Pissing against the wind/1Eyedjacks(A) vs Nemo121(J) ** Closed to Nemo121 **

[Alfred]

IEyedJacks,
 
Do not give any ground on any concessions.  Moses did not come down from the mountain with an 11th commandment stating: "Thou shalt only allow Japan to modify the historical record in its favour".  Japanese players who do not play scenario 15 are not entitled to any additional advantages - they already gain sufficient advantage by playing with 7th December Surprise ON and the fact that there is no cooperation between the Allies in moving assets between them even though Britain, Australia, New Zealand, the Netherlands were already allied and Admiral Hart had already sent naval assets to Borneo prior to 7 December 1941.
 
If it is good enough for Japan to deviate from the fossilized historical record, then it is good enough for the Allies.  Consider these few observations:
 
* if the IJA/IJN can co-operate their air operations (heck even have an army fighter in 1943 as the premier CV fighter) then why can't MacArthur have listened to the requests from Brereton regarding saving the B-17?  Which one of those two possibilities do you think is more likely based on the historical record?
 
* hands up anyone who can identify how many Allied subs (or for that matter German too) were sunk whilst in port during WWII?  Compare that with how many the WITP engine will allow.  Subs diving to the floor during daylight hours to avoid air attack, as was done historically at Manila by the subs, is simply not available in WITP.  Anyone care to recall when the Japanese actually did attack Manila port and what was damaged?  Try 10 December and extensive damage to buildings and torpedo stockpiles, NOT subs.
 
* anyone seriously think that the Dutch would not have rushed air and sea assets to cover the Sunda Strait/ Batavia if some powerful Japanese TF were located within 200 miles of the Dutch coastline?
 
Remember this.  It is Nemo121's own choice to make the Russians active in this mod.  Recall what he said regarding Trollelite's insistance on standing down the Soviets and Andy Mac.  There is only one reason for making the Soviets active in any mod - to allow Japan the freedom to move all mobile units out of Manchukuo (and China to a lesser degree) to support its schwerpunckt.  Where do you think Nemo121 found 20+ divisions to attack India in January 1942 against Jagdfluger plus garrison his new conquests?  There is simply no co-relation between trading off Japanese ability to use its Manchukou army elsewhere (remember Japan starts off with 12,000 PP and gets 125 PP weekly in this mod) with the Allies redeplying within their own national territorial boundaries inferior aircraft.
 
If he does not back down, your fall back position is to maintain the truce for 7 December 1941 and immediately start deploying Soviet air and sea assets to create international incidents.  Use subs to mine, use subs to patrol, use bombers on 100% naval search, use fighters on CAP and LRCAP, sail DD out of harbour.  Create the conditions for a Japanese attack against your assets, which of course were out only on training missions or in the case of the shortlegged shturmoviks defending national coastal waters (think of Donitz and King pre-10 December 1941), and then avail yourself of the resulting cassus bellus to strike hard at his depleted Manchukuo forces.  He might not even complain about the cassus bellus because he will lack the assets to decisively strike at the Soviet Union.
 
Regarding Hawaii, there is no doubt he will land there, capture it and after isolating Pearl, capture it too.  BUT, it will be done on the cheap (see my post of yesterday) - the overwhelming invasion will be T+ 21 and involve one of three regions, India (60% chance), continental America (30% chance) and Australia (10% chance).This is one reason (amongst several, some already raised) why you should not disperse your Pearl Harbor air assets.  More to follow in my next post.
 
Regarding China, your fears are unfounded.  He will move most of his air assets out of China.  He will not attack in force in China.  See my post of yesterday.
 
Alfred

[1EyedJacks]

Hi Alfred,

<laughter> I wish I'd read your post B4 responding to negotiations in the open AAR regarding this game.

I guess at this time we wait and see what response we get.

[ny59giants]

Well, once more into the breach. [;)]
&nbsp;
Looks like our games will be similar except for what can and cannot be done on turn 1. My game will not involve LCUs that haven't been prepped for a particular objective vs yours were whatever Nemo can get aboard a ship can more at warp speed to their objective. I think my game will move at a little faster pace than yours, so hopefully, you will be able to learn from some, but not all, of my mistakes. [:D]
&nbsp;
I've started to turn my turn 1, but there is still a question on if I can sortie any Russian subs as a modification of our HR. I'm awaiting Damian's reply (he lives in South Korea so there is about 12 hours difference).

[1EyedJacks]

ORIGINAL: Alfred


2.  Why it is better to send DB and TB in a co-ordinated strike but at different altitudes.

Nemo121, as the Allied player against Jagdfluger, demonstrated great success in getting leakers through Japanese CAP.  The benefit of flying DB and TB at widely divergent altitudes is not so much seen in reduced flak losses although there is an element of that too, but in fewer A2A kills by the CAP.  What you are trying to achieve is for one attacking unit to fly high/low and the other the inverse.  The CAP operates at one altitude and then finds it losses time climbing/diving to meet the other altitude.  Think of Midway and the out of position Zero CAP.

3.  Why there is benefit in maintaining a balanced CV air strike capability

Firstly, look closely at when Nemo121 recommends swapping out CV units.  When he does recommend it, he invariably replaces bombers with fighters and maximises his CAP.  The objective is to use his CV as bait to bleed his opponents aircraft and pilot pools whilst recovering most of his shot down pilots because they were flying Cap over their own TF.  He does it when his fighter pilots have a qualitative edge over the enemy.  He particularly will do it with the Yamato CV because of its superb AA.  Once he has bled his opponent, then he flys in his bombers to deliver the coup de grace.

Secondly, for the first 3-6 months, the Allies cannot follow a similar tactical strategm because (a) they cannot put up a similar number of fighters on CAP, (b) in this mod you do not have the same amount of AA (compare the AA of your potential escorts with what he has available), (c) it is most unlikely that your CV will operate within range of air transfers (remember again your planes are shorter legged than his).

Thirdly, you propose to use your CV as raiders.  You are not contemplating going head to head against his carriers - if an Allied carrier does meet Japanese carriers in December/January outside of the range of Allied LBA, your CV will be sunk.  Therefore considering who your CV raiding TF victims will be, your DB will be very effective.

