Are Paper Wargames killing Computer Wargames?

[Jeffrey H.]

ORIGINAL: geozero

There's another aspect of playing paper games... I just love the feel of standing around a huge map and seeing the battle unfold, much like a field commander would.  There is (as has been said) something inherently pure and simple about holding a unit in your hand and moving it or rolling dice.  If you're lucky enough to play face to face on a paper game it is just a great experience, both social and educational. 

There's way too many game store that have gone out of business... here in SoCal I know of only one left.  It's sad.  I've been buying more papergames lately, and using vassal system to actually help develop and design some of my own game ideas, which I may release as paper games.

There's one left ? Where is it ?

There are a few here in San Diego, but they are hybrid shops that usually host Warhammer 40k and other types of games that kids play these days. I've always wanted to show up there and play out a game of AH "The Russian Campaign" jst to show them what else might be out there in the gaming landscape.

Aside from that ConSimWorld is the true home of FTF wargaming.

[geozero]

ORIGINAL: Jeffrey H.

ORIGINAL: geozero

There's another aspect of playing paper games... I just love the feel of standing around a huge map and seeing the battle unfold, much like a field commander would.  There is (as has been said) something inherently pure and simple about holding a unit in your hand and moving it or rolling dice.  If you're lucky enough to play face to face on a paper game it is just a great experience, both social and educational. 

There's way too many game store that have gone out of business... here in SoCal I know of only one left.  It's sad.  I've been buying more papergames lately, and using vassal system to actually help develop and design some of my own game ideas, which I may release as paper games.

There's one left ? Where is it ?

There are a few here in San Diego, but they are hybrid shops that usually host Warhammer 40k and other types of games that kids play these days. I've always wanted to show up there and play out a game of AH "The Russian Campaign" jst to show them what else might be out there in the gaming landscape.

Aside from that ConSimWorld is the true home of FTF wargaming.

Brookhurst Hobbies in Garden Grove (Orange County) which is about 12+/- miles from me. Website at http://www.brookhursthobbies.com/

They still have a decent selection of games and used to hold game nights (not sure anymore). I've picked up a few new games there.

There's also ebay.com but I still like to browse a physical store... guess I'm a touchy-feely kind of person. [:D]

[geozero]

BTW Jeffrey - Russian Campaign is still one of my favorite AH games...haven't playe it in years.  Remember when I bought it... one of the first games I bought.  Would love to play it with you one day... maybe Vassal can put together a module.  Not the same as actually being there... but hey...

[Custer1961]

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

ORIGINAL: Custer

In the early 90’s, the paper wargames “industry” was in the doldrums. Many said it was because wargamers were switching to the computer.

Disagree. Who said this?

Avalon Hill died due to messing with their brand - replacing mounted maps with paper.

Dazooz says it very well.

Hi Adam,
I made the statement based on memory. If I recall correctly, Dean Essig of The Gamers (a paper wargame company) had a house magazine called Operations. Amazingly, he gave specific sales numbers on his games, as well as, profit and loss. He also openly discussed his problems with the down turn in the early 90's and showed it openly with his sales numbers.

Also, if i recall correctly, Fire and Movement had a few editorials talking about the down turn at that time.

I no longer have these magazines, so I cannot really prove it. And there is every chance my memory is faulty.

I understand that a paper wargame company has a list of 25,000 active paper wargames. I know people play both paper and computer, but I wonder if computer wargames companies have a similar list.

I understand that computer wargames sell less than 2,000 copies now. Am I wrong about this? Does anyone have specific numbers on computer wargame sales or actual computer wargame people?

