Canal ? Not Guadal the other one..

[panda124c]

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

A torpedo wouldn't do jack. The lock gates are designed to withstand the pressure of about 500,000 tons of water and they were overbuilt for the job specifically with sabotage and other strategic considerations in mind. A torpedo detonating against one of them would be like shooting a bottle rocket at the wall of a brick outhouse. You'd need something more like a dambuster. Only the Allies ever came close to designing a weapon that could achieve that sort of destruction.

The only realistic model involving the Japanese player being given the opportunity to attempt to shut them down would always lead to the outcome "mission unsuccessful." Such an endeavor would be substantially less likely than a USN submarine penetrating the Sasebo yards, deploying Seals, and sabotaging most of the Japanese in-yard fleet in 1942.

Now that would depend on when they were hit, with all that water pressing against the gate (thanks for the correct name) hitting if from the outside could damage it. Hitting it from the inside would do some damage. Remember all you need to do is warp a gate, so it don't work quite correctly. So I still say it is a viable concern that was countered by the force used to protect the Canal.

[crsutton]

I owned Pacific war. Cost about 80 bucks and that was 20 years ago or so. It was truly a monster. I never even managed to punch the counters? That is when I knew that miliary boardgaming was coming to its end.

I wonder if anybody ever played a full game. Would have taken a heck of a long time. Oh wait, that is what I am doing now with WITP.....

ORIGINAL: Feinder

Actually, it was an option in Victory Game's "Pacific War".  You could option to "expend" one of the sub counters (with float planes, or maybe it was the kind that your could bounce Emily's off of) at game start.  On a roll of "00" of 100, you had successfully bombed the locks at Panama and damaged the locks.  All reinforcements in 1942 would be delayed by 3 months (and in 1943, they were considered repaired).

-F-

[crsutton]

Now that is a good idea. Too bad you were not on the General staff in 1940. Time it to happen the same day as the attack on Pearl Harbor. Blow one of those locks at either end and you close that canal for at least six months.

I smell a screenplay here...[:D]

[:D]

ORIGINAL: engineer

A coup that might work would be for Japanese merchant ships (loaded to the gunnels with thousands of tons of nitrates that had thoughtfully been prepped for explosives) to detonate while transiting the locks (a deliberate Port Chicago disaster) as an opening blow instead of or in addition to Pearl Harbor.  The practical problem is that this would have to precede a Pearl Harbor attack and get through inspections, etc.  Although conditions were pretty chilly between the US and Japan leading up to Pearl Harbor, I don't think Japanese merchant ships were forbidden entry or transit of the canal.   

Another, even less likely scenario would be for a surprise attack by a sucide commando team to blow up the lock machinery with high explosives.  

[Terminus]

Bywater had a better idea than destroying the locks by floatplane or submarine attack. He had the Japs load a freighter to the gunvales with explosives, and then sent it through the canal before war broke out, detonating in the middle and causing big landslides to block the waterway.

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: Feinder

The thing is, why would you make "the attempt" 'possible' when the only outcome of even a successful attempt would have been "no effect?"

I believe it goes in the category of "suspension of disbelief" (current Japanese production comes to mind [;)]).  In the case of VG's Pacific War, probably the game designer(s) put it in because they read an article about the mission to bomb the locks, thought it sounded cool, and presumed it was therefore potentially successful.  Or there are plenty of other cases where various "options" are included games, simply because they either increase playability (like Scen 19 of UV with more replacement pilots) or just some cool (and even wierd) if not impossible "what ifs".

I also remember there was an option in that same game (VGs Pacific War) to get the Tirpitz in 1943 or 1944.  I have no idea why (much less how it would even be feasible).  But besides thinking it was stupid thing to begin with, a single BB added to Japan's OB in 1943/4 wouldn't matter anyway.