Fourthly, I reiterate, you need to spread your aircraft losses amongst all your different aircraft types.  Have you looked closely at your CV TB replacement rates?  This mod is all about logistics, for both the Japanese and Allied player.  The real early war Jap CV killer is the land based Beaufort, not CV TB.  If you are lucky and he comes within range of the Vildbeeste, that aircraft too can inflict serious damage to Japanese CV.

Fifthly, remember each aircraft attacking a TF forces the consumption of extra fuel (via usage of endurance).  I refer you back to my comments under 2 above.

Hi Alfred,

Regarding item #2 - if I dump the DB, add another TB ACU (Air Combat Unit) and then attack with one low and one high won't that have the same effect? I've noticed in other games that If I have a TB/DB/LB ACU attacking from +10 I will get larger groups of ACU attacking the same target. And if I attack from a lower altitude, the ACU will disperse into smaller attack groups of 2-4 ACU.

Also, If I attack with TB from Max ceiling, what do you think would happen (I've never done that B4 but should test it out on GBL <laughter>)? It seems to me they would avoid most of the flak and then attack fewer targets with more ACU - right?

Something I haven't looked at is if I produce enough TB each month to make it feasible to remove the DB from my CVs...

[1EyedJacks]

Maskirovka:

The Soviet Military Encyclopaedia defines maskirovka thus: "The means of securing combat operations and the daily activities of forces; a complexity of measures, directed to mislead the enemy regarding the presence and disposition of forces, various military objectives, their condition, combat readiness and operations, and also the plans of the commander... maskirovka contributes to the achievement of surprise for the actions of forces, the preservation of combat readiness and the increased survivability of objectives." It permeates down to the lowest tactical level and includes all measures, active and passive, designed to deceive the enemy. Although the word is sometimes translated as 'camouflage', this belies its much broader meaning which includes: concealment (skrytie), imitation using decoys and dummies (imitasiia), manoeuvres intended to deceive (demonstratinvnye manevry) and disinformation (dezinformatsiia).


So I'm guessing Nemo121 plans to hit me in several places, watch how I respond, and then select a target of opprtunity (probably from a list of pre-defined targets) and attack with overwhelming forces?

I was actually thinking of something similiar - defending where I have to based on his initial attacks, Fortify where I can, and pool aside a force to go on the offensive with - most likely somewhere he might consider a "Back-water" but would let me hammer at his resources or industry.

[ny59giants]

Regarding item #2 - if I dump the DB, add another TB ACU (Air Combat Unit) and then attack with one low and one high won't that have the same effect? I've noticed in other games that If I have a TB/DB/LB ACU attacking from +10 I will get larger groups of ACU attacking the same target. And if I attack from a lower altitude, the ACU will disperse into smaller attack groups of 2-4 ACU.

Michael,
Any ac with an intial altitude of under 15k, attack in 4 plane groups. Anything above 15k means they come in 9 plane groups. You want them above 15k if you expect to go up against a CV TF.

[Alfred]

1EyedJacks,
&nbsp;
Short post to answer a couple of your questions, long post on strategic/tactical Allied responses will follow.
&nbsp;
Re: maskirovka.
&nbsp;
Of course the WITP engine limits what can be accomplished under maskirovka.&nbsp; Here it's main manifestation will be in Phase II as MG#1 (see post 18) when he will threaten to land away from your main defences, thus encouraging you to believe that you might be able to defeat the invasion by pouring in your air and sea reserves at that spot.&nbsp; This suits him perfectly because the objective of MG#1 is to destroy your local reserves and pull out of position your units which&nbsp;are in position to oppose MG#2.&nbsp; It is not critical for MG#1 to actually capture any base, although of course it would be desirable to do so.&nbsp; MG#2 will be scheduled to follow about about 2 weeks after MG#1.&nbsp; It will land in the same general area.&nbsp; To give possible examples:
&nbsp;
(a) assume he has MG#2 earmarked for Madras, then MG#1 will precede it by threatening to land in Ceylon,
(b) assume he has MG#2 earmarked for Bombay, then MG#1 will precede it by threatening to land in Ceylon,
(c) assume he has MG#2 earmarked for Chittagong, then MG#1 will precede it by threatening Cox's Bazaar,
(d) assume he has MG#2 earmarked for the USA West Coast, then MG#1 will precede it by threatening to land in British Columbia,
(e) assume he has MG#2 earmarked for Australian East Coast, then MG#1 will precede it by threatening to land in Tasmania.
&nbsp;
The key points for you to remember are regarding the maskirovka of Phase II are:
&nbsp;
*&nbsp; he will determine his MG#2's objective on 7 December 1941.&nbsp; Thus his opening offensive will give you&nbsp;some tentative clues as to his plans for Phase II.&nbsp; The MG#2 objective will only change if in December 1941 you accomplish some stunning defensive victories eg hold Malaya (particuarly festung Singapore), Luzon, Java and Hawaii/Alaska in strength and well supplied.&nbsp; In other words he will be loathe to have MG#2 with an objective which allows his SLOC to be strongly interdicted by Allied air power.&nbsp; Note however, if your Malaya, Luzon, Java, Hawaii/Alaska bastions are starving and therefore incapable of launching strong interdictions against his SLOC, then he may well consider it still worthwhile to not alter his MG#2 objective.
&nbsp;
*&nbsp; he does not have to wait for a target of opportunity.&nbsp; He has 12 mobile divisions available for operations in the SRA on 7 December 1941, and every 3-4 days thereafter he will pull an entire division out of China/Manchukuo/Home Islands, thus giving him a further 6-8 mobile divisions by 31 December 1941.
&nbsp;
Re: use of additional TB on CV.
&nbsp;
I see you are still intent on this course of action.&nbsp; Well I still think it is a mistake but there are far worse mistakes you could commit.&nbsp; I feel confident that when you do actually get around to looking at your TB monthly production, you will start to see the wisdom of my position.&nbsp; Again I reiterate, you must spread out your airframe losses as widely as possible.
&nbsp;
You are correct in stating that if you have 1 TB unit low and 1 TB high that will help in their surviveability against CAP and to a certain extent against AA but no matter what altitude TB are set, their final approach run is at 2,000 feet.&nbsp; That is one reason why one should always be wary of using TB instead of DB when attacking airfields, TF etc.&nbsp; Also check on your manoeuvre, durability, gun ratings - DB are usually superior to TB in these areas.
&nbsp;
Lastly, as previously stated and argued, you must not send your CV against his CV.&nbsp; If you must raid with them, then surely you aim to hit his merchantment not his KB.&nbsp; Your carrier DB will be very effective against merchantment and destroyers.&nbsp; With DB on your carriers, you can allocate them a naval search mission and thereby hit any subs found en route.&nbsp; It is a waste to have TB on search finding subs and hitting them instead of surface vessels with their torpedoes.
&nbsp;
Re: pooling aside a force to go on the offensive.
&nbsp;
Excellent.&nbsp; I will elaborate more fully in the forthcoming Allied strategy post (it's a bit like waiting for Godot, n'est pas) about the rapid reaction force, and its opportunities in December 1941 (yeah, verily so!) which I recommend.&nbsp; If you recall, in an earlier post I suggested sending in a surface TF ASAP to Alaska - well that is part of the rapid reaction force I have in mind and will shortly disclose.
&nbsp;
Are there any questions I have missed answering to date?
&nbsp;
Alfred
&nbsp;

