ASW: Will anything be done in AE to reduce the lethality of Japanese naval search and ASW AC?

[LargeSlowTarget]

Funny, I would love to have those smart bombs and sink every spotted sub... I have those 500 Lilies and Helens and Betties plus floatplanes on ASW and each turn they spot so many subs in certain areas that I could walk from Tokyo to Takao or from Truk to Rabaul  without getting my feet wet - but I rarely see any attacks and even less hits. I hunt down spotted subs with ASW-TFs of DDs, PCs and PGs with high-rated Rear Admirals in charge and there are many ASW contacts, but to see an ashcan being dropped is like Xmas and a hit like winning the World Series. My efforts do not even disturb my opponent, who keeps concentrating more and more subs in those areas. The only benefit is that I can micromanagement my TFs around known positions and swap escorts between TFs moving in and out of the danger zone. [/align]

[bradfordkay]

LST, I have a qestion... how effective has his sub offensive been? In my experience, if I can spot a lot of his subs, they don't get a chance at attacking anything. Has that not been the case in your game?

[Rossj]

Apollo 11

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: AdmSpruance

First of all I appreciate you commenting on your previous experiences and your prior testing. Like you, I am keeping my fingers crossed that this will be fixed in AE. However, when I read JWilkerson's AAR about how he runs his convoys under land based naval search and ASW until the Allied player gets frustrated and actually GIVES UP ON TRYING TO ATTACK JAP OIL/RESOURCE CONVOYS ....and realizing that he is one of the programmers...that I wonder if the game developers are MORE concerned about play balance than historicity.

And just to clarify my position in respect to your comments:

1)I dont care about Japan guarding their convoys....Bravo...Bravo...
2)I dont care about strong Jap ASW TFs.....any sub I lose to guarded convoys or ASW TFs just demonstrates to me that the game engine is working.

My ONLY complaint is that Jap naval search and ASW AC ALWAYS spot Allied subs and drop incredibly lethal AP bombs on them....there are certain areas of the ocean such as the Malacca Straits that are a death sentence for Allied subs. Japanese land and naval bombers on naval search and ASW should be required to load depth charges as ordnance so that hits would not be as lethal as AP bombs....which are almost impossible to deliver on subs.

AND......strange as it may seem, subs should NOT be treated as surface units for naval search and ASW as they mostly submerged during daylight in war zones.

And if you want to get into Allied fanboy territory Allied subs' air search radar should help enable them to avoid Japanese naval search and ASW AC.

I paid special attention to many areas that particuralry interest me in WitP-AE and I got answers (among other stuff) from WitP-AE developers that:

#1
There are search arcs IIRC! [:)] [&o][&o][&o]

#2
That Air ASW and Air Naval Search was rewritten and thus that Air ASW and Air Naval Search discovery of ships and/or submarines was severly toned down IIRC! [:)] [&o][&o][&o]


I sincerely hope that this is all as it is "advertised" and will keep all my fingers crossed! [:D]


Leo "Apollo11"

It has been pointed out that any competent Japanese player is going to use his aircraft extensively for asw patrol and will form convoys that are well protected by escorts. I believe this foreknowledge is the primary reason for the Japanese success in the game.


I think the game routines were originally designed based on historical Japanes and U.S. tactics and in testing got historical results. I don't know if the problem is with the search routines or not. The problem might be with the AI, in that it doesn't adapt to human player actions. If you are the Japanese player, you'd be an idiot not to set up extensive ASW air patrols and well protected convoys. If you are the U.S. player, you would be equally stupid if you didn't recognize this and develop a counter strategy. The bottomline is that U.S. subs can't run rampant in the Pacific.

I think I read someplace that the U.S. lost 25% of their subs...if true, that is a pretty high price to pay given the tactics employed by Japan in the war.

[LargeSlowTarget]

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

LST, I have a qestion... how effective has his sub offensive been? In my experience, if I can spot a lot of his subs, they don't get a chance at attacking anything. Has that not been the case in your game?

Not very effective actually, but this is due to lack of targets. My opponent's sub concentration around Truk is deployed against largely imaginary threats of the IJN against his invasion activities in the Solomons-Rabaul-PNG. He has not figured out yet that I will not fight a major sea battle in this area of many bases full of Allied LBA.
And his sub concentration along the southern coast of the Home Islands and the Ryukus does not encounter many targets since I tend to run few but big convoys from the SRA to the Home Islands, which by daily routing instructions are hugging the coast of China and arrive in Sasebo or reach Osaka through the backdoor i.e. via Tsushima Strait, thus avoiding subs as much as possible.
So indeed spotting does help getting ships through by re-routing of TFs around known positions. But my gripe is the lack of actual attacks by LBA and ASW-TFs. Avoiding won't work in the long run, once my opponent has figured out what is going on and has more subs to blanket everything. I want to sink his subs before he grows wise! But as I said, despite my ASW measures I do not see any 'lethality' of Japanese ASW that would need reduction.

