Newbie Q - Tutorial 4

[Shemar]

ORIGINAL: b whittle

Either way the tutorial text does not match the game behaviour and leaves me confused and frustrated.

I have come within a whisker today of just packing it all in.  My life is too short to spend hours with trial and error to work out how this game is supposed to work.

My personal and completely unofficial advise is to forget about the AI and manage things yourself. I play with weapons tight and all the AI assists off and I have a lot less issues. This is not limited to H3 but to pretty much every computer game where you have the option to not let the AI do things for you. It will save you a lot of frustration.

[Bucks]

ORIGINAL: b whittle

Daren
        Thanks for the prompt reply.  Tried that as suggested but it makes no difference for me.  Not sure how the ~ key works as the prefs were already set wpns free and using the ~ seems to make no difference to them.  Does ~ change the global prefs or just for the selected aircraft and how do you know for a specific ac if it is free or tight?

I did get the right behaviour (as advertised by the tutorial) if I use the attack button, F1.  Hornet approaches a few miles and fires Harpoon from long distance.  I note in the unit status box the task is 'intercept target' for the attack button, but 'prosecute target' when the air ops button is used.  Intercept seems to generate an attack, while prosecute doesn't.  Seems wrong way round.

Either way the tutorial text does not match the game behaviour and leaves me confused and frustrated.

I have come within a whisker today of just packing it all in.  My life is too short to spend hours with trial and error to work out how this game is supposed to work.

BW,

My advice was from the same Tutorial using the HUD3.

I started the scen, selected "Good Guys" and made sure the difficulty was set to "AVERAGE" before I started playing. Once I did this and the Hornet was in Harpoon range, I hit the "~" key - weapons free and the Harpoons flew on their way to the Alligator. I'm using you BW, to test this out as you first reported back on using the HUD3 versions and if we can nail down the issue maybe all the new users can have all this stress removed from their Harpoon3 ANW introduction.

I did exactly the same using the Tomcat, launch the F-14, use F6 to start the intercept and once in range with the appropriate weapons (AIM-54 Phoenix) in this case; I hit "~" and within seconds the Phoenix are on their way to the Badger. Now I understand the global setting is already at weapons free. Why should you need to "wake up" the pilots? Not sure but either hit "~" or use F1 as suggested by 'Shemar' and manually run the engagement. Either way you'll get the results you're looking for.

Use the Tutorial instructions as a guide and I'll attempt to edit the Tutorial instructions/description to more accurately reflect both what new players are seeing and should be trying to achieve in terms of "learning the ropes" when it comes to becoming proficient in using the Harpoon3 ANW interface.

Cheers

Darren

[barniewhittle]

Hi Darren - thanks again for your help.  I have been using the ANW standard db since my first post, on the assumption that was the official tutorial, but happy to try out the HUD version as suggested. 
 
I can 'muddle through' the tutorial - as I did before with the original H2 and H3, but I was expecting the ANW version to be sharper in this respect.  Seems to be part of the Harpoon culture to have to expect mysteries and unexplained behaviour.  My view is that much of this could be improved by amendments to the manual.  Am happy to play my part if there is any enthusiasm to make real changes.

[Laramie]

My concern posted on a similar thread, was when using both the ANW standard db (as b whittle did - assumed it was the standard and best for at least the basic functions of ANW) and the Players DB as a check, whether or not the friendly AI fires with "weapons free." If it doesn't do this basic function in ANW, wouldn't that be a problem? Or is ANW really a sim as Shemar says where not some - depending on one's preference, but all functions should be handled manually by the player? Or are some functions ok for AI and some must be handled by the player? Rather than the forums as a piecemeal place to seek these answers, sounds as if Darren's plan to alter the Tutorial and other instructions in the official documentation would be the way to go.
 
Should we assume that for some reason, the enemy/hostile AI CAN function, weapons free, on its own, even if friendly side cannot? What about hostile side's other AI functions? A good manual for people purchasing the sim and learning it, would mirror what the sim does. But if the tutorials would function differently than the main program in terms of AI, that would presumably be counterproductive and confusing. I may have misunderstood the intent in the posts above, and I realize this is a discussion about a special DB. Still, as a relatively new H3 player, I would hope that at least any such tutorial DB would not create a sim in which primary game functions like AI are different than the official and most supported DB(s).  

[barniewhittle]

Darren - I've had a go with the HUD db tut 6 using the ~ key as you suggested and found no change in behaviour - the Hornet flies on dumb to the ship and gets shot down.  Tried a few variations - using ~ before and after ordering aircraft using air ops button etc, but made no difference.
 
For myself I have learnt to use the attack button if I want to attack something with an ac.  Not sure of the purpose of the air ops button in this context - just seems to plot a course to the 'target'.  Can anyone explain the difference between 'intercept target' and 'prosecute target', especially when the former attacks target, but latter doesn't.
 
I don't really mind how the game mechanics work, just lobbying for the tutorial / manual to explain them more accurately / fully.
 