[Alfred]

1EyedJacks,
&nbsp;
I will not have sufficient time to finish today my thoughts on appropriate Allied responses to the anticipated Japanese strategy outlined in my post of #18, but will make a start now.&nbsp; My Allied commentary follows in complementary point order, the Japanese commentary.
&nbsp;
(B)&nbsp; General Overview of Allied responses to anticipated Japanese strategy.
&nbsp;[left](B1)&nbsp; You should establish certain quarterly goals to constantly remind yourself of this question:[/left][left]&nbsp;[/left][left]&nbsp; "will this military operation aid or frustrate me in achieving my overall goals?"[/left]&nbsp;
Your quarterly goals should then be broken down into weekly progress targets and posted on the AAR.&nbsp; This will allow for assessing how well you are progressing.&nbsp; Remember VP have no relevance here.&nbsp; Some suggested quarterly goals are:
&nbsp;
(i)&nbsp; number/tonnage of Japanese AO/TK/AK/AP sunk
(ii)&nbsp;quantity of supply/fuel located at nominated Allied logistic hubs
(iii) number/tonnage of Allied AP/AK/TK allocated to each Allied Command for sea lift
(iv) estimated IJA/IJN pilot pool status
(v) USA/USN/USMC/Aust/Brit etc pilot pool status
(vi) Allied plane pools
(vii) ETA of new Japanese aircraft models
(viii) estimated Japanese Heavy Industry capacity
(ix)&nbsp; estimated Japanese Empire oil stockpiles
(x)&nbsp; Allied LCU/LBA allocated to each Allied Command
&nbsp;
In military terms, you will have to place Japan under an air and sea economic blockade from day 1, although you will be limited in the number of subs you can so employ because of their pressing initial need to transports cadres out to safety.&nbsp; Subs are not to be used to defend bases, or pick up stragglers.&nbsp; They are to be used for mining and patrolling the raw material transport convoys.&nbsp;&nbsp;When given a choice, bombers are to be employed against Japan's logistics.&nbsp; Fighters, when not colocated with bombers &nbsp;should be employed, as much as possible, on naval strike.&nbsp; In 1942, fighter sweeps are of no value&nbsp;prior to the arrival of the Spitfires, and&nbsp;of limited value subsequently.
&nbsp;
(B2)&nbsp; The Allies must display considerable patience and maintain both strategic and theatre level reserves in order to cope with the maskirovka operations.&nbsp; Do not commit reserves until the offensive axis has been ascertained.&nbsp; The only exceptions are where the Japanese operation is clearly a coup de main, or it&nbsp;is striking a critical Allied point, in which case a proportionate and immediate response, using your Rapid Reaction Force ("RRF") is essential (see below for more details on RRF).
&nbsp;
(B3)&nbsp; When his main axis offensive operation has been determined, you must launch co-ordinated counter attack offensives at multiple locations elsewhere.&nbsp; These counter attacks will have accomplished these objectives even if they merely prevent him from drawing off resources to support his schwerpunckt.&nbsp; There is only one way of properly combating an opponent who has the strategic initiative and interior lines - multiple co-ordinated attacks on his periphery.&nbsp; It is an indirect way of defending against the schwerpunckt.&nbsp; Make him, not you, lose time and the use of his assets as he constantly shuffles units from one front to another.
&nbsp;
(B4)&nbsp; See comments under (B1) above.&nbsp; Recon over captured bases which have access to local raw materials, both on site and via overland rail transport, to discover if any new factories have been established.&nbsp; Destroying Heaving Industry factories is not the most efficient economic war strategy.&nbsp; Far better is to destroy the oil centers which will impact upon the Formosan and Home Island factories.&nbsp; Also you will find that oil centres are easier to reach.
&nbsp;
(B5)&nbsp; See comments under (B1) and (B4) above.
&nbsp;
sorry folks, that's all for tonight, tune in tommorrow, same bat channel, same bat time, for the next installment.
&nbsp;
Alfred

[Alfred]

