In AE what positives will there be for Japan?

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mdiehl
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RE: In AE what positives will there be for Japan?

Post by mdiehl »

Hindsight - this is a mountain the sze of Everest advantage


Actually, hindsight works far more to the advantage of the Japanese players in WitP than to the Allies. It is the basis for radically altered Japanese production and enhanced pilot training programs that most Axis players seem to implement from the outset. Moreover, it is the basis for the octopus strategy in which the Axis player extends control over the far south Pacific in the opening moves -- a strategy only made possible because of the lack of uncertainty about the Allies ability to resist in that area. In contrast, hindsight serves the Allies very little in WitP, because at the critical juncture of the game in 1941-mid 1943, the Allies have very little capability to make use of that hindsight.
No threat that their political masters will replace them.

There is no substantialy account made of intrigue on the Axis operational capability either, so the objection seems immaterial.
I think Japan must be made a flexible as possible , it was capable of more than it actually did in terms of ship building, pilot training, ASW etc.


Actually, no. WitP as is greatly overstates Japan's ability to optimize production and training. If any side has been hampered by ahistorical inflexibility, it is the Allies. It is more appropriate to reduce Japanese operational and production flexibility and enhance same for the Allies, rather than improve Japanese operational and production flexibility -- that is -- if historical realism is at all important.
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mdiehl
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RE: In AE what positives will there be for Japan?

Post by mdiehl »

UBERCAP - ubercap hurts Japan more than the allies fixing this for late war is a massive change


Actually, it is the early war that needs fixing. By 1944 the USN was in fact operating combat air patrols that one might rationally describe as ubercap and achieving in the real world success rates comparable to the ones seen in late war WitP AARs. The other consideration is that the real war Japanese never had the UBERSTRIKE capacity that we see in some late ware AARs. Had they done so, the UBERCAP, which James Thach called the "Big Blue Blanket" operational model, would have been employed.

The plain fact is that UBERCAP was part of the USN's operational toolkit by October 1942, but its implementation was delayed by the general lack of concurrently operational flattops in the PTO to put the idea into practice until early 1944.
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mdiehl
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RE: In AE what positives will there be for Japan?

Post by mdiehl »

In AE optional updrades and conversions of ships if pre defined in editor.

There should be a production hit on Japan for altering these.
Japanese LB Radar now arrives earlier and has several upgrades


Japanese LB radar had no effect during the war and should be discounted or eliminated.
UBERCAP is reduced favouring the defender which after 42 is the Japanese - with more leakers kamis should be able to operate at reasonable heights (HL Kamis act like bombers from 40,000 feet i.e. they cannot hit ****)

This could be a good change PROVIDED THAT Japanese strike coordination is substantially reduced. WitP late war battles often see numbers of a.c. deployed by Japan from bases that could never under any circumstances have operated the number of aircraft that we see in the game.
Midget Submarines

Were utterly ineffective throughout the war, and should primarily serve as a source for cheap Allied victory points.
Overstacking penalties that apply to both sides at the same level - attacker still needs to get 2:1 therefore it should favour defender (offset to some extent by de facto limit of 6 on forts in most atolls)

Stacking as such was primarily a matter of the logistical capabilities of the opponents. Realistically, an assaulting force with sufficient logistical backup should have something close to unlimited stacking when attacking an atoll, provided that there are enough landing craft, command ships, and support craft to sustain the assaulting force.
Allied units now withdraw out of theatre and start with inadequate TOE's (per history)

Depends on the unit and where it is located.
Cost of replacing initial numptie leaders higher thus more likely Percival will remain in Malaya.

If you really want to improve AE, eliminate the Allied political point system in its entirety. The extant one in WitP is gamey, ill rationalized, unilaterally imposed, and limits Allied strategic and operational flexibility in ways that are not imposed on the Axis side and that arbitrarily reduce the scope of the Allied player's hand to "copying history." Binding the Allies hands with a poorly conceived historical straightjacket while allowing the Axis player the maximum potential to deviate from historical constraints is inappropriate.
Supply usage for allied units up c 40% accross the board because of extra devices.

This is exceedingly foolish. WitP does not model realistically the superior firepower of allied units because of these "devices," so there is no rational basis for further dinging the Allied resource use (given that already Allied logistical capability is undermodeled from the get go).
No crossing of CW aircraft i.e. seperate pools for NZ/Aus/Canadian Kittyhawks, Aus/Brit Spits.

Why not? In the real war all manner of cross delivery actually occurred.
Most DEI units cannot be evacced and rebuilt or if they do they have a disband date so no evaccing 20 Dutch Base forces and using them to construct ahistoric AF's.

Again, why not? This seems arbitrary and unrealistic. The allies had the capability to do it. That capability was one of the reasons why the Japanese maintained a very aggressive operational tempo in Indonesia. If you reduce the Allies capability in this matter, all you'be done is declare that Japan gets to ignore historical potentials over which the real Japanese had real and appropriate concerns.
In general India is going to be a lot less able to launch the traditional early 43 northern Burmese offensive but hopefully is also a tougher nut to crack defensively - its a fine balance to try and hit.

