Soon to Come - Not RHS

[spence]

Besides USS Corvina and USS Bullhead perhaps you, Morse and Kimball can get together to supply a list of US subs sunk by IJN subs.

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: spence

Besides USS Corvina and USS Bullhead perhaps you, Morse and Kimball can get together to supply a list of US subs sunk by IJN subs.

Morse and Kimball derived their estimate from the list of USN subs that disappeared in suspicious circumstances.

[JWE]

quote]ORIGINAL: AlaskanWarrior
Okay I have questions.
First, you explained DC's, but not the ahead firing weapons like hedgehog. Do these weapons also work the same way?
[/quote]
Yes. The code looks at ASW combat as a sub-species of Ship_Ship combat. It looks for specific appropriate “Devices” such as device.type = ASW (or device type 20), nothing more. Then it looks at the CSV strings for the Ship, to determine the weapon suite, and then just plops the “Num” value into the “How many shots” variable, it iterates and proceeds.

A hedgehog, mousetrap, or whatever, is a device type 20, so a call to DT_ASW will return the weapon parameters without regard to whether they are a Mk-6 DC, a Hedgehog, or a cherry bomb. It’s all in the Editor values.

If so then would it make sense to make a hedgehog pattern equal to the number fired?

Woof!! That’s the question, isn’t it? Ok, this one deserves a big answer, so I’ll post it as an addendum to this; lots of implications for this puppy.

Depth charges have no facing, so we could mod load outs on ships that mimic standard patterns instead of using 'weapon mounts', and have appropriate reloads, usually expressed in x standard patterns?

This one also deserves a big answer in a separate reply, Woof! Your questions are good!

Does the ASW task force exhibit any significant effectiveness is asw than say surface combat or escort task force?

Oh yes. An ASW TF has a significantly better chance to detect a sub, and therefore ‘shoot first’. A SurfCom or Escort TF isn’t “looking”, so maybe the sub gets a torp off, but once the code gets into Ship_Ship, it’s the same algorithm. The difference is in the “detection” routines.

Do the various ship classes have any effect on asw effectiveness? Some ships were built with asw as primary purpose, such as DE's, Frigates, Corvettes, etc. (no that Frigates or Corvettes are actually modeled in the game).

No. The code just looks at what classes of ships are allowed into an ASW TF and then looks at their “weapons”. A motorboat, listed in Class DE, with 50 K-guns, will be gnarly.

What are the values in a submarine that affect asw, and how do they do this?

Woof! Well for detection, the code is random (big divisor when sub is in ‘shallow water). For combat, the code compares the accuracy (acc) of the attacking weapon against a number of factors; underwater speed (which is a functional calculation of cruise speed), the maneuverability metric, and the leader rating. The bigger the speed, maneuver, and leader, the better the ability to get a “sub avoids the pattern’ result.

More questions later.

Bring ‘em on, pal.

Ciao. John

[Monter_Trismegistos]

ORIGINAL: JWE
For combat, the code compares the accuracy (acc) of the attacking weapon against a number of factors; underwater speed (which is a functional calculation of cruise speed)

Does it mean that subs should have in field "cruise speed" put their max underwater speed instead?

[herwin]

Why the big divisor for shallow water?

Subs were much less detectable in shallow water and littoral areas.

[JWE]

ORIGINAL: Monter_Trismegistos
Does it mean that subs should have in field "cruise speed" put their max underwater speed instead?

I suppose, if you were tweaking towards the ultimate for combat, you could put underwater speed in as the ‘cruise’ speed of a sub. This will, of course, skew the range/movement calculations, but you spends your money & takes your chances.

The code is simple, in execution, but complex, in implications,; if you tweak something for a combat result, it will tweak something else.

Just my humble opinion, I might well use IRL underwater speed as the “cruise” speed for a sub, but looking at the code, I think this will offer better ‘chances to hit’ because of the the lower (spd) parameter in the calculation.

John

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: JWE

ORIGINAL: Monter_Trismegistos
Does it mean that subs should have in field "cruise speed" put their max underwater speed instead?

I suppose, if you were tweaking towards the ultimate for combat, you could put underwater speed in as the ‘cruise’ speed of a sub. This will, of course, skew the range/movement calculations, but you spends your money & takes your chances.