1EyedJacks,
&nbsp;
Ok, my last word on why you should not replace your CV carrier trained DB with carrier capable TB.&nbsp; I had hoped my hints would have sufficed but others obviously do not have access to this mod and therefore will come to erroneous conclusions/advice.&nbsp; The stats come from Empires Ablaze v1.2 (I don't have v1.3) but there should be no changes to the stats between the two versions.
&nbsp;
(1)&nbsp; To me it is gamey, but not everyone will so agree.&nbsp; It is your game so whether it is gamey is up to your decision solely.
&nbsp;
(2)&nbsp; On 7 December 1941, there is only 1 carrier capable TB unit available (RAF 4 AACU flying Swordfish I located at Singapore).&nbsp; The next arriving TB unit, which may or may not be carrier capable, arrives in 631 days.&nbsp; Thus to implement this swap plan, someone needs to explain (a) where the required TB units are to be found, and (b) how do you get RAF 4 AACU on board a USN CV?
&nbsp;
(3)&nbsp; None of your early war British carriers have any DB to be swapped.&nbsp; Heck, CVL Hermes doesn't even have any fighters on board and has no room to acquire any.
&nbsp;
(4)&nbsp; The reinforcing CVL Kittyhawk and CVL Hammondsport (2 and 36 days respectively) are fast aircraft transports but unable to keep with the fleet carriers, even if therre were any available TB.
&nbsp;
(5)&nbsp; Until 1 January 1942, the available carrier bomber models, and their comparison stats are:
&nbsp;
(a) monthly replacements/at start pool stockpile
&nbsp;
33/23 SBD Dauntless
0/53 TBD Devastator
0/8 Swordfish I
&nbsp;
(b) normal/extended range
&nbsp;
5/7 SBD Dauntless
3/5 TBD Devastator
2/3 Swordfish I
&nbsp;
(c) manoeuvre/durability
&nbsp;
16/14 SBD Dauntless
11/12 TBD Devastator
7/10 Swordfish I
&nbsp;
(d) armour rating/max speed
&nbsp;
1/217 SBD Dauntless
0/206 TBD Devastator
0/139 Swordfish U
&nbsp;
(e)&nbsp; max altitude
&nbsp;
23,125 SBD Dauntless
16,640 TBD Devastator
8,560 Swordfish I
&nbsp;
Well those figures show to me that the SBD Dauntless is a better plane - able to do more and more survivable.&nbsp; when the TBM-1 Avenger becomes available in January 1942 its stats place it perhaps slightly in front of the Dauntless (certainly the Avenger has a far higher replacement rate).&nbsp; Pity you don't have any free land carrier capable TB units able to upgrade to the Avenger.
&nbsp;
So putting aside the minor technical point, which others overlooked, that you do not have TB units to swap onto CV, keeping DB on your carriers is a better policy anyway because:
&nbsp;
(6)&nbsp; The Dauntless has a longer range than the Devastator/Swordfish.&nbsp; This is an important consideration for naval search missions.
&nbsp;
(7)&nbsp; It's better to use DB bombs than TB "torpedoes" on subs spotted by naval search.
&nbsp;
(8)&nbsp; DB have different final approach altitudes compared to TB.
&nbsp;
(9)&nbsp; You have to avoid early CV on CV enounters.&nbsp; Even if you add fighters to your carriers, your CV TF will have fewer fighters for CAP/escort than the enemy CV TF, plus your AA will be weaker.&nbsp; Therefore your CV will be flying air strikes against merchantment/destroyers/auxiliaries.&nbsp; Where is the disadvantage confronting your DB then?
&nbsp;
(10)&nbsp; This mod is all about logistics.&nbsp; You need to spread your airframe losses amongst your different aircraft models.
&nbsp;
(11)&nbsp; Just because others recommend it&nbsp;a&nbsp;particular&nbsp;tactical/strategic option for Japan does not mean it is similarly viable&nbsp;for the Allies.&nbsp; One needs to look at the capabilities which are different between Japan and the Allies and which in turn imposes different tactics/strategies on the two sides.
&nbsp;
If you still harbour any visions of early CV v CV battles in this mod, forget it.&nbsp; All the cards in the deck are stacked in favour of Japan (gentle reminder about the effect of having advanced weather off is made here but issue not pursued).&nbsp; In this mod, the only Allied fun is to survive 1942 in a strong enough condition (and that outcome is very doubtful) to use his new 1943 toys.&nbsp; Halsey racing across the Pacific guarantees a Midway in reverse.
&nbsp;
Alfred

[EUBanana]

ORIGINAL: Alfred
(1)  To me it is gamey, but not everyone will so agree.  It is your game so whether it is gamey is up to your decision solely.

I appreciate you said its not your decision but... how on earth did you arrive at it? You waxed lyrical about how Jap carriers packed with fighters would be used. If you can modify the loadout of a Jap carrier, you can modify the loadout of an Allied one as well.

(2)  On 7 December 1941, there is only 1 carrier capable TB unit available (RAF 4 AACU flying Swordfish I located at Singapore).  The next arriving TB unit, which may or may not be carrier capable, arrives in 631 days.  Thus to implement this swap plan, someone needs to explain (a) where the required TB units are to be found, and (b) how do you get RAF 4 AACU on board a USN CV?

Quite possibly from toasted carriers whose bomber squadrons make it to a friendly base.

(5)  Until 1 January 1942, the available carrier bomber models, and their comparison stats are:

(a) monthly replacements/at start pool stockpile

33/23 SBD Dauntless
0/53 TBD Devastator
0/8 Swordfish I

(b) normal/extended range

5/7 SBD Dauntless
3/5 TBD Devastator
2/3 Swordfish I

(c) manoeuvre/durability

16/14 SBD Dauntless
11/12 TBD Devastator
7/10 Swordfish I

(d) armour rating/max speed

1/217 SBD Dauntless
0/206 TBD Devastator
0/139 Swordfish U

(e)  max altitude

23,125 SBD Dauntless
16,640 TBD Devastator
8,560 Swordfish I

Well those figures show to me that the SBD Dauntless is a better plane - able to do more and more survivable.  when the TBM-1 Avenger becomes available in January 1942 its stats place it perhaps slightly in front of the Dauntless (certainly the Avenger has a far higher replacement rate).  Pity you don't have any free land carrier capable TB units able to upgrade to the Avenger.

Depends... depends if the bombs will penetrate. If they don't well, all the rest is irrelevant.
I like the Swordfish in CHS because it has range 4 (in fact, 5), and range is really the #1 stat. I wouldn't use range 2 torpedo bombers given a choice at all tho.

(7)  It's better to use DB bombs than TB "torpedoes" on subs spotted by naval search.

You'd use fleet CVs as ASW platforms??? [X(] Sounds like you're asking for it, doing that. HMS Courageous springs to mind.

That said I'm contemplating as much in my own pbem because the sheer effectiveness of IJN submarines is so astounding that I feel I almost have no choice. [&:]

(8)  DB have different final approach altitudes compared to TB.

I have never seen this matter, though I wish it would.

(9)  You have to avoid early CV on CV enounters.  Even if you add fighters to your carriers, your CV TF will have fewer fighters for CAP/escort than the enemy CV TF, plus your AA will be weaker.  Therefore your CV will be flying air strikes against merchantment/destroyers/auxiliaries.  Where is the disadvantage confronting your DB then?

True enough.

(10)  This mod is all about logistics.  You need to spread your airframe losses amongst your different aircraft models.

A replacement rate of 53 for a carrier based torpedo bomber strikes me as enormous, though I could be wrong.

(11)  Just because others recommend it a particular tactical/strategic option for Japan does not mean it is similarly viable for the Allies.  One needs to look at the capabilities which are different between Japan and the Allies and which in turn imposes different tactics/strategies on the two sides.

