F4F Wildcat

[Mundy]

ORIGINAL: OG_Gleep

Hrm....for 6 Gun Points, the F4F-4 gives up points in every other area. Has anyone noticed the 3 performing better then the F4F-4?

That's probably correct.

The -4 introduced the folding wing to the Wildcat series with the added weight of the mechanism. Even with two extra guns, the total ammunition count was the same, so there were less rounds per gun than before.

[panda124c]

ORIGINAL: Mundy


Even with two extra guns, the total ammunition count was the same, so there were less rounds per gun than before.

Yes but there was an increase of 50% more rounds on target in the same amount of time.

[tocaff]

Common target for an Wilcat facing a Zero, wingroots.  The Zero flamed or fell apart under the onslaught of .50 cal hitting it.  Tactics and training will make up for a lot so if you know your opponents strengths and weaknesses along with your own kill ratios get drastically altered.  This assumes that the planes in question don't totally outclass the other.

The difference between the -3 and -4 Wildcats weren't big enough performance wise to keep using the 3s.  The folding wing allowed more planes in the same amount of space and 2 more guns was a big difference.

The Zero's armament stunk as the cannons were  poor weapons that had a low rate of fire and lacked accuracy and the mgs were to light hitting against armoured targets.

Once the US pilots learned their lessons the Zero was in deep stuff.

[Ike99]

Once the US pilots learned their lessons the Zero was in deep stuff.

What are you trying to say, Wildcats were superior fighters to Zeros?

Give

Me

A

Break


But if it makes you feel any better I agree with Miller that the Wildcat is too weak in the game. It really seems to have no chance against the Zero. I would think a great Wildcat Squadron going against an Average Zero Squadron would be about an even fight.

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: Ike99

Once the US pilots learned their lessons the Zero was in deep stuff.

What are you trying to say, Wildcats were superior fighters to Zeros?

Give

Me

A

Break


But if it makes you feel any better I agree with Miller that the Wildcat is too weak in the game. It really seems to have no chance against the Zero. I would think a great Wildcat Squadron going against an Average Zero Squadron would be about an even fight.

That would, of course, explain why the almost totally green marine Wildcat squadrons deployed to Guadalcanal immediately started shooting down Zeroes in numbers far, far exceeding their own losses! The zero had an edge over the P-39 and P-40...it had absolutely no edge over the F4F. The Zero's weaknesses far, far outweighed it's strengths when pitted against Wildcats.

[Ike99]

The Zero's weaknesses far, far outweighed it's strengths when pitted against Wildcats.

Go fly some online ¨IL2 Pacific Fighters¨ Hans,
Wildcat vs Zero, with the Zeros superior speed, climb rate, firepower and maneuverability and then come back and tell me all about how a Wildcat is a superior dogfighter to a Zero.

[tocaff]

Please tell me we're not headed into another of the fabled world is wrong & historical facts don't count arguments where Ike, of course is the only one right. 

For 6 months the Zero dominated the skies against obsolete aircraft, Buffaloes for 1, and tactics.  Hell, once the P-40s were upgunned to 6 .50 cal even they did better against the Zeros.  Yes it was a remarkable plane when it was intoduced, but it's fragile construction and lack of self sealing fuel tanks spelled it's doom.  Relying on superbly trained pilots without a pilot training program producing decently trained pilots and the failure to introduce better planes sooner spelled doom for the Japanese.

If somebody could find the breakdowns for kill vs loss ratios for the first 12 to 14 months of the Pacific War I feel that it will show what we already suspect. 

[Charbroiled]

Go fly some online ¨IL2 Pacific Fighters¨ Hans,
Wildcat vs Zero, with the Zeros superior speed, climb rate, firepower and maneuverability and then come back and tell me all about how a Wildcat is a superior dogfighter to a Zero.

You're kidding, right? Use a computer game to determine aircraft capabilities?[8|]

[Ike99]

You're kidding, right? Use a computer game to determine aircraft capabilities?

Not a game, a flight simulator with accurate flight models.

For 6 months the Zero dominated the skies against obsolete aircraft, Buffaloes for 1, and tactics. Hell, once the P-40s were upgunned to 6 .50 cal even they did better against the Zeros. Yes it was a remarkable plane when it was intoduced, but it's fragile construction and lack of self sealing fuel tanks spelled it's doom. Relying on superbly trained pilots without a pilot training program producing decently trained pilots and the failure to introduce better planes sooner spelled doom for the Japanese.