[racndoc]

Well if you are not experiencing this "lethality" then you should talk to a Japanese player that knows how to set up his search and ASW for maximum effect. In my game there is a dead zone from the western tip of Sumatra to Timor where virtually no sub can transit. Im not talking about sub patrols....Im talking about transit during minelaying and transport missions. Many subs are hit not once but multiple times each turn. Supposedly subs are less detectable on transport and minelaying missions. I shudder to think what might happen if I actually had nerve to place them on a patrol mission in the SRA and actually attempt to attack Japanese shipping.

We have however recently instituted a house rule restricting naval search and ASW to 6000 ft and above and that seems to have reduced the carnage significantly.

[LargeSlowTarget]

Well, then I may not know how to set up my search and ASW for maximum effect. In my current game I have sunk 'only' 49 subs (by June 43). 26 of them in port, one each by LBA in Singapore and Tarawa, one by 16.1in guns at Port Moresby, one by 14in guns at Tarawa, and 22 by KB at Manila - so those do not count. Four have been sunk by mines, five by surface ASW and 14 by LBA at sea. [/align]5 resp. 14 does not sound much for all my efforts - currently I have 870+ (!) level bombers and 180+ dive bombers plus virtually all floatplanes on ASW duty. Experience range from 92 to 57, with a large majority of groups above 75. And I hunt subs spotted near the coast of Japan with eight hunter-killer groups of ususally 2 DDs and 3 PGs/PCs. [/align] [/align]Latest search results - numerous spottings, six attacks, one hit:[/align] [/align]
[font=arial]OPERATIONAL REPORT FOR 06/01/43[/font]
[font=arial] [/font]
[font=arial]Ki-48-I Lily reports shadow in water at 22, 43[/font]
[font=arial]Ki-49 Helen reports suspected submarine at 57, 40[/font]
[font=arial]Ki-49 Helen reports suspected submarine at 61, 45[/font]
[font=arial]Ki-49 Helen attacking Snook at 61,45[/font][/b]
[font=arial]Ki-49 Helen reports periscope at 61, 45[/font]
[font=arial]Ki-49 Helen reports suspected submarine at 63, 45[/font]
[font=arial]Ki-48-II Lily reports suspected submarine at 63, 45[/font]
[font=arial]Ki-48-II Lily reports periscope at 61, 45[/font]
[font=arial]Ki-48-II Lily reports shadow in water at 61, 45[/font]
[font=arial]G4M2 Betty reports shadow in water at 65, 79[/font]
[font=arial]G4M2 Betty reports shadow in water at 60, 78[/font]
[font=arial]G4M2 Betty reports shadow in water at 65, 81[/font]
[font=arial]G4M2 Betty reports radio transmissions at 65, 79[/font]
[font=arial]G4M2 Betty reports suspected submarine at 60, 78[/font]
[font=arial]H8K Emily reports periscope at 60, 78[/font]
[font=arial]H8K Emily reports periscope at 61, 82[/font]
[font=arial]H8K Emily reports shadow in water at 63, 78[/font]
[font=arial]G4M2 Betty reports shadow in water at 65, 81[/font]
[font=arial]G4M2 Betty reports suspected submarine at 64, 82[/font]
[font=arial]G4M2 Betty reports shadow in water at 63, 78[/font]
[font=arial]G4M2 Betty reports periscope at 65, 81[/font]
[font=arial]G4M2 Betty reports suspected submarine at 65, 79[/font]
[font=arial]G4M2 Betty reports periscope at 69, 76[/font]
[font=arial]G4M2 Betty reports suspected submarine at 64, 82[/font]
[font=arial]G4M2 Betty reports periscope at 63, 78[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports suspected submarine at 65, 79[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports shadow in water at 65, 81[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports shadow in water at 65, 79[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports shadow in water at 63, 45[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports periscope at 61, 45[/font]
[font=arial]B5N2 Kate reports shadow in water at 70, 35[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports shadow in water at 63, 45[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports shadow in water at 58, 45[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports diving submarine at 63, 45[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports diving submarine at 61, 45[/font]
[font=arial]D4Y Judy attacking[/b] Haddock at 65,79[/font]
[font=arial]Haddock is reported HIT[/b][/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports suspected submarine at 63, 45[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports shadow in water at 61, 45[/font]
[font=arial]H8K Emily reports shadow in water at 65, 81[/font]
[font=arial]H8K Emily reports shadow in water at 60, 81[/font]
[font=arial]H8K Emily reports shadow in water at 63, 82[/font]
[font=arial]H8K Emily reports periscope at 60, 78[/font]
[font=arial]H8K Emily reports suspected submarine at 62, 81[/font]
[font=arial]H8K Emily reports periscope at 64, 82[/font]
[font=arial]H8K Emily reports suspected submarine at 63, 78[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports suspected submarine at 63, 45[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports shadow in water at 22, 43[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports diving submarine at 20, 40[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports suspected submarine at 60, 78[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports shadow in water at 57, 74[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports suspected submarine at 58, 45[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports suspected submarine at 58, 45[/font]
[font=arial]Ki-49 Helen reports periscope at 58, 45[/font]
[font=arial]G3M Nell attacking[/b] Haddock at 65,79[/font]
[font=arial]G3M Nell reports shadow in water at 60, 78[/font]
[font=arial]G3M Nell reports suspected submarine at 69, 76[/font]
[font=arial]G3M Nell reports periscope at 64, 82[/font]
[font=arial]G3M Nell reports periscope at 63, 78[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports shadow in water at 63, 45[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports periscope at 61, 45[/font]