This is a good idea.
As I sit here now I think it will be more difficult for the Japanese to conquer all of India/Chian or Australia/NZ (I think NZ is going to become a much more attractive exploitation attack for the Japanese in PBEM - but thats a gut feel)


This should be achieved by substantially increasing resource use and concomitant demands on Japanese logistics in the home islands.
And in India/NZ and Australia there are drop dead lines that will trigger more reinforcements but equally so are they in Japan so an allied early attack on Sakkalin has risks as well.

This is a good idea. The triggers should be the occurrence of any Japanese land unit anywhere in Sri Lanka, India, Australia, New Zealand, continental North America, or the Hawaiian Islands, and any Japanese attack of any kind on the Panama Canal.
A limited conquest of one of them may be possible (assuming two competent players)

This is exceptionally unrealistic. Given two competent players, the usual outcome of any kind of land operation by the Japanese in India, Sri Lanka, Australia, New Zealand, or the Hawaiian Islands should be an insurmountable logistical problem that radically curtails operations in all other theaters and that adversely affects Japanese home island production. The Japanese never had the capability of invading any of these places with respect to merchant shipping, and because of that all pre-war Japanese plans (including ops on Hawaii) were shelved at the outset of the war.
and a total conquest is still possible but the penalty for doing it will be more severe e.g. shipping diversions

The penalty should come with the trying it, not with the doing of it.
On the other hand the allied counter attacks from 43 onwards will also be harder to do I think we have slowed the game down a notch - but testing will need to confirm that.


This is inappropriate.
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witpqs
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RE: In AE what positives will there be for Japan?

Post by witpqs »

Joe, Andy,

Andy mentions 'minimizing slot dependencies'. I thought that slot dependencies were eliminated altogether. What, if any, slot dependencies remain?
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RE: In AE what positives will there be for Japan?

Post by Andy Mac »

Invasion scenarios and side specific.
 
e.g. there is a range of about 50 at the end of the allied range and 20 at the end of the Japanese  that are used for the special invasion code and that I am reserving in case I need to fudge something.
 
(About 40 for invasions and 10 I am reserving)
 
These are slots I am asking modders not to use (well except that they can change all the invasion specific slots to other units if they want)
 
So in fact their are about 10 slots at the end of the allied and Jap range that I make no promises to modders that I will not use for a hardcoded fix if a problem arises.
 
Sitting here today I have not used them but when this thing gets released something may come up (I cannot envisage what) That may require some hardcoding a special rule for something or other that I just cannot fix in the database - or some crative player breaks something or finds a hole that needs a slot specific fix
 
So those last few slots in each range are reserved.
 
You CAN use them but I give no guarantees that at some stage in the future I may grab them for some feature or other we add.
 
e.g. I may decide that Formosa or Okinawa deserves some Japanese emergancy reinforcements if invaded and not just the HI, or we may want to give Alaska some or maybe we need to them to add respawnable partisans - I don't know a number of ideas got squelched through lack of time and may never see the light of day - but on the offchance they do I am reserving the right up fornt to apply those changes and am keeping a small segment of the database for both japan and Allies reserved.
 
Now I am not doing anything weird like locking it off so modders can still use it its just a little caveat emptor on their use.
 
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joey
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RE: In AE what positives will there be for Japan?

Post by joey »

I am in favor of most of the changes listed above for AE except for one. I do not see a need for the 40% increase in Allied suppy usage. Realistically the US was able to supply its bases in both the Pacfic and Atlantic theaters. To this day, I do not understand how they managed this, but they did. I am not sure what the 40% increase in suppy does for realism or for the game in general.
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RE: In AE what positives will there be for Japan?

Post by Andy Mac »

Thats on average as a result of more devices not somehting hardcoded.
 
So a typical Division has about 1,400 Devices so thats 1 tonne per month per device if resting before replacements and disabled squad repair.
 
The same Div in stock was around 1,000 devices so its a c 40% increase. (More for motorised heavy TOE Divs especially Indian and Brit ones arriving from the ME before they lighten up)
 
Both of these requirements you could argue are low we seriously thought about increasing them further but it had to many knock on consequences for the basic engine.
 
But if you dont like it.
 
Use a stock TOE, set support squads back to 20 men and go for it.
 
I think its better because supply has more meaning and the CW especially will struggle over the Burmese trails - Rangoon is VERY important to the allies (NOTE to self revisit VP's for Rangoon)
 
Japanese get a benefit because their lighter TOE's use less supply.
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RE: In AE what positives will there be for Japan?

Post by mdiehl »

think its better because supply has more meaning and the CW especially will struggle over the Burmese trails - Rangoon is VERY important to the allies (NOTE to self revisit VP's for Rangoon)

Japanese get a benefit because their lighter TOE's use less supply.


