Out of plane slots?

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: wdolson

I don't know of any limitations on the total number of aircraft in the game.  It doesn't make sense that there would be.  There is a limit on the number of fragments though.  If you split up a lot of the large air units into smaller pieces, that could cause you to run into a limit.  I haven't played stock for a long time, but I believe USAAF units are group size and you can split them down to squadron size. 

So if you have divded up a lot of air units, that could be a problem.

Bill

i've only been peripherally involved with this problem - but i don't think that was the cause.

[JustJoe]

We have kept our fragments to a minimum for both land and air units.  As the Japanese I have split only two air units creating 6 fragments.  So I don't think fragments are the issue here.  I'm pretty sure I read somewhere in the forums a few years ago about some sort of 30,000 cap.  I will have to go back and try to find it.

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: JustJoe

We have kept our fragments to a minimum for both land and air units.  As the Japanese I have split only two air units creating 6 fragments.  So I don't think fragments are the issue here.  I'm pretty sure I read somewhere in the forums a few years ago about some sort of 30,000 cap.  I will have to go back and try to find it.

Again - i was only peripherally involved, but i think this was closer to the core of the problem... not sure on the exact number of planes involved, however - 20K? 30K? 32K? it was something in this ballpark.

[JustJoe]

I found the old thread and gave it a bump in the main forum.

[rtrapasso]

JustJoe - can you give screenshots showing this "out of slots" message... after reading your clarification of the original message (i had missed it the first time somehow) this is sounding more and more like a new bug.

[JustJoe]

I will try, I think it just pops up for a second or so as in when you try to transfer planes to an area not allowed. 

[JustJoe]

Okay, got one. When I try to add a plane to this unit the little box shows up in the middle of the screen for about 2 seconds.

[rtrapasso]

D@mn - this is new!! (at least to me)[X(]

i've never seen or heard of this before...

Hmmm... let me talk to the boss about this one...

You might want to save a non-finalized turn to send me (i'll let you know after i learn what the programmers want to do)... i assume the Allies are getting similar messages?? [&:]

[wdolson]

It makes sense that there would be an upper limit to the number of pilots in the game.  The game gives all the pilots names and sets aside a slot for them.  There will come a point when that area runs out.  However, planes are not handled that way.  There shouldn't be an upper limit on how many planes you have.  (There is an upper limit on the number of groups, but that's set in the database editor, so you won't run into it when playing.)

What may be happening is that the game is checking to see if there is a pilot slot available when a new plane is added to a unit and if there is not room to add a pilot for the plane, the whole thing fails.

Bill

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: wdolson

It makes sense that there would be an upper limit to the number of pilots in the game. The game gives all the pilots names and sets aside a slot for them. There will come a point when that area runs out. However, planes are not handled that way. There shouldn't be an upper limit on how many planes you have. (There is an upper limit on the number of groups, but that's set in the database editor, so you won't run into it when playing.)

What may be happening is that the game is checking to see if there is a pilot slot available when a new plane is added to a unit and if there is not room to add a pilot for the plane, the whole thing fails.

Bill

Turns out (checking with the programmers) that there IS an upper limit of the number of aircraft.

i would have thought that the pilot limit would be hit first, but i am guessing the subroutines put in to clear out the dead or retired pilots might be working well enough to allow players to hit the aircraft slot limit... a new one on me and the other troubleshooters i've consulted.

Good news is that it is on the "to be fixed" list... but that isn't going to help right this instant... [:(]

i suspect this is problem mainly going to hit in regular WITP games where there are more aircraft in production than in many of the mods. Of course, if a mod actually INCREASES aircraft production, it will also be at risk.

Quite frankly, i am surprised it hasn't been reported previously... (AFAIK).

[Adnan Meshuggi]

Well,
 
this bug was named some years ago.
 
Does anybody know the number of planes that are allowed? Does it help to elliminate the russian planes (and make a new "modified" official scenario until the bug is fixed)

I think, we can live with no russian airforce if this is enough to avoid the bug...
 
another important question, has someone look for it in AE?