Well, it depends on the situation, yes. If I was Japan and planning on IO sorties, the Vals would be coming off, no doubt about it, and replaced with anything that could carry a torpedo, no matter how crap its stats, because the only value of the Vals would be as cannon fodder and decoys - and the Kate has adequate range. Against the Americans, I'd keep the Vals.

...you appear to be arguing for dismissing keeping options open outright, though.

If you still harbour any visions of early CV v CV battles in this mod, forget it. 

I very much doubt/hope he is considering that. In any mod. Or stock. Going up against the Zero Mod is suicide, that has to expire, at a minimum, to even countenance CV vs CV.

[1EyedJacks]

ORIGINAL: Alfred

1EyedJacks,

Ok, my last word on why you should not replace your CV carrier trained DB with carrier capable TB.  I had hoped my hints would have sufficed but others obviously do not have access to this mod and therefore will come to erroneous conclusions/advice.  The stats come from Empires Ablaze v1.2 (I don't have v1.3) but there should be no changes to the stats between the two versions.

(1)  To me it is gamey, but not everyone will so agree.  It is your game so whether it is gamey is up to your decision solely.

(2)  On 7 December 1941, there is only 1 carrier capable TB unit available (RAF 4 AACU flying Swordfish I located at Singapore).  The next arriving TB unit, which may or may not be carrier capable, arrives in 631 days.  Thus to implement this swap plan, someone needs to explain (a) where the required TB units are to be found, and (b) how do you get RAF 4 AACU on board a USN CV?

(3)  None of your early war British carriers have any DB to be swapped.  Heck, CVL Hermes doesn't even have any fighters on board and has no room to acquire any.

(4)  The reinforcing CVL Kittyhawk and CVL Hammondsport (2 and 36 days respectively) are fast aircraft transports but unable to keep with the fleet carriers, even if therre were any available TB.

(5)  Until 1 January 1942, the available carrier bomber models, and their comparison stats are:

(a) monthly replacements/at start pool stockpile

33/23 SBD Dauntless
0/53 TBD Devastator
0/8 Swordfish I

(b) normal/extended range

5/7 SBD Dauntless
3/5 TBD Devastator
2/3 Swordfish I

(c) manoeuvre/durability

16/14 SBD Dauntless
11/12 TBD Devastator
7/10 Swordfish I

(d) armour rating/max speed

1/217 SBD Dauntless
0/206 TBD Devastator
0/139 Swordfish U

(e)  max altitude

23,125 SBD Dauntless
16,640 TBD Devastator
8,560 Swordfish I

Well those figures show to me that the SBD Dauntless is a better plane - able to do more and more survivable.  when the TBM-1 Avenger becomes available in January 1942 its stats place it perhaps slightly in front of the Dauntless (certainly the Avenger has a far higher replacement rate).  Pity you don't have any free land carrier capable TB units able to upgrade to the Avenger.

So putting aside the minor technical point, which others overlooked, that you do not have TB units to swap onto CV, keeping DB on your carriers is a better policy anyway because:

(6)  The Dauntless has a longer range than the Devastator/Swordfish.  This is an important consideration for naval search missions.

(7)  It's better to use DB bombs than TB "torpedoes" on subs spotted by naval search.

(8)  DB have different final approach altitudes compared to TB.

(9)  You have to avoid early CV on CV enounters.  Even if you add fighters to your carriers, your CV TF will have fewer fighters for CAP/escort than the enemy CV TF, plus your AA will be weaker.  Therefore your CV will be flying air strikes against merchantment/destroyers/auxiliaries.  Where is the disadvantage confronting your DB then?

(10)  This mod is all about logistics.  You need to spread your airframe losses amongst your different aircraft models.

(11)  Just because others recommend it a particular tactical/strategic option for Japan does not mean it is similarly viable for the Allies.  One needs to look at the capabilities which are different between Japan and the Allies and which in turn imposes different tactics/strategies on the two sides.

If you still harbour any visions of early CV v CV battles in this mod, forget it.  All the cards in the deck are stacked in favour of Japan (gentle reminder about the effect of having advanced weather off is made here but issue not pursued).  In this mod, the only Allied fun is to survive 1942 in a strong enough condition (and that outcome is very doubtful) to use his new 1943 toys.  Halsey racing across the Pacific guarantees a Midway in reverse.

Alfred

Hi Alfred,

Yeah - I was sort of enamoured with a TB-heavy compliment of ACU on my carriers... I had looked at the TB numbers and replacements last night and was rapidly coming to the same conclusions in regards to actually having enough units and frames to pull it off.

I had not given consideration to the ASW and search range that you mentioned here tho - which leads me back to the normal compliment of TB/DB/F that the US CV start out with.

Gamey-ness in regards to something like what air units I'll deploy on CVs is a non-issue to me. This is a cut-throat anything-goes game where the only thing that will detour me from using an advantage is if it is a game-mechanics exploit. This was agreed upon in earlier conversations with Fionn. This mod is his backyard. He will be ruthless if he views me as a dangerious opponent. In truth, I think he might view me as at least a strong challenge simply because I have you and Michael as advisors <grin>.

In my game with GoodBoyLaddie we try to keep things real and we have very good communication with each other. There's not any arguing or bickering and we just play well together. We both want the game to be fun for each other.

In this game against Nemo I can see I will not have that type of a relationship. Simple house rules discussions become a battle of words and a chance to seek dominance. This game will be advisarial in nature - but hopefully not mean-spirited. I view this game as a chance to really grow in the game and as an opportunity to meet new people. I am pitting an allied team against someone that has a demonstrated and proven track record for really getting the most of his board pieces and of developing strong, well-thought-out strategies.

And I call it a team because I have already grown by simply discussing this mod with both you and Michael - which is kind of funny in a way because the game hasn't even got past turn 1 yet. [:D] I enjoy brain-storming and teamwork.

As to the advanced weather off... This might hurt your feelings but I almost demanded the Advanced Weather off. [8|] Nemo planned to have Advanced Weather On - I talked him out of it.