In the Third Reich game, you could draw chits for various game option events.  As I recall, "FDR outfoxes the isolationists" and he USA joins the game in summer of 1941.  Others were Nationalist Socialist uprisings in Ireland, Iraq, and Turkey (separate events), activating them as German Minor Allys.  Another was Spain as active Minor Ally.  I dunno.  There were about 20 different possible events (each player could draw 2 chits, and I think there was an additional chit that was played in 1943, that was unknown to both players).  The point was more to "mix things up a bit", to compel a bit of difference from the "usual" flow of the game.  It didn't matter so much much that actual events were (likely) not even remotely possible.  But it allowed for additional replayablity, even after you played the same game with the same group of friends 30 times.

VGs game "Carriers" had the Nimitz. Later versions of TR like ATR incorporated a lot of those "chit" options into the diplomacy system. And while yer mentioning some of those chit options let's not forget the Egyptian Wafdists.....who invariably had their name bastardized by the players into the "Wadfists". [:D]

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: crsutton

I owned Pacific war. Cost about 80 bucks and that was 20 years ago or so. It was truly a monster. I never even managed to punch the counters? That is when I knew that miliary boardgaming was coming to its end.

I wonder if anybody ever played a full game. Would have taken a heck of a long time. Oh wait, that is what I am doing now with WITP.....

ORIGINAL: Feinder

Actually, it was an option in Victory Game's "Pacific War".  You could option to "expend" one of the sub counters (with float planes, or maybe it was the kind that your could bounce Emily's off of) at game start.  On a roll of "00" of 100, you had successfully bombed the locks at Panama and damaged the locks.  All reinforcements in 1942 would be delayed by 3 months (and in 1943, they were considered repaired).

-F-

Just because you were intimidated by mega games doesn't mean everyone else was. My copy of VG's Pacific War wa spunched and played. In fact I played almost every mega game ever published with the notable exceptions of SPIs Campaign for North Africa and Highway to the Reich. Military boardgaming is alive and doing fine. In fact in another hour I'm off to the weekly 5 man team playing of MM Publishing's Case Blue.

[Canoerebel]

Darn, I thought "other" canal meant the Erie.

[mdiehl]

Remember all you need to do is warp a gate, so it don't work quite correctly.

They're rebar-concrete, and 9 meters thick.

[Feinder]

These gates are of enormous size, ranging from 14.3 to 25 m (47 to 82 ft) high, depending on position, and are 2.1 m (7 ft) thick; the tallest gates are required at Miraflores, due to the large tidal range there. Each gate has two leaves, 19.8 m (65 ft) wide, which close to a V shape with the point upstream; this arrangement means that the force of water pushes the ends of the gates together firmly. The heaviest leaves weigh 662 tonnes (730 short tons); the hinges themselves each weigh 16.7 tonnes (36,752 lb).

 
All things considered, that's pretty damn big.
 
And yes, Knavey and I did play VG Pacific War thru.

[Knavey]

Don't remember what happened to that copy, but I have a "new" Pac War sitting on my bookshelf.  One day I will get to play it again!

[panda124c]

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

Remember all you need to do is warp a gate, so it don't work quite correctly.

They're rebar-concrete, and 9 meters thick.

And the Ruhr dams are a lot thicker.

All I'm saying is, nothing is invincible, and since the US considered the Panama Canal to be a very valuable resource there would be forces in place to protect it, particularly in war time.

I'd hate to be the guy who had to hand crank those puppies open or closed. [:D]

[crashTX]

There was a show about the large I type subs with hangars. In 1945 they got as far as just past the Hawaiian Island before being recalled to participate in suicide attacks at Okinawa.
 
Anyways the plan was to launch the 5 planes the sub carried... and then using torpedos... attack the locks on the Atlantic side. Why that side you ask? Apparently not only the locks would be destroyed... more importantly.... the water would drain out of the Gatun lakes... and thus even after repairing the locks... you had to refill the lakes before the canal could be used again. 
 
An attack like this I believe would disable the canal for a year.
 
 

[mikemike]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Bywater had a better idea than destroying the locks by floatplane or submarine attack. He had the Japs load a freighter to the gunvales with explosives, and then sent it through the canal before war broke out, detonating in the middle and causing big landslides to block the waterway.