If the result is that the Allies are struggling to maintain supply in Burma and the Japanese are not, you will have achieved the opposite of history. In Burma, the Japanese offensive simply stalled owing to lack of supplies and troop quality (readiness, morale, ammunition) deteriorated constantly from late 1943 onward. That was why they put so much effort into the Burma railway. It still wasn't enough to help them. In contrast, by the time of the 1944 Allied counteroffensive, logistics in Burma was (from the Allied pov) a solved issue -- in contrast with IJA troops, many of whom succombed to starvation and illness.

I agree with Joey, the logistics in WitP and UV are mercurial. Not just in terms of supply but also in terms of support. My general sense is that both games radically underestimate the availability of supply and support to the allies, and radically underestimate the supplies required by the Japanese.
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In AE what improvements for the Allies

Post by mdiehl »

I'm going to ask the reciprocal question:

In AE, what specific improvements will be added to enhance the Allies' position?
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RE: In AE what improvements for the Allies

Post by Andy Mac »

Hmmm I could list a few this is not comprehensive
 
TOE Upgrades tend to lead to heavier and better allied TOE's in late war
Sub patrol areas removes micro management for subs
Optional conversions for DD's
Off map movement to allow units to go via the Atlantic
Invasion reinforcements for India/NZ/West Coast and Australia
Convoyable devices
Squad upgrades e.g. 41 squad auto upgrades to 42 squads when returned to pool
Post 45 reinforcements from Europe
 
Both sides have benefits and reductions and their are things that I dont know whetrher they will favour one side or the other
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RE: In AE what improvements for the Allies

Post by witpqs »

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Convoyable devices

Eh? What's that mean? [&:]
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RE: In AE what improvements for the Allies

Post by treespider »

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Convoyable devices

Eh? What's that mean? [&:]


That means every so often a "convoy" appears in Aden or South Africa loaded with devices that disbands after a day or two and the devices go to the Allied players pools...
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RE: In AE what improvements for the Allies

Post by Monter_Trismegistos »

Could you explain more those auto upgrade of infantry squads?

The way I understand it now is:

Let's say division has 300 squads '41. In pool, number of '42 squads just exceeded 300. So first division now upgrades it's squads to '42 model. Those '41 return to pool and are converted to '42 squads. So again number of '42s exceeded 300 and on the same turn second division upgrades. And so on. So technically speaking all units can upgrade it's squads on the same turn - which is wrong i think...
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RE: In AE what improvements for the Allies

Post by Monter_Trismegistos »

Number of devices which arrive each month by convoy are set on some fixed rate, or can be set separately for each date?
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RE: In AE what improvements for the Allies

Post by treespider »

ORIGINAL: Monter_Trismegistos

Number of devices which arrive each month by convoy are set on some fixed rate, or can be set separately for each date?

IIRC they are all seperate...so Convoy XYZ arrives on march the 1 with 50 grant tanks and Convoy ABX arrives march 7 with 20 Matildas and 30 bren Gun carriers....and Convoy TWR arrives March 9 with Howitzers etc. etc....Only they'll have more and varied devices...
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RE: In AE what improvements for the Allies

Post by treespider »

ORIGINAL: Monter_Trismegistos

Could you explain more those auto upgrade of infantry squads?

The way I understand it now is:

Let's say division has 300 squads '41. In pool, number of '42 squads just exceeded 300. So first division now upgrades it's squads to '42 model. Those '41 return to pool and are converted to '42 squads. So again number of '42s exceeded 300 and on the same turn second division upgrades. And so on. So technically speaking all units can upgrade it's squads on the same turn - which is wrong i think...


All depends on how it is coded...technically speaking.[;)]
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RE: In AE what improvements for the Allies

Post by BigJ62 »

ORIGINAL: Monter_Trismegistos

Could you explain more those auto upgrade of infantry squads?

The way I understand it now is:

Let's say division has 300 squads '41. In pool, number of '42 squads just exceeded 300. So first division now upgrades it's squads to '42 model. Those '41 return to pool and are converted to '42 squads.

Not until the end of turn.

So again number of '42s exceeded 300 and on the same turn second division upgrades. And so on. So technically speaking all units can upgrade it's squads on the same turn - which is wrong i think...
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RE: In AE what improvements for the Allies

Post by Andy Mac »

It was this or have huge replacement rates for every allied squad type to allow for the required upgrades to happen in stock most US Units at the end of the war still have the 1st gen squads because they take so long to convert.
 
What it means is that the trained manpower of an USMC 41 Squad gets a few new toys and becomes a USMC 43 Squad and it means we can have more realistic (i.e. lower) squad replacement rates.
 
The trained manpower does not change its the small arms and squad level weapons they get that change
 
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RE: In AE what improvements for the Allies

Post by Andy Mac »

p.s. remember we also have squad production end dates so when a 42 squad becomes available the 41 stops producing
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RE: In AE what improvements for the Allies

Post by joey »

I wonder how all of these modifications affect overall game play? I hope some sort of balance is maintained.
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