[font=arial]Ki-49 Helen reports periscope at 57, 45[/font]
[font=arial]Ki-49 Helen reports suspected submarine at 58, 45[/font]
[font=arial]Ki-49 Helen reports shadow in water at 61, 45[/font]
[font=arial]Ki-48-II Lily reports periscope at 63, 45[/font]
[font=arial]Ki-48-II Lily reports shadow in water at 61, 45[/font]
[font=arial]Ki-32 Mary reports shadow in water at 58, 45[/font]
[font=arial]Ki-49 Helen attacking[/b] Tunny at 63,45[/font]
[font=arial]Ki-49 Helen reports shadow in water at 61, 45[/font]
[font=arial]Ki-48-II Lily reports shadow in water at 58, 45[/font]
[font=arial]Ki-49 Helen reports suspected submarine at 58, 45[/font]
[font=arial]Ki-49 Helen reports suspected submarine at 61, 45[/font]
[font=arial]Ki-48-II Lily reports diving submarine at 63, 45[/font]
[font=arial]Ki-48-II Lily reports periscope at 63, 45[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports shadow in water at 65, 79[/font]
[font=arial]G4M2 Betty reports suspected submarine at 65, 81[/font]
[font=arial]G4M2 Betty reports periscope at 65, 79[/font]
[font=arial]G4M2 Betty reports suspected submarine at 60, 81[/font]
[font=arial]G4M2 Betty reports periscope at 62, 81[/font]
[font=arial]G4M2 Betty reports shadow in water at 64, 82[/font]
[font=arial]G4M2 Betty reports suspected submarine at 63, 78[/font]
[font=arial]G4M2 Betty reports shadow in water at 65, 81[/font]
[font=arial]G4M2 Betty reports shadow in water at 60, 81[/font]
[font=arial]G4M2 Betty reports shadow in water at 60, 78[/font]
[font=arial]G4M2 Betty reports periscope at 64, 82[/font]
[font=arial]G4M2 Betty reports shadow in water at 63, 78[/font]
[font=arial]H8K Emily reports periscope at 65, 81[/font]
[font=arial]H8K Emily reports shadow in water at 60, 78[/font]
[font=arial]H8K Emily reports shadow in water at 64, 82[/font]
[font=arial]H8K Emily reports shadow in water at 63, 78[/font]
[font=arial]G4M2 Betty reports diving submarine at 65, 81[/font]
[font=arial]G4M2 Betty reports shadow in water at 65, 79[/font]
[font=arial]G4M2 Betty reports diving submarine at 60, 81[/font]
[font=arial]G4M2 Betty reports shadow in water at 60, 78[/font]
[font=arial]G4M2 Betty reports suspected submarine at 59, 80[/font]
[font=arial]G4M2 Betty reports suspected submarine at 62, 81[/font]
[font=arial]G4M2 Betty reports periscope at 64, 82[/font]
[font=arial]G4M2 Betty reports periscope at 65, 81[/font]
[font=arial]G4M2 Betty reports shadow in water at 65, 79[/font]
[font=arial]G4M2 Betty reports suspected submarine at 60, 78[/font]
[font=arial]G4M2 Betty reports shadow in water at 59, 80[/font]
[font=arial]G4M2 Betty reports shadow in water at 62, 81[/font]
[font=arial]G4M2 Betty reports shadow in water at 63, 83[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports suspected submarine at 65, 81[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports diving submarine at 64, 82[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports shadow in water at 63, 78[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports shadow in water at 69, 76[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports shadow in water at 64, 82[/font]
[font=arial]E7K2 Alf reports shadow in water at 58, 45[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports shadow in water at 76, 36[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports shadow in water at 76, 36[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports periscope at 58, 45[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports diving submarine at 61, 45[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports diving submarine at 63, 45[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports periscope at 61, 45[/font]
[font=arial]D4Y Judy reports shadow in water at 65, 79[/font]
[font=arial]H8K Emily attacking[/b] S-32 at 76,36[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports suspected submarine at 63, 45[/font]
[font=arial]H8K Emily reports shadow in water at 65, 81[/font]
[font=arial]H8K Emily reports diving submarine at 65, 79[/font]
[font=arial]H8K Emily reports periscope at 63, 82[/font]
[font=arial]H8K Emily reports shadow in water at 69, 76[/font]
[font=arial]H8K Emily reports shadow in water at 62, 81[/font]
[font=arial]H8K Emily reports shadow in water at 63, 83[/font]
[font=arial]D4Y Judy reports periscope at 60, 81[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports diving submarine at 22, 43[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports shadow in water at 19, 41[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake attacking[/b] KXII at 19,41[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports shadow in water at 65, 79[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports shadow in water at 58, 76[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports radio transmissions at 63, 78[/font]
[font=arial]F1M2 Pete reports periscope at 57, 74[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports shadow in water at 58, 45[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports shadow in water at 61, 45[/font]
[font=arial]Ki-49 Helen reports shadow in water at 57, 45[/font]
[font=arial]G3M Nell reports suspected submarine at 65, 81[/font]
[font=arial]G3M Nell reports shadow in water at 65, 79[/font]
[font=arial]G3M Nell reports shadow in water at 60, 81[/font]
[font=arial]G3M Nell reports suspected submarine at 63, 82[/font]
[font=arial]G3M Nell reports shadow in water at 69, 76[/font]
[font=arial]G3M Nell reports shadow in water at 62, 81[/font]
[font=arial]G3M Nell reports diving submarine at 64, 82[/font]
[font=arial]G3M Nell reports shadow in water at 63, 78[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports periscope at 63, 45[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports suspected submarine at 63, 45[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports shadow in water at 61, 45[/font][/align]