There is a story by C.S.Forester (Hornblower) in much the same vein. IIRC (I don't have that collection of stories at hand) the malefactor was a German ship posing as Swedish, loaded with iron ore; the plan was to enter a lock, fire torpedos from concealed underwater tubes into the lock gates, and blow the bottom out of the ship, thus creating a giant heap of scrap in the lock chamber. The plan was foiled by an attentive British DEMS gunner who recognized German-style shoes on the feet of one of the supposed Swedes. The attack was timed to coincide with the PH attack.

I've seen a TV documentary about the canal a short time ago; they showed how a lock gate leaf was swapped by a large floating crane, and as far as I am concerned, the most vulnerable spot of a gate would be the upper pivot point (the lower pivot is just a fireplug-shaped lump of steel, maybe three feet in diameter, concreted into the floor of the lock chamber - looked pretty impervious to anything short of a nuclear device) - but I don't think this would be an easy matter. Causing a landslide in the Culebra Cut would be feasible, too, but this happens frequently, anyway, so the Canal Authority is equipped to clear that kind of obstruction as quickly as possible. Most damaging would be to blow up the Gatun Dam which would drain the Gatun Lake and b*gger up the water supply for several months after the dam was closed again, and that without taking into consideration the damage the resulting flood wave would do to the Canal infrastructure. But as far as I know, the Gatun Dam is essentially a large earth dike, and pretty resistant to blasting. To sum up, you could probably close the Canal for months if only you could get maybe 10 ktons of TNT in the right place. Piece of cake, obviously.

[Feinder]

Anyways the plan was to launch the 5 planes the sub carried... and then using torpedos... attack the locks on the Atlantic side. Why that side you ask? Apparently not only the locks would be destroyed... more importantly.... the water would drain out of the Gatun lakes... and thus even after repairing the locks... you had to refill the lakes before the canal could be used again. 

1.  One reason to attack the Atlantic side vs. the Pacific is that the locks are smaller on the Atlantic side (altho it might just be the practical difference between them being "dang that thing's big" and "dats one big mofo").
 
2.  It seems that blowing the locks to the Atlantic -and- blowing the locks to the center lake would be that much more effort.  Knocking out one lock is going to be tough with 5 planes (even if you can accomplish it), and now you've only got 2 planes on a lock and 3 on another - that's going to make it that much harder to disable.

[Hornblower]

I didn't know they were aiming for the atlantic side, and it makes sence to attack the "down-hill side" - thanks for the info

[Twotribes]

If the Japanese get the option does that mean the allied player gets all the assets assigned to Panama Canal Zone and areas?

[Feinder]

I know in CHS at start in Panama there is:
 
310 air support (over 3 bases)
3 RCT
Cbt Eng Rgt
4 AAA Rgt
Panama CD w/ 56 large guns
 
Within one month
2 RCT
 
Within two months
2 RCT
1 Arm Btn
2 AAA Rgt
5 Eng Rgt
 
Within three months
1 Arm Btn
 
So, can you capture Panma?  Sure.  I don't know what the historical OB is, but the CHS team seems to have done a good job of determining at least the starting OB of most of the units.  You'd need to go as early as possible, because for the first three months, it's steady build up.
 
I'm not sure if capturing Panama would break something tho.  Most of US reinforcments arrive in Panama, and if it's captured, it might wonker up their ability to arrive at all.
 
-F-

[hvymtl13]

Well I have prob 20 Seebea units in Frisco that are aching for something to fix. I would take a 7 to 1 trade for Combat units.
Either way they will fix the locks up np with that Seabee Can-Do attitude.

[Hornblower]

So its safe to assume that there is nothing built into AE to allow an attack – OF ANY KIND – on the locks ?

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: Hornblower

So its safe to assume that there is nothing built into AE to allow an attack – OF ANY KIND – on the locks ?

That is right. There is no provision in AE for this.

Andrew