If somebody could find the breakdowns for kill vs loss ratios for the first 12 to 14 months of the Pacific War I feel that it will show what we already suspect.

It´s not so much the planes Todd as the tactics. The Zero can outrun, out climb, and out turn a Wildcat.

A Wildcat dogfighting in a traditional manner against a Zero is going to lose.

The biggest ¨event¨ in the air battles in the first 14 months was the introduction of the ¨Thatch Weave¨

First used at Midway I understand with success but when it became widespread among Allied fighter groups in the South Pacific I don´t know.

As far as the kill rato. The best allied flyers using the ¨Weave¨ Zero vs Wildcat was a little less than...

1 to 1

It had a huge impact.

Saburo Sakai-"For the first time Lt. Commander Tadashi Nakajima encountered what was to become a famous double-team maneuver on the part of the enemy. Two Wildcats jumped on the commander’s plane. He had no trouble in getting on the tail of an enemy fighter, but never had a chance to fire before the Grumman’s team-mate roared at him from the side. Nakajima was raging when he got back to Rabaul; he had been forced to dive and run for safety."

[HansBolter]

Perhaps you need to make an effort to get over your fixation and obsession with DOGFIGHTING.

I NEVER said the Wildcat was superior to the Zero in a DOGFIGHT.

In fact, what you pointedly ignored, was my statement that as soon as the Allied pilots learned to AVOID DOGFIGHTING the Zero and utilize the Strenghts of their planes against the Zero's WEAKNESSES they successfully TURNED the tables and decided the the campaign before the arrival of the second generation fighters.

The mysique of the superiority of teh Zero was forged against the Buffalo, the P-39 and the early P-40. In the event, it proved itself to have been INFERIOR to the Wildcat.


Try peddling your revisionist history to those gullible enough to buy it!

[Ike99]

Perhaps you need to make an effort to get over your fixation and obsession with DOGFIGHTING.

I NEVER said the Wildcat was superior to the Zero in a DOGFIGHT.

Wow Hans, you love to change history don´t you.

Now your changing the history of what you said and what I said said and it´s not even a 3 hours old! [:D]

This is what you said, and I quote you directly...

Which is why the Wildcats seriously defeated the Zeroes as soon as the Allied pilots learned to avoid dogfighting them and started utilizing diving slashing attacks instead.

Zeroes were flying torches looking for a place to flame out!

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: Ike99

Perhaps you need to make an effort to get over your fixation and obsession with DOGFIGHTING.

I NEVER said the Wildcat was superior to the Zero in a DOGFIGHT.

Wow Hans, you love to change history don´t you.

Now your changing the history of what you said and what I said said and it´s not even a 3 hours old! [:D]

This is what you said, and I quote you directly...

Which is why the Wildcats seriously defeated the Zeroes as soon as the Allied pilots learned to avoid dogfighting them and started utilizing diving slashing attacks instead.

Zeroes were flying torches looking for a place to flame out!

WHAT PART OF "AVOID DOGFIGHTING" DO YOU FAIL TO GRASP?

[SuluSea]

LMAO, another one of these[8|].... You got to love how Ike speaks about the zeros advantages while leaving out the Wildcats advantages ,diving ability, armor protection for the pilot, ruggedness, self sealing fuel tanks, armament, radio equipment [I read the japs didn't install radios in most zeros to keep the weight down,any truth] and such. Both planes had strenghts and weaknesses that were exploited by either side.   Although quality US Airmen beat quality Jap Airmen one on one, I'd give a edge to the zero in a one on one engagement but most all engagements weren't one on one. I  believe the wildcat was a better suited plane for fighting a war.

In UV there is no question the Kido Butai is more lethal than history has taught us..

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

LMAO, another one of these[8|].... You got to love how Ike speaks about the zeros advantages while leaving out the Wildcats advantages ,diving ability, armor protection for the pilot, ruggedness, self sealing fuel tanks, armament, radio equipment [I read the japs didn't install radios in most zeros to keep the weight down,any truth] and such. Both planes had strenghts and weaknesses that were exploited by both sides.   Although quality US Airmen beat quality Jap Airmen one on one, I'd give a edge to the zero in a one on one engagement but most all engagements weren't one on one. I  believe the wildcat was a better suited plane for fighting a war.