Incidentally, bought HCE a few weeks ago and feel that is an excellent example of good tutorial - went through it with no problems, everything worked exactly as it said on the tin.  Also liked extensive use of screen shots that always reflected what happened in the game.  Really suggest this as a bench mark to emulate.
 
Appreciate your offer to update tutorial text.  Would it not be helpful to have a sticky or some such where the community can post suggestions for improvements to the manual - ie areas readers need more detail or don't understand current text?
 
Regards BW

[Bucks]

BW,

Sorry I've been "elsewhere" for a couple of days, just trying to catch up now.

I had a discussion with Russell and Darrel a couple of days ago and we've found the issue with using F6 as instructed in the Tutorial instructions, to intercept the various targets.

Looks like you've helped to track down your first bug mate. It seems when F6 was used to order an intercept, to quote Darrel.

The air intercept dialog changes some mission settings and was not setting the weapon free flag. This would make F6 ordered air intercept missions not fire.

So in effect we actually had an issue with the way the engine handles the use of F6 not just in Tutorial IV, but also when F6 was used in any scen with any DB. It's been fixed and will make it into the 3.9.1 patch. Thanks again for your input BW. [:)]

Cheers

Darren

[barniewhittle]

Hey Bucks, thanks for the update - a mystery solved.  A good start to my day.  Glad to have helped. 
 
Barnes  [:)]

[barniewhittle]

Daren - has this been fixed or am I missing a trick? Just tried the tutorial with 3.9.2 and still get the same issues with F6 - Hornet circles target until shot down... With the Tomcat it also circles the target when F6 is used and doesn't attack. Also noticed that it is impossible to order the Tomcat to stop circling - the course button doesn't work, so Tomcat is locked into circling the target till (presumably) it runs out of fuel... hadn't noticed this behaviour with the tutorial previously...

[Shemar]

As far as I know all 'F6' intercepts require the user to hit the ~ (Weapons Free) key to order the assigned aircraft to use their weapons. Until it is fixed just make it a habit to hit ~ key right after you order any intercepts using the F6 key.

[barniewhittle]

ORIGINAL: Shemar

As far as I know all 'F6' intercepts require the user to hit the ~ (Weapons Free) key to order the assigned aircraft to use their weapons. Until it is fixed just make it a habit to hit ~ key right after you order any intercepts using the F6 key.

if so, I've no problem with that - it's just not what the tutorial teaches...

[Shemar]

The tutorial text has remained unchanged through many versions and iterations of the game. Things have progressed and on occasion the details of the tutorials refer to the way the game used to work many versions ago. They are still quite good for learning the basic concepts of the game, but on occasion the in-game reality will differ from what the tutorial says.
 
I have seen discussed that a new set of tutorials is being worked on (or at least is under consideration), but in the mean time, if something seems 'off' there will be many people in these forums that will help answer your questions.

[barniewhittle]

Shemar - you touch on my main point here - the tutorials do not always properly represent what happens in the game. I know manuals can be hard to keep up to date, but I feel the tutorials are a priority, otherwise the game becomes a puzzle you have to work out by trial and error and the tutorials become a 'barrier to entry' rather than the opposite.  I have limited spare time and now give most of it to other games which do 'what it says on the tin'...

[Shemar]

It is a matter of perspective. I got the game at the end of last year, so I am new to it too. I run through the tutorials and many times the text would not match what was happening onthe screen, but I just shrugged and moved on instead of letting it bother me. There are so many things about the game that you will not see in the tutorials anyway and the tutorials accomplish the task they have, which is to make the player intimate with the user interface and the game's concepts.

[barniewhittle]

I shrugged when I bought H2, but having also bought H3 and now ANW I really think its time it was fixed - not for my benefit, but for that of others who follow.  I know what F6 actually does, but I'm still confused re what it's supposed to do...

[Shemar]

That's because F6 does a number of different things. When you select an air unit, hit F6 and then double click on an enemy unit*, the air unit is ordered to 'intercept' the enemy unit. With the current implementation of F6 that means "plot a course to intercept" and not "attack". It acts as a movement order. However if after ordering the intercept you hit the weapons free key, then the air unit will automatically attack, instead of just moving towards the target unit.

The issue is possibly a bug, but I am not sure if the decision will be to leave the current functionality as is, or change it so that the intercept order will also imply weapons free/attack.
_________
* or select the target unit and hit F6 again

[hermanhum]

I'll agree with b_whittle in believing that the F6 button is currently defective because that "Intercept and Fire" is the way it worked in H2 and H3 versions.

If ANW wants to change that, all AGSI has to do is officially declare that the behaviour has changed and that's the end of the matter.  Until that time, I, too, feel that it is improper behaviour.

Personally, I think that the previous H2/H3 behaviour is more consistent with the rest of the AI programmed conduct in that once a unit is placed on any mission, it is, for all intents and purposes, under the control of the AI (which then decides when and where to fire without any further need to go weapons free).

[Shemar]

Welcome back Herman [:)]