[panzers]

well, here's my 2 cents worth. As long as there are still people around and still live the old tabletop wargames, there wil and continue to be new and incresed complex, and thus bogging dpwn of computer wargames.
In a society where everyone is on the go, there is just no time here in the 21'st century to sit down with a few beers and fart all night long while everyone is busy taking their turns. I see no other way. If there were still a lot of people that were able to do this, then, yes, computer wargaming would wane. But I just don't ever see that happeneng again. Long live the tabletop wargames.
As far as alternative gaming if you are sick of wargaming, may I suggest trying out world of warcraft. As long as you don't get addicted to it, and I don't think anyone in here would for the simple reason, the type of audience we have here is highly educated and thus have lives whether it be work and/or families, there is great continuous play abilities and you never get bogged down. There are literally millions of different things you can do and there are almost limitless paths you can take. Just a thought for all you bored wargamers.
I like to balance. The genres are so completely different from one another, it allows me to enjoy both and never get bored.
But make no mistake, I'm a born and bred wargamer like all of you, and I, too get bored every once in a while with the same type of game. Hence the games like WoW.
If you can get past all the spoiled brats that you may come across in the game, it is quite the superior product.
There are now over 12 million subscibers to the game. That, right there, should tell you something unlike the 2000 games that Adam claims are sold for computer wargames which, btw, I find very hard to believe. I would believe it if it were more like 20,000. If it were only 2000, how would matrix games even stay in business? I would like to know where you get those facts, Adam.

[geozero]

I don't believe the sales figures thrown out here and there... sure there are few copies sold of certain games, but one only needs to look at them to know why.  Crappy graphics and GUI, mediocre game play, little or no AI, little or no replayability (typically one battle), etc.  Then there's the games that use the same old "engine" over and over and marketed as a new game.  It's only another battle, with the same old system.  If you get 2000 users, it's likely they'll buy the other "battles" thus the sales numbers go up exponentially for virtually little programming effort on the makers.  Games that offer more than one battle, or depth (like WitP or TOAW) will have many thousands of sales... though even TOAW's marketing was hokey... they released several versions about a few months apart, each had some degree of upgrades to the programming but these really should have been updates... still a lot of people (me included) were suckered into buying them...
 
So perhaps the "average" sales numbers are higher than what is being claimed.  Open ended games with great editors (like SP) may have more longevity.  The real problem IMO with PC and Paper Games is the inability to develop games that are fun, detailed (but not bogged down), with replayability. 
 
It's an age old issue.  But there's a reason why old AH games are still replayable.  There were great game developers at that company (as well as SPI and other similar games co's), that seem to be lacking these days.

[panzers]

AH was way ahead of their time for sure, but I think the combination of the advent of the computer gaming industry and the ccg's seemed to me the downfall of AH.
If you recall back in the 90's when magic came out( I hate even mentioning that) the tabletop wargames took a huge hit, and only recovered when the euro game came in which brings us back to AH. All that combined destroyed what I believe was the best gaming vompany of any type in history.
Such a shame. I have so many of then too gathering nothing but dust.

[ilovestrategy]

ORIGINAL: Jeffrey H.

ORIGINAL: geozero

There's another aspect of playing paper games... I just love the feel of standing around a huge map and seeing the battle unfold, much like a field commander would. There is (as has been said) something inherently pure and simple about holding a unit in your hand and moving it or rolling dice. If you're lucky enough to play face to face on a paper game it is just a great experience, both social and educational.

There's way too many game store that have gone out of business... here in SoCal I know of only one left. It's sad. I've been buying more papergames lately, and using vassal system to actually help develop and design some of my own game ideas, which I may release as paper games.

There's one left ? Where is it ?

There are a few here in San Diego, but they are hybrid shops that usually host Warhammer 40k and other types of games that kids play these days. I've always wanted to show up there and play out a game of AH "The Russian Campaign" jst to show them what else might be out there in the gaming landscape.

Aside from that ConSimWorld is the true home of FTF wargaming.

He's right. I live In San Diego too and they usually host Warhammer. Jeffery, I live in Mira Mesa by the way!

But you know, the ONLY reason that I know Matrix even exists is because I saw Gary Grigsby's World at War on a shelf in Best Buy one day.

[geozero]

ORIGINAL: panzers

AH was way ahead of their time for sure, but I think the combination of the advent of the computer gaming industry and the ccg's seemed to me the downfall of AH.
If you recall back in the 90's when magic came out( I hate even mentioning that) the tabletop wargames took a huge hit, and only recovered when the euro game came in which brings us back to AH. All that combined destroyed what I believe was the best gaming vompany of any type in history.
Such a shame. I have so many of then too gathering nothing but dust.