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: Adnan Meshuggi

Well,

this bug was named some years ago.

Does anybody know the number of planes that are allowed? Does it help to elliminate the russian planes (and make a new "modified" official scenario until the bug is fixed)

I think, we can live with no russian airforce if this is enough to avoid the bug...

another important question, has someone look for it in AE?

Yes - there is a DIFFERENT problem with this name, which is what threw me off originally, but that relates to something to do with making mods, not reaching total maximum aircraft numbers in the game (afaik). There is also a PILOT SLOT limitation, which is well known and similar to this current problem.

i am guessing from remarks made by the programmers that the number of plane slots is at least 30K, but i have no exact number.

If you want to go the "mod" route - any limitation of the number of aircraft should alleviate the problem.

From what i know about AE, the database has been vastly expanded, so i doubt it will be a problem unless someone makes a mod that vastly expands aircraft production. The same people working on the patch are working on AE so they are most certainly aware of the problem... the next patch should (hopefully) correct the problem - at least for new games... uncertain what the effect on games in progress will be, but there might be some sort of ad hoc fix put into place, depending on what the programmers can come up with.

Apparently the "aircraft slots" are used for aircraft on the board that must be kept track of, and do not affect the aircraft in the pool which continue to accumulate.

For current games where people are worried that they might run into the problem - they might consider not adding planes to the Russian units but leaving them "in the pool" if the Russians are inactive.

[Adnan Meshuggi]

Hi, thanks
 
First of all, i am really happy that in AE this can´t happen.

For me, all three bugs are in the same range and are connected. I was just shocked that not only mods but stockgames are hit by this bug(s)

I fear we will have no hope for the ongoing games, right?
At last, we can have a look for mods.
 
I will modify some planned mods (reduce russian pilots, planes, air groups, replacements...) cause the russian air war has bugs, too (if my memories about some AARs are true)
 
And i still think that an easy each Game-Plane is worth 2 historical plans-aproach could solve it.
As it is in the moment, the game has problems if the japanese player is better as historical.
 
Oh, one solution for the "out of planes"-problem is to down/upgrade the group. So you have 100% damaged planes. Still no chance to fill the group with pilots, but at last you can use your planes
 
Oh right... i´ll wait for AE

[rtrapasso]

i am hoping there will be a fix for ongoing games - discussing it with the programmers now.

Stock games give ahistorical aircraft replacement/ manufacture values for many aircraft on the IJ side (and at least some and maybe all aircraft for the Allies) - CHS (and i assume RHS) are more in line with historical limits, and their aircraft manufacture/replacement rates are much lower than stock AFAIK.

Some mods (maybe Empires Ablaze???) might have higher than historical and higher than Stock aircraft numbers, and i expect they would be more at risk of having this happen. i've never played them and haven't heard complaints from those players, but maybe it is a matter of time.

[rtrapasso]

Oh, one solution for the "out of planes"-problem is to down/upgrade the group. So you have 100% damaged planes. Still no chance to fill the group with pilots, but at last you can use your planes

i don't think this will work - as long as the planes are on "the board", damaged or not - they take up a slot, i suspect. If you have them in the "pool" - they are not on the board and don't take up slots (i.e. - the game doesn't have to keep track of if they are damaged, what type they are, etc.)

i am hoping for a temporary fix to allow some aircraft to be returned to pools... i think this will work, but it obviously isn't an optimal fix.

Some "fancy" programming maneuvers are being contemplated for a more definitive fix for ongoing games, but they are very complex.

i suspect the problem might hit players who haven't been having grinding ongoing attrition battles which might tend to remove large numbers of aircraft from the "board"... but this is just a guess.

[Adnan Meshuggi]

Hi,
 
no - you can work around the "no plane slots avaiable" with upgrades.
Example:
1th Bombergroup, 64 Plane-size has 39 planes. No more plane-replacement.
They are B25C, you upgrade to B25J and voila, you have 64 damaged B25J.

Only problem, if you have less pilots, you still have only 39 Pilots. But at last you have full strength of planes.