[treespider]

I sense we have a situation of beauty is in the eye of the beholder...or in this case lethality is in the eye of the beholder.

[LargeSlowTarget]

Probably [:)]. For me, six attacks and one hit during a typical turn and 14 subs sunk in 18 months of war by a massive LBA effort just do not qualify as 'carnage' by 'smart bombs' throughout a 'dead zone'. As Japanese player, I'm used to other standards - I would describe Allied ASW as lethal...     [/align] [/align] [/align]

[Sardaukar]

Even in WitP lethality of Air ASW can be toned down *a lot* by adding device called Air Search Radar to subs. It's been long time since I did my tests, but devices were included to CHS. IIRC, sub air search radar reduced hits from air attacks down to 25% compared to unmodded WitP. And I just gave them "sort of historical ranges and effect" (=detection chance/value), going for quite low values for SD and SV.

Even device called schnorkel was added to some Dutch subs (basicly low effect Air Search radar).

So if unhappy about lethality of Air ASW in WitP, stop whining and do something about it, like I did. I bet you will be lot happier if subs are hit only 25% after this relatively easy modification.

[Cmdrcain]

I'm scratching my head here since in my game vsanother, My planes (I'm Japan) don't hit subs much.

plenty of sighting reports and such, but I'm not seeing the complained effects otherwise my opponents subs in kwajalen
area would all be snuffed out by now.

Kates, Vals, Nells, Bettys, Float planes, etc only occasionally may get a hit, during many turns, not in any way every turn, might go through 10-15 turns before see a reported hit and I always consider it "reported" and that doesn't necessary mean actually hit...