If a developer could get the rights to make them into PC games (no AI, just a PBEM game would suffice) that would be a HUGE step in revamping the wargame industry. Then put together great minds and develop new games along the same flavor as the AH games...

I mean, that what World in Flames is doing. They are taking a great game and finally porting over to the PC. Those games were balanced pretty well too. Look at how simple Afirka Korps was? And it still is a better game hands down than most of the PC games in the last 10 years or more.

[panzers]

ORIGINAL: ilovestrategy

ORIGINAL: Jeffrey H.

ORIGINAL: geozero

There's another aspect of playing paper games... I just love the feel of standing around a huge map and seeing the battle unfold, much like a field commander would. There is (as has been said) something inherently pure and simple about holding a unit in your hand and moving it or rolling dice. If you're lucky enough to play face to face on a paper game it is just a great experience, both social and educational.

There's way too many game store that have gone out of business... here in SoCal I know of only one left. It's sad. I've been buying more papergames lately, and using vassal system to actually help develop and design some of my own game ideas, which I may release as paper games.

There's one left ? Where is it ?

There are a few here in San Diego, but they are hybrid shops that usually host Warhammer 40k and other types of games that kids play these days. I've always wanted to show up there and play out a game of AH "The Russian Campaign" jst to show them what else might be out there in the gaming landscape.

Aside from that ConSimWorld is the true home of FTF wargaming.

He's right. I live In San Diego too and they usually host Warhammer. Jeffery, I live in Mira Mesa by the way!

But you know, the ONLY reason that I know Matrix even exists is because I saw Gary Grigsby's World at War on a shelf in Best Buy one day.

Same here

[Kuokkanen]

Digital (computer and otherwise) wargames have two major advantages over paper & dice ones: Internet & price. As I've said in other topic, $80 + shipping for SPWAW General's Edition is dirt cheap when compared to miniature wargames with plenty of stuff to buy (BattleTech, Warhammers etc.). Many computer wargames are available for free. Internet offers opponents throughout the Internet. These are somethings that traditional wargames can't compete with any time soon.

[geozero]

The problem with that analogy is that to play that $80 game requires an investment of about $1000, sometimes more for the PC and hardware.  Playing PBEM requires internet connection... another cost factor.   Within 5-10 years the OS will be upgraded and that game will not work anymore.  You need a copy of the game for each player.
 
These issues don't affect Paper Games.   One game can be played by any number of people that get together to play it.  You don't need expensive hardware.  The game will not stop working over time, or become obsolete.  You can take it with you anywhere, play at friends house, at a picnic, ANYWHERE.  You don't need additional costs to play the game. 
 
It's like saying no one will read books because information is available on the internet. 

[Jeffrey H.]

ORIGINAL: ilovestrategy

ORIGINAL: Jeffrey H.

ORIGINAL: geozero

There's another aspect of playing paper games... I just love the feel of standing around a huge map and seeing the battle unfold, much like a field commander would. There is (as has been said) something inherently pure and simple about holding a unit in your hand and moving it or rolling dice. If you're lucky enough to play face to face on a paper game it is just a great experience, both social and educational.

There's way too many game store that have gone out of business... here in SoCal I know of only one left. It's sad. I've been buying more papergames lately, and using vassal system to actually help develop and design some of my own game ideas, which I may release as paper games.

There's one left ? Where is it ?

There are a few here in San Diego, but they are hybrid shops that usually host Warhammer 40k and other types of games that kids play these days. I've always wanted to show up there and play out a game of AH "The Russian Campaign" jst to show them what else might be out there in the gaming landscape.

Aside from that ConSimWorld is the true home of FTF wargaming.

He's right. I live In San Diego too and they usually host Warhammer. Jeffery, I live in Mira Mesa by the way!

But you know, the ONLY reason that I know Matrix even exists is because I saw Gary Grigsby's World at War on a shelf in Best Buy one day.

