OT-Ships in Gibraltar

[cantona2]

Yep, one attack made by the Luftflotte in Norway and no more made after that other than very small and ineffectual raids

[wild_Willie2]

ORIGINAL: cantona2

That would have been Force H then Willie. Operation Felix, the proposed action against Gib makes for interesting reading. The Governor at the time, Macfarlene said that had the Germans tried to attack the Rock they would have taken one day before he had fortified it and 3 after but at something like 10,000-15,000 casualties.

I must agree that an airborne assault against Gibraltar would haven been VERY costly and even if it succeeded the base would haven been virtually blockaded by the Britisch navy from the very start...

[String]

I've seen pics of flashes and searchlights in the night sky in an encyclopedia titled "Italian airforce attacking Gibraltar" So apparently a few night attacks were made.

[cantona2]

Yes they RA made several attacks during the war and i think only a few hits recorded. Most bombs hit the sea or the neighbouring Spanish town of La Linea. Some of those searchlight emplacements were actually inside the Rock tunnels. The MASS special service of the Italian Navy also carried out attacks, more successful than their aerail counterparts, with manned torpedoes.

[wild_Willie2]

Did't the MASS only "sink" two BB's in Alexandria?. As far as I know, they never made a succesfull attack against Gibraltar???? 

From WIKI"

"1943 October 2: A bigger Italian frogman-carrier, 33 feet long and carrying four frogmen, called Siluro San Bartolomeo, or SSB, was going to attack Gibraltar, but Italy surrendered and the attack was called off. "

[Historiker]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

ORIGINAL: Dixie

ORIGINAL: Historiker

There's no neutral country in front of scapa - [snip]

I was only talking about Gibraltar. A raid against Scapa Flow would have taken quite a beating, even during the Battle of Britain with most of the RAF down South there were enough fighters in Scotland to defend against such a raid.

In fact, when the Luftwaffe tried attacking up north during the BoB, they got their butts royally kicked. No escort fighters could reach that far (and I'm not counting the 110's, which were worthless as bomber escorts).

Did they attack Scapa? AFAIK no!

I was only talking about Gibraltar. A raid against Scapa Flow would have taken quite a beating, even during the Battle of Britain with most of the RAF down South there were enough fighters in Scotland to defend against such a raid.

There can never be enough - if there had been the will on the German side.

[cantona2]

They sank and damaged a number of merchant ships in the harbour during the course of the war. They had a decoy supply and base ship in the port of Algeciras in Spain on the other side of the Bay of Gibraltar.
 
http://www.comandosupremo.com/Decima.html

[Dixie]

ORIGINAL: Historiker

There can never be enough - if there had been the will on the German side.

I am not sure I understand your meaning here. [&:] The Luftwaffe lacked the ability to escort it's bombers to Scotland which would mean that the RAF and FAA squadrons would have a free run (so to speak) against the bombers.

[Historiker]

To intercept an air raid totally (no bombers coming through inflicting damage), there are a lot of things that have to happen:
- the raid needs to be detected in time
- the wether must be good enough (bombing may be inaccurate in storms, but the bombers may fly home to bases with calm wether)
- there have to be enough fighters
- the fighters must inflict enough damage to drive off all the bombers...

On the other hand - if there's the will to do so - one can transfer over a thousand bombers over night to norvegian bases, one may attack early in the morning, one may fly there at low level...

If Germany had the will to accept high losses - and the Luftwaffe had this will on other operations - it can definitly mount an attack with over 300 bombers - if not more...

We have an adage in Germany "Wo ein Wille, da ein Weg" (where's a will, there's a way) - if one really wants to attack the fleet with a high chance of success, it can be done when the price is accepted...

[DuckofTindalos]

Yeah, I'm certain the bomber pilots of Luftflotte 5 were thinking exactly that when RAF fighters tore them to pieces... Do your homework...[8|]

[Historiker]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Yeah, I'm certain the bomber pilots of Luftflotte 5 were thinking exactly that when RAF fighters tore them to pieces... Do your homework...[8|]

sorry, I left school years ago. But if you ask kindly, I may help you with yours! [:)]

[cantona2]

ORIGINAL: Historiker

To intercept an air raid totally (no bombers coming through inflicting damage), there are a lot of things that have to happen:
- the raid needs to be detected in time
- the wether must be good enough (bombing may be inaccurate in storms, but the bombers may fly home to bases with calm wether)
- there have to be enough fighters
- the fighters must inflict enough damage to drive off all the bombers...

On the other hand - if there's the will to do so - one can transfer over a thousand bombers over night to norvegian bases, one may attack early in the morning, one may fly there at low level...

If Germany had the will to accept high losses - and the Luftwaffe had this will on other operations - it can definitly mount an attack with over 300 bombers - if not more...