The code is simple, in execution, but complex, in implications,; if you tweak something for a combat result, it will tweak something else.

Just my humble opinion, I might well use IRL underwater speed as the “cruise” speed for a sub, but looking at the code, I think this will offer better ‘chances to hit’ because of the the lower (spd) parameter in the calculation.

John

Erp!

A sub moving faster than its cavitation speed (i.e., greater than 4 knots) is much easier to detect and kill. What a sub under attack tries to do is get under the thermocline and creep. For God's sake, this stuff is in the open literature! Don't these people know anything about submarine operations?

[JWE]

ORIGINAL: herwin
Just my humble opinion, I might well use IRL underwater speed as the “cruise” speed for a sub, but looking at the code, I think this will offer better ‘chances to hit’ because of the the lower (spd) parameter in the calculation.
Erp!

A sub moving faster than its cavitation speed (i.e., greater than 4 knots) is much easier to detect and kill. What a sub under attack tries to do is get under the thermocline and creep. For God's sake, this stuff is in the open literature! Don't these people know anything about submarine operations?

This thread is directed towards how the game code functions and is for modders and players. Discussion as to IRL aspects of this & that are off-topic and should be posted elsewhere. Thank you.

[Elladan]

Does speed setting (mission/cruise/full) have any effect on the asw combat/detection algorithm?
I assume the speed taken into the calculation is the actual value for this particular sub (modified by damage) not a scenario database value, right?

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: JWE

ORIGINAL: herwin
Just my humble opinion, I might well use IRL underwater speed as the “cruise” speed for a sub, but looking at the code, I think this will offer better ‘chances to hit’ because of the the lower (spd) parameter in the calculation.
Erp!

A sub moving faster than its cavitation speed (i.e., greater than 4 knots) is much easier to detect and kill. What a sub under attack tries to do is get under the thermocline and creep. For God's sake, this stuff is in the open literature! Don't these people know anything about submarine operations?

This thread is directed towards how the game code functions and is for modders and players. Discussion as to IRL aspects of this & that are off-topic and should be posted elsewhere. Thank you.

You're welcome.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

JWE did that.

Turns out he did not. Turns out my original question was germane. He really meant that the thread should be closed to me personally - and he has gone far off the deep end with this concept.

Further - it turns out that this thread has led to some enhanced undertanding on the part of the RHS team - and may result in a new ASW weapons system (I hope not - vastly too much data entry involved - but maybe).

A public forum on game design is meant to share ideas - it should always be open to all - and it should not be the basis of implied or formal complaints - in this case we have first the former and now the latter by JWE.

If it makes anybody feel any better - probably no person in Matrix Forum history has had more dedicated threads subjected to inappropriate comments - nor more personal attacks - than I have. Machts nichts zu mir, I live to serve - regardless of wether or not I am understood or appreciated. I don't get upset - even when attacked - and I never make a comment I don't offer sincerely and innocently in the hope it benefits all and sundry. If I ever post something that you feel is inappropriate - just consider it small and partial payback for all the times the reverse was done to me.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Monter_Trismegistos

ORIGINAL: JWE
For combat, the code compares the accuracy (acc) of the attacking weapon against a number of factors; underwater speed (which is a functional calculation of cruise speed)

Does it mean that subs should have in field "cruise speed" put their max underwater speed instead?

Another issue is the use of the snorkel - invented for WITP by Andrew - but only correlated with speed by me as far as I know. The cruising speed of a submarine using a snorkel is a lot less than its cruising speed on the surface. Further - this is technically underwater speed - but not so much in a tactical sense as an operational one. Since a submarine must move long distances - the use of a snorkel should slow it down over long distances. But if code interprets cruising speed in a tactical sense as underwater speed - we have another case where there is a possibility we are forced to make an unhappy compromise. Do we use the actual cruising speed on the surface, the cruising speed on snorkel, or the underwater speed on batteries? And further - if the latter - the sustained underwater speed (which isn't even 5 knots) or the maximum underwater speed (8 or 9 knots in most cases)???

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: herwin

Why the big divisor for shallow water?

Subs were much less detectable in shallow water and littoral areas.

A couple of issues arise: if the bottom is shallow enough a sub can sit on it - and it "disappears" from active sonar echos most of the time. In some places - e.g. Formosa Straits - currents over the bottom cause a lot of noise - rendering passive detection less likely to work - and sometimes reducing active detection range as well.