From my reading of "funny history books" the radios they put in them were so worthless that many of the pilots had them removed to save the weight.

[Charbroiled]

ORIGINAL: Ike99

You're kidding, right? Use a computer game to determine aircraft capabilities?

Not a game, a flight simulator with accurate flight models.

unless your copy came with a g-suit to simulate g-forces , "virtual reality" glasses, a real life instrument panel, and your computer emits nauseous fumes...etc, it is a game.

It might try to produce "accurate flight models", but it is not-even-close to flying the real thing.

The term "a flight simulator with accurate flight models" for this game was coined by the marketing department.

[HansBolter]

Since I just happen to have a copy of Bergerud's Fire in the Sky right here at my desk (i'm just finishing up my first reading), let's try quoting Ike's favorite Japanese Ace.

In the words of Saburo Sakai (pages 254 & 255 of Fire in the Sky):

"I realized that the Grumman's fighting performance far exceeded that of any American, Dutch, or Chinese fighter planes, but I had full confidence in my ability. For some strange reason, even after I had poured fibe or six hundred rounds of ammunition directly into the Grumman, the aeroplane did not fall, but kept on flying. I though this very odd-it had never happened before-and closed teh distance between the two aeroplanes until I could almost reach out and touch the Grumman. To my surprise, his rudder and tail were ripped to shreds, looking like an old torn piece of "rag"........[Ashort while later] I saw them about 1,500 feet below me-a single Wildcat pursued by three Zeros, firing in short bursts at the frantic Japanese planes. All four planes were in a wild dogfight, flying tight left spirals. The Zeros should have been able to take the lone Grumman without any trouble, but every time a Zero caught the Wildcat before it's guns, the enemy plane flipped away wildly and came out again on the tail of the Zero.I have never seen such flying before."

Sakai came to teh aid of his comrades and the story continues:

"When I was only 50 yards away, the Wildcat broke out of his loop and astonished me by flying straight and level. At this distance I would not need the cannon: I pumped 200 rounds into the Grumman's cockpit, watching the bullets chewing the thin metal skin and shattering the glass. I could not believe what I saw: the Wildcat continued flying almost as if nothing had happened. A Zero which had taken that many bullets would have been a ball of fire by now"


Ike, demonstrating his Japanese influenced education continues to draw the same erroneous conclusions that the Japanese drew from their experinces in China when they designed the Zero and the Oscar. Bergerud correctly points out that they designed their fighters for the last war and not the current war. Because they could defeat the abysmal Chinese airforce with light, nimble, fragile aircraft they made the mistake of assuming that they could succeed with similar aircraft against the industrialized nations. The Oscar was even more light and maneuverable that the Zero and was the only fighter plane fielded by any combatant that could duplicate the maneuvers of WWI airplanes, namely two Immelmans in a row folowed by a hammerhead stall. It was armed with 2 30 cliber machine guns.....the same as WWI combatants and in many ways was more akin to the dogfighters of WWI than to the warplanes of WWII.

Bergerud goes on to point outy that the increase in fighter speeds in the late 1930's made dogfighting a thing of the past. In fact, the Zero lost most of it's incredible maneuverablility at high speed. Simply put, the Japanese designed their fighters for the wrong war!

[Miller]

The overall kill ratio for the Wildcat to Zero was about even. Both planes had advantages and disadvantages as already discribed.

The same argument could rage on forever, other examples include Spitfire v Me109, P51 v Fw190 etc etc.......

[tocaff]

So maybe while this rages on it can remain civil, unlike some of the "debates" before?

[tocaff]

Ike,

First and foremost let's try and keep this "debate" civil.

I said that once the Allied pilots learned the Zero's strengths and weaknesses and adapted their tactics things changed for the Zero.  You can climb, twist and turn all you want but if the other guy dives on you, blasts you to hell and continues his dive (the Grumman dove faster) and left you lose in a big fireball (if you  were hit).  Nobody here is arguing that in an old fashioned twisting, turning, looping dogfight who would be the victor if both pilots were evenly matched.  The point is the Zero lost it's advantage once the Allies changed their tactics against it.  To me a 1 to 1 kill ratio is not a good thing, especially if the other guy outproduces you, and would look to mean that things in the skies equaled out. 

[OG_Gleep]

Good read if anyone is interested, VMF-112
http://www.mfr.usmc.mil/4thmaw/mag41/vmfa112/vmfa-112%20history.pdf