I'm just up the road in Carmel Valley, Torrey Hills really but most people give me a blank stare when I tell them that.

I do a once a month trip to Camp Pendleton for some FTF gaming, usually wargames. Oftem times we play euro games because they are accessible and multi-player.

Are you interested in any perticular boardgames these days ?

[reg113]

ORIGINAL: geozero

Look at how simple Afirka Korps was? And it still is a better game hands down than most of the PC games in the last 10 years or more.

Amen [:)]

[freeboy]

I l;ove to see that poeple are using the older gaming systems, to me it seems a re assurance of gamings health. That being said I hardly think paper gaming even compares unit sales or dollar/euro sales to the computer industry.. unless you measure a very very narrow group of games...

[geozero]

Let's see about putting together a gaming all day event.  Play ASL or Russian Campaign or even Third Reich with a few players.  Any takers in SoCal?

[ravinhood]

ORIGINAL: geozero

The problem with that analogy is that to play that $80 game requires an investment of about $1000, sometimes more for the PC and hardware.  Playing PBEM requires internet connection... another cost factor.   Within 5-10 years the OS will be upgraded and that game will not work anymore.  You need a copy of the game for each player.

These issues don't affect Paper Games.   One game can be played by any number of people that get together to play it.  You don't need expensive hardware.  The game will not stop working over time, or become obsolete.  You can take it with you anywhere, play at friends house, at a picnic, ANYWHERE.  You don't need additional costs to play the game. 

It's like saying no one will read books because information is available on the internet. 

I'm glad someone finally pointed this out about computer games vs paper games. Espeically the fact you only need one copy and the game will never be obsolete. You multiply that $80 around x 6 people plus the $1000 hardware and accessories and that's a lot of money JUST to play ONE game.

[Prince of Eckmühl]

I had to read the author's post several times to fully digest what he was suggesting.

In response, all I can say is NO.

If anything, I think that computer gaming seriouly undermined boardgame sales.

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

[Adam Parker]

ORIGINAL: Custer

Hi Adam,
I made the statement based on memory. If I recall correctly, Dean Essig of The Gamers (a paper wargame company) had a house magazine called Operations. Amazingly, he gave specific sales numbers on his games, as well as, profit and loss. He also openly discussed his problems with the down turn in the early 90's and showed it openly with his sales numbers.

Don't forget that in the early 90's we were in recession.

As the world came out of it in the mid 90's, it was greeted with the Rolling Stones and Windows 95 "Start Me Up".

Such promise, now manifest in real tme clickfests, FP shooters, the EA sports games and MMPRPG's.

[Charles2222]

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

ORIGINAL: geozero

The problem with that analogy is that to play that $80 game requires an investment of about $1000, sometimes more for the PC and hardware.  Playing PBEM requires internet connection... another cost factor.   Within 5-10 years the OS will be upgraded and that game will not work anymore.  You need a copy of the game for each player.

These issues don't affect Paper Games.   One game can be played by any number of people that get together to play it.  You don't need expensive hardware.  The game will not stop working over time, or become obsolete.  You can take it with you anywhere, play at friends house, at a picnic, ANYWHERE.  You don't need additional costs to play the game. 

It's like saying no one will read books because information is available on the internet. 

I'm glad someone finally pointed this out about computer games vs paper games. Espeically the fact you only need one copy and the game will never be obsolete. You multiply that $80 around x 6 people plus the $1000 hardware and accessories and that's a lot of money JUST to play ONE game.

I think you're getting a little bit demagogueric here rh. Think about it. All something needs to fade in obscurity is for it to be bettered by something else. If you believed what you just said, then apparently you believe paper games cannot even be bettered by future paper games. Sounds like you also have no hope for the future of paper games when you admit that. Me? I would love to see Bomb Alley become obsolete (though -not- being able to play it unless I have an AppleII, and the game itself, weighs quite heavily against that notion in the first place), but nobody ever remade anything similar. Heck, even though I don't play it anymore, I'm more than happy for WIR2 to turn WIR into dust.