I just simply hate the Advanced Weather model. I have actually experienced rain and storms in regions that lasted over a month and I think something inside me just snapped. I simply hate playing with the Advanced Weather On and that's that... [:D]

[ny59giants]

I just ran the replay of my Turn 1 vs Damian. He attacked Russia with mixed results.&nbsp;I have some ideas brewing, but want to use them first before sharing them in public. [;)]

[Alfred]

1EyedJacks,

I am pleased to hear you are doing your own research. Notwithstanding whatever I say, I want you to do your own checking so that you can assess the value of my comments. You can rely upon my comments being considered and based on the specifics of this mod, but they will not always be consistent with your own thoughts. All roads may lead to Rome, but in this mod, there are some back roads not leading to Tokyo that will need to be also traversed. Always remember the Roman policy, better to follow a poor general than to have two good generals at odds. History shows the wisdom of this policy - when armies broke this maxim, disasters such as Cannae, Adrianople and Hattin occurred.

Regarding gameyness and weather, they were included because that post was intended to be my last will and testament on the subject (and subsequently I noted I had omitted the extra TF fuel consumption...doh!). I was not trying to reopen those points as evidenced by not adducing supporting arguments (as comparison look at my detailed commentary regarding the Soviet truce when I specifically wanted you to reconsider that issue). No my feelings are not hurt because you have articulated logical and plausible grounds in support of your decision...and it is your match.

I think your opponent is concerned about the outcome of this match, but I don't think it is due to your advisors. After all he is in no position to know what advice you are receiving, nor how much of it you are implementing.

Yes I think you summed up this match perfectly by saying it will be very adversarial, unlike your other match, but I don't think you will find your opponent to be mean spirited. I fully expect that in his AAR he will duly note when you pull off good actions and demonstrate good skill. He will abide by the HRs, it's your responsibility to fully understand them eg Nemo121's explanation in the open forum regarding the expenditure of PPs preventing hit and run raids is completely accurate - this is just another example of the all pervasive logistics considerations necessary to play this mod successfully.

Alfred

[Alfred]

continuing on from our previous discussion on Allied strategy.

(B6) See previous comments under (B1). Do not concentrate sub patrols in a single area as this will assist your opponent in concentrating his ASW assets. As always try to stretch his assets so that they cannot concentrate. Note carefully IJN radio chatter and signit and direct your sub patrols to those locations. The last planes to be evacuated from the Philippines and from any other front line base must be PBY Catalinas because they will considerably aid your sub patrols. However initially, those subs which can be spared from evacuating cadres, should focus on sub minelaying. In v1.3 Vladivostok should be a level 9 port thus allowing for sub mine reloads. Use your Soviet subs to mine Sakhalin, Chosen and Home Island ports from day 1. How dangerous the minefields is largely irrelevant, what matters is that he is forced to keep ASW assets away from the normal Allied targeted sea routes across the South China Sea. Put sub laid mines in Borneo ports, in captured Filipino ports, force him to employ each IJN ship (CV and BB too) as once only minesweepers.

(B7) (i) You must be ruthless and constant in your objectives. You cannot mix and match from your advisors comments as if they were a smorgasbord luncheon. As long as your critical, logistical objectives are being met, disregard Allied losses. Do not panic in response to his maskirovka.

(ii)(a) There is nothing significant you can do to reduce the devastation from the 7 December 1941 port attacks against Manila and Vladivostok (now that there is no Soviet truce, I will provide you with detailed comments regarding the Soviets in a separate post).
(b) Against the Palembang port attack, you should rush Dutch fighters to meet his unescorted bombers (and perhaps transports paradroping on Palembang). Note however that Palembang is very weakly garrisoned and therefore you must be careful to avoid having any aircraft located there from being overrun.
(c) For Singapore, you can disperse your fighters to provide LRCAP over the port but really you are better served by using the Buffaloes on short range naval attack against the Mersing invasion fleet or on LRCAP against paradrops in Malaya.
(d) Do not disperse your Pearl Harbor aircraft as they must remain in situ to draw in Japanese aircraft to the only Allied flak trap which is Pearl Harbor (also note my previous comments regarding the vulnerability of your dispersal sites from Pearl) and to provide LRCAP over the other islands against paradrops. He will use Kates to suppress Pearl Harbor's airfield and they will suffer heavy losses from flak. As long as you retain aircraft at Pearl, he will send in Zeros and Kates, make his suffer operational and flak losses there. On 8 December 1941, all ships capable of traveling 3 hexes per phase should flee, in a sauve quil peut manner at flank speed from Pearl Harbor. It does not matter if they run out of fuel 4-6 hexes from West Coast ports, the KB will not follow and if it does follow Pearl gets a respite and your more seriously damaged ships can break out.
(e) He will position significant naval assets near the Sunda Strait to cut off fleeing ships. You must therefore reinforce the adjacent Dutch bases with Dutch air on 7 December 1941 to spot his subs and escort Dutch Martins operating at 1 hex max range.
(f) Neither flee Force Z up the Strait of Malacca, nor attempt to interdict any Japanese landing anywhere with it. On 8 December 1941 there will be fewer (but still present) Japanese air and naval assets covering the Sunda and Lombok straits compared to the Strait of Malacca or any invasion beach. Force Z must run silent and at flank speed away from the SRA - it is required for the defense of India. Again it does not matter too much if it runs out of fuel in the middle of the Indian Ocean. Force Z must not be discovered in the Sea of Java or transiting through any of the Dutch straits on 8 or 9 December 1941. If necessary place short legged DD in a separate TF to avoid their refueling slowing down Force Z.
(g) Do not even think about using the Boise, Houston, Dutch ships etc to interdict the initial Japanese invasion TFs. Used in penny packet TF they will be eventually overwhelmed. You must flee, in silent mode and at flank speed, all Dutch and American surface warships to a rendezvous port (Timor or northern Australia) and combine them into a large 25 ship ABDA SCTF to hit Japanese landings in the Moluccas/Ceram, or to escort your Rapid Reaction Force ("RRF") to counter invade weakly garrisoned bases. Save your fleet and he will be more circumspect and it will impact upon his timetable.
(h) Remove Dutch auxiliaries from the DEI ASAP - they have no future there. Ditto for undamaged American auxiliaries at Manila because Manila is unsuitable to support any naval operations.
(i) Send all Dutch and American PT immediately to Singapore. Singapore is perfect as a hornets nest for PTs to operate on a daily basis offensively against Mersing and Johore Bahru. Pestered daily by your PTs against Mersing, he will be tempted to clear them out with DD which in turn then provides your Singapore bombers, operating at a max hex range of 1, to strike. Only at Mersing do the Allies have a chance to inflict significant naval losses to the Japanese during December 1941. It is where you can indirectly slow down the Japanese timetable for conquering Malaya. Make Mersing the naval equivalent of the air bridge to Stalingrad.
(j) Ships fleeing the Phillippines must avoid both the South China Sea and the Macassar Strait. Instead consider using the Philippine Sea and then hug the New Guinea coast. Alternatively travel east of Morotai and thence south to Darwin via the Ceram Sea.
(k) USN CV TF at sea on 7 December 1941 need to sprint at flank speed north to Alaska and south to the Line Islands (and therafter to Fiji/New Caledonia. Of course exact steaming details depends on where exactly the KB is positioned off Pearl Harbor. Your obective is to get the USN CV away from the KB and into position to defeat weakly escorted Japanese invasions in the north and south Pacific or to escort your RRFs into those areas.
(l) Form the Hong Kong DD into a fast transport TF and evacuate a substantial amount of an LCU.