So this bug seems to ignore the number of possible planes (30k), cause even if you can´t revice more replacement, with upgrades you get the whole unit-strength.
 
Just no more pilots... for me this seems to be connected and the trigger is the pilot-limitations...
 
Also, the bug is more stupid as a simple ahistoric expand of japanese possibilities.
It´s plain and simple... if no airunits are destroyed, you have more than 32000 planes on the map.
 
For AE i hope they rise the numbers to 2 Mio Planes/Pilots, just to be sure that this do not happen again. And i do not care about real pilot names and experiences, if this cause deep trouble. In any case, they should give us the numbers...
 
Ingame fix would be great - but i have lost all hope in this
 
greetings
 
Adnan M. 

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: Adnan Meshuggi

Hi,

no - you can work around the "no plane slots avaiable" with upgrades.
Example:
1th Bombergroup, 64 Plane-size has 39 planes. No more plane-replacement.
They are B25C, you upgrade to B25J and voila, you have 64 damaged B25J.

No - if there are no slots available, i don't believe it will let you upgrade... or if it did there would be only 39 planes.

If there are no slots, there is no place to put the new planes...

[Adnan Meshuggi]

thanks.
 
so we have another bug
 
because the bug i have seen is:
1.) You see a group (e.g 36er) with 27 pilots but only 16 planes (or 16/16)
2.) you try to fill in planes - but you see the message "out of plane slots"
3.) you up/downgrade the group - you get 36 planes
4.) you still can´t fill up the pilots to group size...
 
Is this a new bug?

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: Adnan Meshuggi

thanks.

so we have another bug

because the bug i have seen is:
1.) You see a group (e.g 36er) with 27 pilots but only 16 planes (or 16/16)
2.) you try to fill in planes - but you see the message "out of plane slots"
3.) you up/downgrade the group - you get 36 planes
4.) you still can´t fill up the pilots to group size...

Is this a new bug?

it looks like exactly the same bug...

it would make a difference if you have 16 planes total vs 16 + X damaged... In the former case, assuming you are totally out of slots, you could get 16 planes added... in the latter 16+X planes.

i am not sure how it could fill beyond the total number of allowed plane slots unless it is temporary (i.e. - as soon as you save the game, close the file and reload - the "extra" planes will be gone, i would guess. The game will "clean up" stuff on loading - which is how (sometimes) orders get changed, and other weird stuff sometimes happens.)

The game (i am guessing) could TEMPORARILY display aircraft as being present - i'd have to fool around with some saves to see what is happening exactly. Display errors are relatively common in the game - sometimes you can get rid of them by closing a file and reloading it - but sometimes the display error will persist (i.e. some "ghost unit" bugs can be caused by this (i'm told)).

The fact that you are out of slots might be affecting how the pilots can be assigned (i.e. - if there is no plane slot actually available, it might not be able to assign a pilot to the "slotless plane".

It is possible that you are out of both pilot slots AND plane slots.


EDIT: You could try the experiment: Downgrade a group with less than TOTAL number of maximum planes (ie. - "ready to go" AND "damaged").

Downgrade the group. Note the total number of aircraft, etc. in the group.

Save the game. Exit game and reboot (this clears the memory of any residual stuff in memory which will show up otherwise).

Reload the same game - check to see what the group looks like. i would guess that you had the same number of aircraft in it that were originally present.

This is based on the assumption that it IS total number of plane slots affecting everything (as told to me by the programmers). Of course, since it hasn't been examined by the programmers yet, this could be an incorrect assumption.

[rtrapasso]

For AE i hope they rise the numbers to 2 Mio Planes/Pilots, just to be sure that this do not happen again. And i do not care about real pilot names and experiences, if this cause deep trouble. In any case, they should give us the numbers...

Be careful what you wish for... increasing the number of slots by a factor of 100 could make the game files 100x larger... you might have a bit of trouble transmitting 100 Megabyte file (most ISP providers cut off at around 10 Meg, some at even less.) The files are already compressed, so it is unlikely that you can get around it once the file gets to be that large (they start out at around 1.4 meg, and grow as the game progresses and there are more units, etc.)