If it is tweaked for AE, odds are that then using planes on ASW be pretty worthless if even harder!

The main function it seems for planes on ASW is to spot subs allowing nearby ASW ships to be moved in..
and even then surface ASW aren't all that great
hitting subs either.

So i really don't get this thread..

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

Probably [:)]. For me, six attacks and one hit during a typical turn and 14 subs sunk in 18 months of war by a massive LBA effort just do not qualify as 'carnage' by 'smart bombs' throughout a 'dead zone'. As Japanese player, I'm used to other standards - I would describe Allied ASW as lethal...     [/align] [/align] [/align]

If you have one hit every turn then this will mean 365 damaged subs from 10 sys to "sunk" and not a single operational sub left. I would certainly call that lethal...

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

Well, then I may not know how to set up my search and ASW for maximum effect. In my current game I have sunk 'only' 49 subs (by June 43). 26 of them in port, one each by LBA in Singapore and Tarawa, one by 16.1in guns at Port Moresby, one by 14in guns at Tarawa, and 22 by KB at Manila - so those do not count. Four have been sunk by mines, five by surface ASW and 14 by LBA at sea. [/align]5 resp. 14 does not sound much for all my efforts - currently I have 870+ (!) level bombers and 180+ dive bombers plus virtually all floatplanes on ASW duty. Experience range from 92 to 57, with a large majority of groups above 75. And I hunt subs spotted near the coast of Japan with eight hunter-killer groups of ususally 2 DDs and 3 PGs/PCs. [/align] [/align]Latest search results - numerous spottings, six attacks, one hit:[/align] [/align]
[font=arial]OPERATIONAL REPORT FOR 06/01/43[/font]
[font=arial] [/font]
[font=arial]Ki-48-I Lily reports shadow in water at 22, 43[/font]
[font=arial]Ki-49 Helen reports suspected submarine at 57, 40[/font]
[font=arial]Ki-49 Helen reports suspected submarine at 61, 45[/font]
[font=arial]Ki-49 Helen attacking Snook at 61,45[/font][/b]
[font=arial]Ki-49 Helen reports periscope at 61, 45[/font]
[font=arial]Ki-49 Helen reports suspected submarine at 63, 45[/font]
[font=arial]Ki-48-II Lily reports suspected submarine at 63, 45[/font]
[font=arial]Ki-48-II Lily reports periscope at 61, 45[/font]
[font=arial]Ki-48-II Lily reports shadow in water at 61, 45[/font]
[font=arial]G4M2 Betty reports shadow in water at 65, 79[/font]
[font=arial]G4M2 Betty reports shadow in water at 60, 78[/font]
[font=arial]G4M2 Betty reports shadow in water at 65, 81[/font]
[font=arial]G4M2 Betty reports radio transmissions at 65, 79[/font]
[font=arial]G4M2 Betty reports suspected submarine at 60, 78[/font]
[font=arial]H8K Emily reports periscope at 60, 78[/font]
[font=arial]H8K Emily reports periscope at 61, 82[/font]
[font=arial]H8K Emily reports shadow in water at 63, 78[/font]
[font=arial]G4M2 Betty reports shadow in water at 65, 81[/font]
[font=arial]G4M2 Betty reports suspected submarine at 64, 82[/font]
[font=arial]G4M2 Betty reports shadow in water at 63, 78[/font]
[font=arial]G4M2 Betty reports periscope at 65, 81[/font]
[font=arial]G4M2 Betty reports suspected submarine at 65, 79[/font]
[font=arial]G4M2 Betty reports periscope at 69, 76[/font]
[font=arial]G4M2 Betty reports suspected submarine at 64, 82[/font]
[font=arial]G4M2 Betty reports periscope at 63, 78[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports suspected submarine at 65, 79[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports shadow in water at 65, 81[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports shadow in water at 65, 79[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports shadow in water at 63, 45[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports periscope at 61, 45[/font]
[font=arial]B5N2 Kate reports shadow in water at 70, 35[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports shadow in water at 63, 45[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports shadow in water at 58, 45[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports diving submarine at 63, 45[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports diving submarine at 61, 45[/font]
[font=arial]D4Y Judy attacking[/b] Haddock at 65,79[/font]
[font=arial]Haddock is reported HIT[/b][/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports suspected submarine at 63, 45[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports shadow in water at 61, 45[/font]
[font=arial]H8K Emily reports shadow in water at 65, 81[/font]
[font=arial]H8K Emily reports shadow in water at 60, 81[/font]
[font=arial]H8K Emily reports shadow in water at 63, 82[/font]
[font=arial]H8K Emily reports periscope at 60, 78[/font]
[font=arial]H8K Emily reports suspected submarine at 62, 81[/font]
[font=arial]H8K Emily reports periscope at 64, 82[/font]
[font=arial]H8K Emily reports suspected submarine at 63, 78[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports suspected submarine at 63, 45[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports shadow in water at 22, 43[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports diving submarine at 20, 40[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports suspected submarine at 60, 78[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports shadow in water at 57, 74[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports suspected submarine at 58, 45[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports suspected submarine at 58, 45[/font]
[font=arial]Ki-49 Helen reports periscope at 58, 45[/font]
[font=arial]G3M Nell attacking[/b] Haddock at 65,79[/font]
[font=arial]G3M Nell reports shadow in water at 60, 78[/font]
[font=arial]G3M Nell reports suspected submarine at 69, 76[/font]
[font=arial]G3M Nell reports periscope at 64, 82[/font]