(iii) He will capture on the cheap Alaskan and Pacific bases. ASAP you should create RRF to recapture those bases before he has time to build them up. Alaska is particularly important because you need to maintain sea contact with the Soviets and be in position to attack his flank if the objective of MG#2 is the continental USA.

(iv) Not much can be done in December to oppose suppression of AF sized 5+, other than to try to make them flak traps by moving AA units into position. Look at what AA assets you have at Bataan and move them north to Clark.

(v) Palembang will be an early target, perhaps even a candidate for a paradrop. Thus move Dutch fighters here on 7 December 1941 to intercept unescorted bombers/transports but be wary of them being subsequently overrun.

(vi) You must not adopt a land Sir Robin strategy. In order to delay the commencement of Phase II you must hold on to Malaya, Java and Luzon at least until 31 December 1941 using static defense and air interdiction of Japanese supply convoys.
(a) Immediately save a cadres (using subs) of each British, Indian, Commonwealth, American and Australian LCU in the SRA. Also save selected Dutch and Filipino LCU to use up their monthly replacements. Saving the cadres takes priority over sending out subs on patrol or mine laying missions.
(b) RRFs must be assembled ASAP to launch re-conquest operations on New Caledonia, Alaska and the Line Islands. Do not discount the possibility of using subs to transport your RRF - you have suitable LCUs for sub transport located at Darwin and Rabaul.
(c) Do not immediately run to festung Singapore as the northern Malaya air bases must firstly not be quickly surrendered to paradrops and the resultant rebasing of Kates and Vals. Secondly conserve your Singapore supplies by not rushing additional mouths to feed there (particularly as you want to launch daily PT attacks from there against Mersing), feed your Malaya army from the local supply generated in central Malaya and deny that very same supply from feeding the enemy. If you do not panic into running full pelt into festung Singapore, there is just an outside chance that the initial Japanese invasion wave will not be strong enough to succeed.
(d) On Luzon you need to defend Baguio and Lingayen so immediately retreat units to the north back to Baguio (include one unit from Lingayen to move over to Baguio). He will land on empty Lucena, so you should LRCAP Lucena to intercept his air transports and move the unit at Lemon Bay south to Lucena, replacing it with a small unit from Manila. You want to keep Japanese LCU out of Manila and Clark for as long as possible to enable them to continue producing local supplies.
(e) On Mindanao, try to consolidate your units to protect Zamboanga until the reinforcing unit arrives there. Also not the vulnerable location of your B-17s here.
(f) On Java all bases must immediately be given a garrison. LRCAP any which will lack a garrison until 8 December 1941 to guard against paradrops. Check that all LCU have an appropriate objective set. Commence evacuating all of Borneo back to Java (note your 7 December PP expenditure limitations). Resisting Japanese invasions at Tarakan, Balikpapan, Singakawang etc for 2-3 days will delay Phase II less than if you consolidate on Java.
(g) Evacuate Menando LCU and redeploy the LCU to Timor. All Timor bases must be garrisoned against paradrops, and don't forget to LRCAP the middle base which will be a few days without a garrison.

(vii) To minimise your pilot losses, reduce your plane ranges so that offensive sorties take place over friendly territory and stagger their altitudes. Concentrate on hitting Japanese invasion fleets at the beachhead, not 1 or more hexes away from the coast where his CV CAP will be. Force him to incur additional operations losses by using LRCAP to cover his invasions. Do not move your at start Spitfire unit to the frontlines (although Aden to Karachi is OK) before Spitfire replacements come online. You need the at start Spitfire unit to combat the invasion of India (and avoid the maskirovka of MG#1). As much as possible, try to time any air strikes against his CV to when the enemy CV are low on sorties.

sorry folks, thus it for today, tune in tomorrow, same bat channel, same bat time for the conclusion of the allied strategy.

Alfred

[ny59giants]

Dutch LBA - a note on this since you are unfamilar with the Allies. You will need to get 20k worth of supply at a base in Java before you can accept replacements for your Dutch planes. The only way around this is by changing command (usually to SE Asia) and them being close enough to Singapore to pass the various test. I try to get some of the Dutch TBs filled out by this method.

[1EyedJacks]

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Dutch LBA - a note on this since you are unfamilar with the Allies. You will need to get 20k worth of supply at a base in Java before you can accept replacements for your Dutch planes. The only way around this is by changing command (usually to SE Asia) and them being close enough to Singapore to pass the various test. I try to get some of the Dutch TBs filled out by this method.

Jeepers Michael,

I never realized how bad it sucks to be the allied at the beginning of the war... What's up with this crap about not being able to upgrade ACU in Malaya/DEI until 1942? What a bummer! [:D][:D]

Good advice. I'll look at the bases in the region and see what looks good decently defensable and is still in the area - Batavia maybe?

[ny59giants]

PM sent as my opponent could read it here. [:-]

[EUBanana]

ORIGINAL: 1EyedJacks

I never realized how bad it sucks to be the allied at the beginning of the war... What's up with this crap about not being able to upgrade ACU in Malaya/DEI until 1942? What a bummer! [:D][:D]

Oh yeah. You're gonna get used as a punching bag for 6 months minimum. [:D]

But the Allied side is much more forgiving of mistakes, which is why I prefer them. The Japanese economy management puts me off, and the fact that Japan absolutely cannot afford error, even small error, makes me terrified.

Good advice. I'll look at the bases in the region and see what looks good decently defensable and is still in the area - Batavia maybe?

Batavia/Soerabaja are defensible to a point - problem is the Dutch fighters are totally outclassed. The geography is good for defence, the assets are not.