We have an adage in Germany "Wo ein Wille, da ein Weg" (where's a will, there's a way) - if one really wants to attack the fleet with a high chance of success, it can be done when the price is accepted...

and thats exactly what happened

[Dixie]

ORIGINAL:  Historiker

To intercept an air raid totally (no bombers coming through inflicting damage), there are a lot of things that have to happen:
- the raid needs to be detected in time
- the wether must be good enough (bombing may be inaccurate in storms, but the bombers may fly home to bases with calm wether)
- there have to be enough fighters
- the fighters must inflict enough damage to drive off all the bombers...

On the other hand - if there's the will to do so - one can transfer over a thousand bombers over night to norvegian bases, one may attack early in the morning, one may fly there at low level...

If Germany had the will to accept high losses - and the Luftwaffe had this will on other operations - it can definitly mount an attack with over 300 bombers - if not more...

We have an adage in Germany "Wo ein Wille, da ein Weg" (where's a will, there's a way) - if one really wants to attack the fleet with a high chance of success, it can be done when the price is accepted...

The RDF stations would have given enough warning to get most (or all) of the RAF fighters off the ground.  Plus there is the difficulty for the LW in maintaining radio silence on such a long flight.

Have you ever been to Scotland?  It's generally windy, rainy and unpleasant [:D] and the further north you go the worse it gets.  Long range navigation over the sea is not easy (the RAF found out the same thing) and with poor weather it only gets harder.  A few degrees out on the course could (and more than likely would) result in the bombers totally missing the base, either ending up scattered all over Scotland or missing SF and flying too far north.

Whilst the far north was not a primary concern for the RAF there were plenty of fighters up there, and the numbers increased during the war.  You don't need to drive of all of the bombers either, just enough to shake them up enough to want to go home...



I guess that the navigation problem along with the lack of bases and the fact that the LW was mostly tied up in Russia was the reason for the lack of effort expended against Gibraltar.

[cantona2]

Dixie
 
Add also comitted against Malta and the Brits in North Africa.

[Historiker]

The war against russia didn't start before mid 41, so there was plenty of time before...
How many - and more important which types of- fighters were in northern scotland in mid 1940? Do you have any data?

I know, there are a lot of problems, but as I said, if there's the will... - and obviously it wasn't there. In mid 1940, the Luftwaffe pilots XP was at it's hight, so maintaining radio silence is nothing impossible, even when fling low to avoid radar detection. Subs may be put into position to help navigate, there were several month of time to prepare norwegian airfields to mount that many planes - and still there were a lot of Me 110 which still could offer some protection, especially against Gladiators, Hurricanes and Fulmars...

There were several missions done with very high risk - and with losses that showed this risk to be reality, but still, it wasn't impossible...

[Historiker]

And yes, I've been in scotland twice. The first time for two weeks of which one was rainy and the other time for four weeks, of which the day I left was the only one without heavy rains...

[mlees]

So, is it your contention that the German's "lacked the will" to attack Scapa Flow?
 
They bombed London heavilly. What made Scapa different, Historiker?

[wild_Willie2]

London was within ME-109 fighter range, also bombing London had the function of getting the Brits to capitulate.
 
A major raid on Scapa flow would not have been a war winner, while the Germans thought they had a shot at ending the war by bombing Londen...
 
An attack at scappa flow could have been combined with a major navy operation (assault on Norway, break out of the Bismarck) to make it beneficiall in a "cost/benefit" analyses.
 
By Itself, an attack would have been to costly....

[Historiker]

ORIGINAL: wild_Willie2

London was within ME-109 fighter range, also bombing London had the function of getting the Brits to capitulate.

A major raid on Scapa flow would not have been a war winner, while the Germans thought they had a shot at ending the war by bombing Londen...

An attack at scappa flow could have been combined with a major navy operation (assault on Norway, break out of the Bismarck) to make it beneficiall in a "cost/benefit" analyses.

By Itself, an attack would have been to costly....

Yes.

Despite the point, that even London wasn't really in Me 109 range as it's time to fight over the city was way too short, the reasons are already mentioned.


- No (real) fighter cover
- Heavy losses
- even if a number of let's say 3BBs and 1CV would have been sunk - it would only change few for Germanys total war situation in 1940
- after a first try there would have been no more momentum of surprise, so everey try again would be even more costly. Such an operation can be only successful one time - just mention U47
- because of the points already mentioned, the chance for success wasn't the highest. The target has to be found, there have to be targets there, the wether has to be good enough, it would take time and money to build and expand the necessary airfields in norway...
- the planes were needed more urgent for other operations, so there was no will to waste them for such a vabanque action
- and many other reasons...

There are enough points why it wasn't done - and this points are good. But this doesn't mean it was impossible or without a chance, the chance was there and it wasn't that small. There was simply no will to pay the necessary price for an action that can't even win the war while bombing airfields, factories or London might win it...

[Dixie]

ORIGINAL: Historiker

The war against russia didn't start before mid 41, so there was plenty of time before...
How many - and more important which types of- fighters were in northern scotland in mid 1940? Do you have any data?

From the top of my head the RAF had Spitfires and Hurricanes as well as Blenheims and Defiants at various points. There were also some FAA squadrons mostly flying terrible aircraft (Rocs and Skuas ) although IIRC there were some Martlets up there as well.