[font=arial]G3M Nell reports periscope at 63, 78[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports shadow in water at 63, 45[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports periscope at 61, 45[/font]
[font=arial]Ki-49 Helen reports periscope at 57, 45[/font]
[font=arial]Ki-49 Helen reports suspected submarine at 58, 45[/font]
[font=arial]Ki-49 Helen reports shadow in water at 61, 45[/font]
[font=arial]Ki-48-II Lily reports periscope at 63, 45[/font]
[font=arial]Ki-48-II Lily reports shadow in water at 61, 45[/font]
[font=arial]Ki-32 Mary reports shadow in water at 58, 45[/font]
[font=arial]Ki-49 Helen attacking[/b] Tunny at 63,45[/font]
[font=arial]Ki-49 Helen reports shadow in water at 61, 45[/font]
[font=arial]Ki-48-II Lily reports shadow in water at 58, 45[/font]
[font=arial]Ki-49 Helen reports suspected submarine at 58, 45[/font]
[font=arial]Ki-49 Helen reports suspected submarine at 61, 45[/font]
[font=arial]Ki-48-II Lily reports diving submarine at 63, 45[/font]
[font=arial]Ki-48-II Lily reports periscope at 63, 45[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports shadow in water at 65, 79[/font]
[font=arial]G4M2 Betty reports suspected submarine at 65, 81[/font]
[font=arial]G4M2 Betty reports periscope at 65, 79[/font]
[font=arial]G4M2 Betty reports suspected submarine at 60, 81[/font]
[font=arial]G4M2 Betty reports periscope at 62, 81[/font]
[font=arial]G4M2 Betty reports shadow in water at 64, 82[/font]
[font=arial]G4M2 Betty reports suspected submarine at 63, 78[/font]
[font=arial]G4M2 Betty reports shadow in water at 65, 81[/font]
[font=arial]G4M2 Betty reports shadow in water at 60, 81[/font]
[font=arial]G4M2 Betty reports shadow in water at 60, 78[/font]
[font=arial]G4M2 Betty reports periscope at 64, 82[/font]
[font=arial]G4M2 Betty reports shadow in water at 63, 78[/font]
[font=arial]H8K Emily reports periscope at 65, 81[/font]
[font=arial]H8K Emily reports shadow in water at 60, 78[/font]
[font=arial]H8K Emily reports shadow in water at 64, 82[/font]
[font=arial]H8K Emily reports shadow in water at 63, 78[/font]
[font=arial]G4M2 Betty reports diving submarine at 65, 81[/font]
[font=arial]G4M2 Betty reports shadow in water at 65, 79[/font]
[font=arial]G4M2 Betty reports diving submarine at 60, 81[/font]
[font=arial]G4M2 Betty reports shadow in water at 60, 78[/font]
[font=arial]G4M2 Betty reports suspected submarine at 59, 80[/font]
[font=arial]G4M2 Betty reports suspected submarine at 62, 81[/font]
[font=arial]G4M2 Betty reports periscope at 64, 82[/font]
[font=arial]G4M2 Betty reports periscope at 65, 81[/font]
[font=arial]G4M2 Betty reports shadow in water at 65, 79[/font]
[font=arial]G4M2 Betty reports suspected submarine at 60, 78[/font]
[font=arial]G4M2 Betty reports shadow in water at 59, 80[/font]
[font=arial]G4M2 Betty reports shadow in water at 62, 81[/font]
[font=arial]G4M2 Betty reports shadow in water at 63, 83[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports suspected submarine at 65, 81[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports diving submarine at 64, 82[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports shadow in water at 63, 78[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports shadow in water at 69, 76[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports shadow in water at 64, 82[/font]
[font=arial]E7K2 Alf reports shadow in water at 58, 45[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports shadow in water at 76, 36[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports shadow in water at 76, 36[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports periscope at 58, 45[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports diving submarine at 61, 45[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports diving submarine at 63, 45[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports periscope at 61, 45[/font]
[font=arial]D4Y Judy reports shadow in water at 65, 79[/font]
[font=arial]H8K Emily attacking[/b] S-32 at 76,36[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports suspected submarine at 63, 45[/font]
[font=arial]H8K Emily reports shadow in water at 65, 81[/font]
[font=arial]H8K Emily reports diving submarine at 65, 79[/font]
[font=arial]H8K Emily reports periscope at 63, 82[/font]
[font=arial]H8K Emily reports shadow in water at 69, 76[/font]
[font=arial]H8K Emily reports shadow in water at 62, 81[/font]
[font=arial]H8K Emily reports shadow in water at 63, 83[/font]
[font=arial]D4Y Judy reports periscope at 60, 81[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports diving submarine at 22, 43[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports shadow in water at 19, 41[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake attacking[/b] KXII at 19,41[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports shadow in water at 65, 79[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports shadow in water at 58, 76[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports radio transmissions at 63, 78[/font]
[font=arial]F1M2 Pete reports periscope at 57, 74[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports shadow in water at 58, 45[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports shadow in water at 61, 45[/font]
[font=arial]Ki-49 Helen reports shadow in water at 57, 45[/font]
[font=arial]G3M Nell reports suspected submarine at 65, 81[/font]
[font=arial]G3M Nell reports shadow in water at 65, 79[/font]
[font=arial]G3M Nell reports shadow in water at 60, 81[/font]
[font=arial]G3M Nell reports suspected submarine at 63, 82[/font]
[font=arial]G3M Nell reports shadow in water at 69, 76[/font]
[font=arial]G3M Nell reports shadow in water at 62, 81[/font]
[font=arial]G3M Nell reports diving submarine at 64, 82[/font]
[font=arial]G3M Nell reports shadow in water at 63, 78[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports periscope at 63, 45[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports suspected submarine at 63, 45[/font]
[font=arial]E13A1 Jake reports shadow in water at 61, 45[/font][/align]

