[Ike99]

How about a "real world" UV test? Are you familiar w/Eastern Solomons (Scenario #2)?

I´ve set all my aircraft to training 100% Joe so they don´t interfere. I have a force of 4 Japanese cruisers and 8 destroyers standing by at Rabaul ready to make a run to Lunga, all armed with Long Lance.

You set a force of 4 allied cruisers and 8 allied destroyers in Lunga and tell me when your ready and I´ll send mine in and let´s see the results.

I sent the turn to...joedecaro@hotmail.com

[decaro]

Ike, I have had trouble w/attachments in Hotmail ever since they "improved " my MSN service; send all future turns to joedecaro1@juno.com

[Ike99]

Ike, I have had trouble w/attachments in Hotmail ever since they "improved " my MSN service; send all future turns to joedecaro1@juno.com

Ok, but you did get my first turn yes?

I did just run this through PBEM Joe myself and heres what I got first run...

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 08/25/42

Weather: Clear

Night Time Surface Combat, near Lunga at 38,40

Japanese Ships
CA Chokai
CA Aoba
CA Kinugasa
CA Furutaka, Shell hits 1
DD Kagero, Shell hits 2, on fire
DD Isokaze, Shell hits 1
DD Kawakaze, Shell hits 1
DD Umikaze
DD Suzukaze
DD Mutsuki
DD Yayoi, Shell hits 2, on fire
DD Uzuki

Allied Ships
CA Portland
CA New Orleans, Shell hits 1
CA Minneapolis
CA San Francisco
DD Monssen, Shell hits 1
DD Aaron Ward
DD Buchanan
DD Lang
DD Stack
DD Sterett
DD Maury, Shell hits 1
DD Selfridge
------------------------------------------------


Japanese were out shell hit by 7 shells to 3, About what I expected as I see a typical 2-1 in shell hits. All Long Lance torpedos missed even though the fight started at 8,000 yards. It was Tanaka -vs- Lee

[:D]

Not even close to what the situation actually was. If I had put that starting Allied BB in this force the Japanese would have been ripped to pieces.

But anyways, we´ll run through it and you´ll see what I mean.

[decaro]

ORIGINAL: Ike99

Ike, I have had trouble w/attachments in Hotmail ever since they "improved " my MSN service; send all future turns to joedecaro1@juno.com

Ok, but you did get my first turn yes?

Yes, but I sent 4 CAs w/only 4 -- not 8 -- DDs!

No problem: re-downloaded your original attachment and resent 12 ships: 4 CAs + 8 DDs -- to Lunga, but this won't reproduce a 15 ship bombment TF vs. surface TF at Lunga.

Anyway, it's a start.

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: Ike99

How about a "real world" UV test? Are you familiar w/Eastern Solomons (Scenario #2)?

I´ve set all my aircraft to training 100% Joe so they don´t interfere. I have a force of 4 Japanese cruisers and 8 destroyers standing by at Rabaul ready to make a run to Lunga, all armed with Long Lance.

You set a force of 4 allied cruisers and 8 allied destroyers in Lunga and tell me when your ready and I´ll send mine in and let´s see the results.

I sent the turn to...joedecaro@hotmail.com

Might I suggest testing with smaller TF as well. 12 ships is a large surface TF for night fighting. IIRC there are coordination effects associated with larger TF. This could be a factor. I found that the best results-(surprise and crossing the T) come with smaller forces. Not more than 8 ships. Try 6 as well. Try TF with only Light cruisers and DDs. Then try DDs only. You need to really mix up the tests a bit.

And you might as well mix your commanders up for a complete series of test. A cautious Allied commander seem to me to be less likely to get torpedoed than an aggressive commander-for obvious reasons.

I once had Tanaka with a seven ship TF ( one CL and rest DDs) surprise a larger TF, launch torpedoes and withdraw without any surface combat. Can't remember if it was UV or WITP but it was the only time that I have ever seen it.

[decaro]

I've also seen some surprising results between an IJN fast crusier TF and a larger Allied surface TF, but I was thinking more in terms of a 15 ship IJN bombardment force vs. an equivalent Allied surface fleet just off Lunga; that was the situation when I played this scenario vs. the AI, and the IJN did more than hold it's own.

By today our two PBEM TFs should meet at Lunga, and I'm currently waiting for Ike's email reply to see what happened.

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

I agree that gunnery radar is a great equalizer to the superior IJN night fighting abilities, but shouldn't that technology figure later in the conflict, i.e., Leyte Gulf, not Savo Island.