But not all is roses for the submarine: it may not be able to submerge, it may run into things in shallow water a lot more often than not - doubly so with a strong current (see Formosa Straits) - and it may itself not be able to find targets - particularly by listening.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: JWE

ORIGINAL: Monter_Trismegistos
Does it mean that subs should have in field "cruise speed" put their max underwater speed instead?

I suppose, if you were tweaking towards the ultimate for combat, you could put underwater speed in as the ‘cruise’ speed of a sub. This will, of course, skew the range/movement calculations, but you spends your money & takes your chances.

The code is simple, in execution, but complex, in implications,; if you tweak something for a combat result, it will tweak something else.

Just my humble opinion, I might well use IRL underwater speed as the “cruise” speed for a sub, but looking at the code, I think this will offer better ‘chances to hit’ because of the the lower (spd) parameter in the calculation.

John

This seems to be an incorrect interpretation for classic submarines (IJN guppys and some midgets excepted):

the speed a submarine can sustain underwater for hours is very low - only 2 - 4 knots - or if we exaggerate - 5 knots - one hex

the maximum underwater speed is almost never as great as 10 knots - so the code will convert whatever it is - 7, 8 or 9 knots - as one hex

One hex does not seem to be a high value - and surface cruising speed is usually two or three hexes - which seems to be higher than one. You said before that the higher value made the sub more likely to get "sub evades the pattern results" - if you were right - underwater speed will hurt rather than help survival chances.

Further - it seems that for transit - cruising speed pretty much has to be the actual transit speed - or time to theater will be messed up.

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

ORIGINAL: herwin

Why the big divisor for shallow water?

Subs were much less detectable in shallow water and littoral areas.

A couple of issues arise: if the bottom is shallow enough a sub can sit on it - and it "disappears" from active sonar echos most of the time. In some places - e.g. Formosa Straits - currents over the bottom cause a lot of noise - rendering passive detection less likely to work - and sometimes reducing active detection range as well.

But not all is roses for the submarine: it may not be able to submerge, it may run into things in shallow water a lot more often than not - doubly so with a strong current (see Formosa Straits) - and it may itself not be able to find targets - particularly by listening.

See Stefanick (1987) Strategic Antisubmarine Warfare and Naval Strategy, Lexington Books, for a discussion of the issues. In shallow water, you can only use the surface duct and there's a lot of acoustic clutter. My lab is studying this.

[JWE]

Gosh, Henry, a couple Paxils (or any of the paroxetines) would cure that quick. Shoot, after I take a couple Paxils, I'm positively calm about losing an entire ASW TF to a KD5 with a 4" deck gun. [:D][:D]

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: JWE

Gosh, Henry, a couple Paxils (or any of the paroxetines) would cure that quick. Shoot, after I take a couple Paxils, I'm positively calm about losing an entire ASW TF to a KD5 with a 4" deck gun. [:D][:D]

Which posting were you responding to? [&:]

I wouldn't wish Paxils on my worst enemy. [:-]

Oh, BTW, it's Harry (Welsh), not Henry (English). It's an old family name. [;)]

[Monter_Trismegistos]

ORIGINAL: el cid again
the speed a submarine can sustain underwater for hours is very low - only 2 - 4 knots .

Is submarine still able to manuver with such low speed? As I remember old Harpoon, subs always moved with speed at least 5 knots - speed arbitrary set to being lowest speed in which captain has still control over sub's position)

And no one is against you to contribute. BUT we are tired listening zilionth time how great RHS is. We already know that, and don't need to listen that again (no RHS advertizing rule).

[ny59giants]

When does the sys damage from a hit or enough near misses figure into the calculation of further ASW attacks??
Example - If the first ship in an ASW TF of 6 ships (common number as many use that as a House Rule) gets a direct hit on the sub, do the rest of those ships in that TF have a higher chance of hitting that sub??
 
Often a sub will undergo an ASW attack earlier in the 12 hour phase and then again near the end. Does the change in sys damage come into effect for the last attack??
 
If not, what level of sys damage has to be achieved to increase the liklihood of further damage to a sub??

[JWE]

ORIGINAL: herwin
Oh, BTW, it's Harry (Welsh), not Henry (English). It's an old family name. [;)]

OOps, sorry Harry.