bombers below 75 (better say below 80) mostly "only" spot subs. Bombers above 80 start attacking in bigger numbers hitting with every second attack. I wouldn´t be afraid of 1000 Helens/Sallies if the average exp is 70-75. I AM AFRAID of 400-500 Helens/Sallies that are above 80 exp. Those are the killers I´m talking about.

[LargeSlowTarget]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

Probably [:)]. For me, six attacks and one hit during a typical turn and 14 subs sunk in 18 months of war by a massive LBA effort just do not qualify as 'carnage' by 'smart bombs' throughout a 'dead zone'. As Japanese player, I'm used to other standards - I would describe Allied ASW as lethal...     [/align] [/align] [/align]

If you have one hit every turn then this will mean 365 damaged subs from 10 sys to "sunk" and not a single operational sub left. I would certainly call that lethal...

Sorry, wrong choice of words. My planes don't get a hit every day, otherwise I should have sunk more than 14 subs in 18 months, obviously. This is a 'typical' result of a day with a successful attack, compared to the 'multiple hits' AdmSpruance is suffering.

ORIGINAL: castor troy
bombers below 75 (better say below 80) mostly "only" spot subs. Bombers above 80 start attacking in bigger numbers hitting with every second attack. I wouldn´t be afraid of 1000 Helens/Sallies if the average exp is 70-75. I AM AFRAID of 400-500 Helens/Sallies that are above 80 exp. Those are the killers I´m talking about.

So only pilots with exp above 80 do realize that they should attack when spotting something [&:]

[rockmedic109]

At least we are not inundated with reports of false bombings and reports of sinking a sub that was never within 500 miles of the bombing site.  That would be a good FOW!

[racndoc]

Alright LargeSlowTarget...


In 18 months of war Ive lost 40 subs......30 of these to AP bombs from aircraft with probably another 100 subs that were severely damaged but made it back to port from AP bombs.