I've noticed many IJN night torpedo attacks at distances way too long for the Long Lance, essentially wasting these torpedoes and the turn.

It's doubtful Wood will be producing a patch for UV anytime soon, esp w/CF still in development, but can anything be tweaked in the editor to correct this situation at the player, not programmer, level? Or is the problem related to the surface combat algorithm for getting "surprised"?

Actually you don't need to wait till as late as Leyte for US radfar to become an effective tool. It was what gave them a victory with inferior forces at the Battle of Empress Augusta Bay, but it definietly should NOT be decisive earlier than that. I agree that most of the time I have been surprised at how well the US does in the early night battles. Several times I have outshot the Japanese in night battles at Guadalcanal.

We are also seeing the law of averages at work here. I have had fights where every last cruiser involved limped home with a LL hole in it's hull.

[decaro]

Sorry guys, but I haven't heard from Ike since he helped shut down a UV thread several days ago; he's apparently in "virtual" seclusion and our Long Lance tests w/the Eastern Solomons scenario have abruptly ended.

[decaro]

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

... We are also seeing the law of averages at work here. I have had fights where every last cruiser involved limped home with a LL hole in it's hull.

... I've experienced numerous night surface engagements vs. the AI at close range near the 'Canal where a LL attack would get good hits on several of my capital ships, despite my destroyer screen. These capital ships were either sunk, scuttled, or limped home where they were immediately sent to PH.

Same here: the probability and results of a Long lance attack is a dice role that incorporates commanders, experience, distance, etc.

[decaro]

Using the Eastern Solomons scenario for a virtual "real world' test of night surface action, tocaff and I set-up TFs to meet at Lunga. To ensure a night action, I sent a bombardment TF under the aggressive Tanaka composed of 4 CAs, 1 CL and 10 DDs -- tocaff had a similar fleet under Lee waiting off-shore from Lunga.

However, Tanaka's TF was apparently too fast and he and Lee had only a fleeting naval engagement of no consequence.

So I sent other IJN fleets and got the following:

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 08/29/42

Weather: Partly Cloudy

Night Time Surface Combat, near Lunga at 38,40

Japanese Ships
CS Chitose
BB Mutsu, Shell hits 4
CA Tone, Shell hits 1
CA Takao
CA Atago, Shell hits 2, on fire
CA Maya
CA Myoko
CA Haguro
CL Katori, Shell hits 1
CL Yura, Shell hits 1
DD Kuroshio
DD Oyashio, Shell hits 2, on fire
DD Hayashio, Shell hits 1
DD Yamagumo, Shell hits 1, on fire
DD Asagumo

Allied Ships
CA Portland, Shell hits 3
CA Salt Lake City, Shell hits 2, on fire
CA New Orleans
CA Minneapolis, Shell hits 2
CA San Francisco
DD Grayson
DD Monssen
DD Buchanan
DD Farenholt
DD Benham, Shell hits 1
DD Ellet
DD Lang, Shell hits 2, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DD Sterett
DD Balch
DD Dale


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Lunga at 38,40

Japanese Ships
CS Chitose, Shell hits 1
BB Mutsu, Shell hits 2
CA Tone, Shell hits 1
CA Takao, Shell hits 2
CA Atago, on fire
CA Maya, Shell hits 1
CA Myoko
CA Haguro
CL Katori, Shell hits 1
CL Yura, Shell hits 2
DD Kuroshio
DD Oyashio, Shell hits 1, on fire
DD Hayashio
DD Yamagumo, Shell hits 5, on fire, heavy damage
DD Asagumo, Shell hits 1, on fire

Allied Ships
CA Portland, Shell hits 2
CA Salt Lake City, Shell hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
CA New Orleans, Shell hits 1
CA Minneapolis, on fire
CA San Francisco
DD Grayson, Shell hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DD Monssen, Shell hits 3, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DD Buchanan
DD Farenholt
DD Benham
DD Ellet
DD Lang, and is sunk
DD Sterett
DD Balch, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DD Dale


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Naval bombardment of Lunga, at 38,40

Allied aircraft

Allied aircraft losses
P-400 Airacobra x 1 destroyed
P-400 Airacobra x 1 damaged

Airbase hits 6
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 34

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The IJN TF took 30 hits to Lee's 20, but 3 of Lee's DDs each took a fish, resulting in heavy damage, even sinking one DD during the 2nd engagement. Although both sides had ships on fire, Lee's TF had more ships w/heavy damage.

Despite the successfull Allied interdiction, the IJN bombardment TF still managed to shell Henderson field.