Once Singapore is Japanese hands the Java Sea is his personal lake, which seriously constrains your options for movement. And Palembang is so near Singapore that it will be at a state of near collapse with lightning speed when that fortress falls and is up and running and in the Japanese Empire. So at that point you only got Java left in the DEI.

He should go for Timor before Java, so he can isolate the Dutch and trap as many as possible. He might skip on that if he commits a lot of CV power.

Ideally, IMHO, you want to fight him, attritt him and slow him down as much as possible, but then when the Rising Sun is being hoisted over Batavia/Singapore/Palembang/Wherever, you want to be safely in the hold of an AK and moving to the rear to R&R and be recycled into the grinder. Thats not a Sir Robin approach, just a 'keep your line of retreat as open as possible' approach.

Later on you will find out that Java is extremely defensible if you have adequate, even if not stellar, assets, should you decide to attack it with the Allies in 1943. [:D]. (Unfortunately the Dutch do not have those assets). I tried the early Allied invasion of Java, while he was busy in India. I got so far but then bogged down, there just isn't anywhere you can build up a powerbase between Java and Australia. Celebes, Timor and Bali do not cut it.

[Alfred]

and now for the final instalment on initial Allied strategy,
&nbsp;
(B8) (i)&nbsp; The most important thing about Phase II is to avoid falling for his maskirovka.&nbsp; He will be frustrated if he cannot destroy your local air and naval reserves before he is due to launch his MG#2.&nbsp; Assuming India is the target for MG#2 (but remember there are other possibilities), do not waste time moving units from the West Coast to India - see comments under (B3) above.&nbsp; The only LCU you should send to the sub-continent are the Chinese LCU attached to SEAC.&nbsp; They should be moved initially to Burma to reinforce your defences there and to build up to 100% of TOE.
&nbsp;
(ii)&nbsp; from 7 December 1941 you must use your Chinese Command LCU aggressively to slow down his withdrawal of units (land and air) from that theatre.&nbsp; Move Chinese LCU to (a) interdict his LOC and (b) into bases but with no intention of capturing the base, the intention being merely to stop the local production of Japanese supplies.
&nbsp;
(B9)&nbsp; Resist the temptation to launch air strikes against his CV during Phase I.&nbsp; Your aircraft must be husbanded to be used in Phase II or against Japanese merchantment.&nbsp; Thus again limit the range of your bombers and stagger their approach altitudes.&nbsp; Forget all you have learnt about optimal altitudes, the object at the beginning is to save pilots/airframes, not to get an additional 2-3 bomb/torpedo hits per strike.
&nbsp;
(B10)&nbsp; Form your Hong Kong DD into a Fast Transport TF and evacuate LCU ASAP.&nbsp; Head the FTTF for Timor, where after depositing the LCU, the DD can join the ABDA naval fleet (see (B7)(ii)(g) above).&nbsp; Use your Chinese LCU (as per (B8)(ii) above) aggressively whilst you have the supply to do so.&nbsp; You&nbsp;lack transport aircraft in India and Russia to make any noticeable improvement to your supply situation in China.&nbsp; With a bit of luck, you will disrupt your opponent's plans to destroy Chinese logistics.&nbsp; It will probably take you about 14-18 days to get&nbsp;most of your Chinese LCU into position to advance - this will play into your hands because it will encourage your opponent into thinking you are playing passively in China and therefore safe for him to remove units from China, thereby weakening his defences.&nbsp; Do not forget the Japanese river transportation capabilities from Canton and Shanghai which allows him to land units behind your front lines.
&nbsp;
that's it folks for the initial Allied strategy
&nbsp;
As I now understand it, there is no longer a truce with&nbsp;the Soviets.&nbsp; I will post separately what can be done with the Soviets.
&nbsp;
Alfred&nbsp;&nbsp;

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: 1EyedJacks

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Dutch LBA - a note on this since you are unfamilar with the Allies. You will need to get 20k worth of supply at a base in Java before you can accept replacements for your Dutch planes. The only way around this is by changing command (usually to SE Asia) and them being close enough to Singapore to pass the various test. I try to get some of the Dutch TBs filled out by this method.

Jeepers Michael,

I never realized how bad it sucks to be the allied at the beginning of the war... What's up with this crap about not being able to upgrade ACU in Malaya/DEI until 1942? What a bummer! [:D][:D]

Good advice. I'll look at the bases in the region and see what looks good decently defensable and is still in the area - Batavia maybe?

It is far worse than you think, 1EyedJacks.

Firstly, you cannot upgrade any British air units before 1 May 1942, nor any Dutch air unit before 1 July 1942. Secondly, have a look at both your airframe and pilot replacement rates, particularly for the Dutch. In terms of replacing Dutch airframes you will not really notice the lack of a 20,000 supply stockpile because there are so few replacement airframes available, hence why I keep on harping about reducing the range of your planes and husbanding your air units to be used against merchantment, not IJN CV/CVL.

Also don't get your hopes up about being able to fill out your Dutch T.IV - again check their airframe replacement rates.

IMHO, it would be a grievious mistake to change the command of an ABDA base to SEAC Command (or other command). Firstly, the PP are far better spent changing your restricted LCU for cadre evautions. Remember, in this mod Japan starts off with 12,000 PP whereas the Allies have only 2,000 at the start - and whilst the allies admittedly get double the weekly Japanese PP allocation rate, it will take the Allies 80 weeks to regain PP parity with Japan. Secondly, you do not want any Dutch base to be siphoning off from festung Singapore, supplies which are better consumed at Singapore in support of the garrison, your naval attack bombers and your vicious hornets nest of PT attackers (see earlier post).

Batavia is an important initial base because of the strong IJN forces he will have from day 1 covering the Sunda Strait, targetting fleeing ships. But remember all Java bases must be covered from day 1 against paradrops. Once he gets a foothold on Java, unless you can eject him within 24-48 hours, Java will be lost within 14 days. You need to stop him on any Java beach plus have a strong mobile reserve on Java to quickly eject him. Tough, ain't it? That is why I have already posted that you need to evacuate your Dutch units from Borneo to Java ASAP. You must consolidate.

Welcome to the wonderful world of the Allies in this mod. All traces of bushido behaviour must be left at the cloak room and a nice pair of bookkeeper glasses and cardigans instead worn to the party.

Alfred