Most of these AP bomb hits occurred while the subs were in "transit" while trying to force the Malay Barrier. If you read the roster of sunken ships there is a veritable graveyard of subs sunk by AP bombs in the Straits of Malacca between Malaya and Sumatra, near Teloekbetoeng and Merak in the straits between Java and Sumatra, the straits near Bali and Lombok and even Broome and Membora at the entrance to the Timor Sea. Most of this carnage occurred in 1942 as after a 2 week period where 9 of 10 subs were hit by AP bombs while trying to force the Malay Barrier I gave up and redeployed ALL the British and Dutch subs from India/Ceylon to the east coast of Australia. Here they could actually penetrate to the western and central Pacific ocean through the less heavily patrolled Solomon and Bismark Seas but I still lost a few subs to AP bombs near Green Island and Rabaul.

But all the entrances to the SRA through the Malay Barrier were completely closed by IJN and IJA aircraft.

My opponent acknowleged that this was bogus as far as the results and voluntarily agreed to reduce the % of IJA AC on search and ASW and also to fly the search and ASW at higher altitudes.

Now I can actiually transit through the SRA with moderate casualties but I still dont dare to place any subs on patrol.

[LargeSlowTarget]

So your subs got nailed in the straits and island passages, that is in confined areas, coastal hexes and probably shallow waters. My opponent does not send his subs into such dangerous waters, he keeps them in deep ocean hexes. That probably explains the difference in the sub losses by LBA.[/align] [/align]Question for the experts: does ASW and naval search cover only the water hexes within the search area, or do the game mechanics not distinguish between land and water and fly ASW and naval search over land masses as well? In the former case, the density of the air coverage would be much higher when flying from a base with land masses around (e.g. Singapore) than flying from an island surrounded by nothing but water (e.g. Truk).  [/align]

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

So your subs got nailed in the straits and island passages, that is in confined areas, coastal hexes and probably shallow waters. My opponent does not send his subs into such dangerous waters, he keeps them in deep ocean hexes. That probably explains the difference in the sub losses by LBA.[/align] [/align]Question for the experts: does ASW and naval search cover only the water hexes within the search area, or do the game mechanics not distinguish between land and water and fly ASW and naval search over land masses as well? In the former case, the density of the air coverage would be much higher when flying from a base with land masses around (e.g. Singapore) than flying from an island surrounded by nothing but water (e.g. Truk).  [/align]

The game runs every squadron into every hex within range. It doesn't model sweep rate or barrier search (standard topics in naval OR courses) at all.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

Probably [:)]. For me, six attacks and one hit during a typical turn and 14 subs sunk in 18 months of war by a massive LBA effort just do not qualify as 'carnage' by 'smart bombs' throughout a 'dead zone'. As Japanese player, I'm used to other standards - I would describe Allied ASW as lethal...     [/align] [/align] [/align]

If you have one hit every turn then this will mean 365 damaged subs from 10 sys to "sunk" and not a single operational sub left. I would certainly call that lethal...

Sorry, wrong choice of words. My planes don't get a hit every day, otherwise I should have sunk more than 14 subs in 18 months, obviously. This is a 'typical' result of a day with a successful attack, compared to the 'multiple hits' AdmSpruance is suffering.

ORIGINAL: castor troy
bombers below 75 (better say below 80) mostly "only" spot subs. Bombers above 80 start attacking in bigger numbers hitting with every second attack. I wouldn´t be afraid of 1000 Helens/Sallies if the average exp is 70-75. I AM AFRAID of 400-500 Helens/Sallies that are above 80 exp. Those are the killers I´m talking about.

So only pilots with exp above 80 do realize that they should attack when spotting something [&:]

only when you see the message "bomber xy attacks sub" you can achieve a hit. You never get hits from the "bomber xy spots sub, shadow...."

[LargeSlowTarget]

Please - how stupid do you think I am? Of course I know that only actual attacks may yield hits. My remark was meant ironic! Even rookie pilots should realize that they are flying ASW not just for sightseeing but to attack any subs they have spotted - the rookies would just not be successful most of the time due to their lack of exp. So IMO there should be some 'bomber xy spots and attacks sub but misses' messages to give it the 'right feel'. Of course this is purely eye candy (and psychology). [/align]And just to make it clear - I am not asking for more efficient Japanese ASW, I am just against reducing Japanese ASW lethality even more, because the perceived lethality seems to be the result of bad player choices rather than alleged unbalanced game mechanics. [/align]

[Speedysteve]

ORIGINAL: castor troy
No Allied PBEM player (not even Speedy [:D]) would achieve this against me.

Pfft[:'(]