(The above results were comperable to a game I recently had w/this scenario against the AI in which (2) 15 ship TFs engaged off Lunga at night w/the IJN taking more gunnery hits, but also putting 3 fish into 3 DDs.)

Conclusions so far: although gunnery radar can off-set the chance of a Long Lance attack, it can't stop the IJN from scoring its fish, esp. among Allied screening vessels. Despite taking more gunnery hits, IJN Long Lance torps inflicted more damage to the interdicting Allied fleet.

More data to follow.

[Ike99]

Conclusions so far: although gunnery radar can off-set the chance of a Long Lance attack, it can't stop the IJN from scoring its fish, esp. among Allied screening vessels. Despite taking more gunnery hits, IJN Long Lance torps inflicted more damage to the interdicting Allied fleet.

Joe, scoring one torpedo in one battle and two in another while sinking one destroyer total in one night is not ¨scoring their fish¨

This is exactly what I told you I come up with and it´s not close to historic.

You even had him outnumbered in cruisers and had a battleship to boot! The result was pathetic for the Japanese. Your going to control the waters around Guadalcanal with that, sinking one Destroyer? What if he had a battleship too?

You and Tocaff need to look up and examine the night battles around Guadalcanal to get a historic context first and look at them in an ¨unbiased¨ fasion.[;)]

The Japanese had sea control at night for quite a while around Guadalcanal for good reason. The LL was deadly and they knew how to use it. They were always outnumbered and out gunned. It was the big equalizer and they sunk more than one destroyer with it.

Battle of Savo Island, August 9, 1942
Battle of Cape Esperance, October 11, 1942
First Naval Battle of Guadalcanal, November 13, 1942
Second Naval Battle of Guadalcanal, November 14, 1942
Battle of Tassafaronga, November 30, 1942

[decaro]

Unfortunately, the Solomons scenario is very short and our game is over. Final results for Lee:
3 Long Lance hits in the action
1 CA scuttled
1 DD sunk
1 DD lt. damage
1 DD hvy. damage


As for IJN system/floatation damage:
1 CS/3 CAs w/mod. syst damage
1 DD mod. syst damage, 2 DDs w/heavy syst./float. damage

The IJN syst. damage can be attributed to a lower damage control rating than the USN. However, the bottom line is that the USN lost a CA/DD w/another DD out of action, while the IJN has only 2 DDs out of action, albeit indefinately. The IJN TF also managed to shell Lunga, causing considerable damage to the airfield.

Game, set and match to the IJN ... for now.

[decaro]

ORIGINAL: Ike99

Joe, scoring one torpedo in one battle and two in another while sinking one destroyer total in one night is not ¨scoring their fish¨

Well, they didn't exactly miss, did they Ike? For the record, the USN scored no fish at all during the test.

ORIGINAL: Ike99
... This is exactly what I told you I come up with and it´s not close to historic.

Exactly what you told me? Besides, UV is a recreation of the PTO, not a simulation of historic naval battles; CaW is closer to a battle simulator than UV.

ORIGINAL: Ike99
.. The Japanese had sea control at night for quite a while around Guadalcanal for good reason. The LL was deadly and they knew how to use it. They were always outnumbered and out gunned. It was the big equalizer and they sunk more than one destroyer with it.

Todd had to retreat w/Lee for more ammo and ships, leaving me w/2 strong TFs -- and one remnant -- controlling the "slot": the IJN can bombard and reinforce the 'Canal at will. But again, UV is a recreation, not a simulation.

As Avenger crews used to say, "If you want to sink ships, send us". Torpedoes sink ships: all the IJN CVs lost at Midway had to be scuttled by Long Lance torps., and these same fish claimed 2 USN ships in our brief test. You don't have to have a declared LL attack to sink ships w/a LL torp., and against the AI, I have lost capital ships to these fish despite a DD screen.

It's only a game, Ike; UV doesn't claim to reproduce history exactly, but there's plenty of room for "tweaking" surface combat. As you're a beta for CS, perhaps you can pass this info on to someone who can actually do something about it, not just argue over it.

[Prince of Eckmühl]

ORIGINAL: Ike99

The Japanese had sea control at night for quite a while around Guadalcanal for good reason. The LL was deadly and they knew how to use it. They were always outnumbered and out gunned. It was the big equalizer and they sunk more than one destroyer with it.

The bold print edit of your post is mine. It's factually inaccurate. Do you ever bother to research details such as this before you post?

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

[tocaff]

Oh oh here we go again.  

[Ike99]

Oh oh here we go again.

Nope, you know what. The night fighting and Long Lance torpedo is perfect in the game...enjoy.

[tocaff]

PHEW!