Best way to Kill PT Boats?

[niceguy2005]

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

The small caliber weapon damage subroutines are all screwed up in this game. I've sunk AK's using only the AA suite on a surfaced submarine (40mm and 20mm hits, no deck gun or torpedoes), and seen PT boats maul much bigger ships with their guns too. Not seen as much damage from strafing planes vs ships but that's because I don't have them do that very often.

0.50 caliber machine guns shouldn't be disabling destroyer main gun turrets and creating floatation damage on any ship larger than a minesweeper, though. For that matter, neither should 20mm or 40mm hits.

I've never seen this. I guess I should insert the caveat that I have rarely played past 6/43, so maybe the PTs are modified in some way that extends their abilities. I can honestly say I have never, ever seen a PT boat sink an undamaged AK/AP/TK (or DD for that matter) with only small caliber guns. I have seen them hit them and cause some damage. For a sanity check it usually takes more than 1 torp to sink an AK.

Note, it could be possible for a PT or AK to sink some AKs in mods with guns. Some of those AKs are just wooden yachts.

Edit: I will again assert that the vast majority of witp PT engagements could be summarized by 6 PTs meet any surface group numbering more than 1 or 2 ships; 2 PTs sunk without firing a shot; task forces disengage.

[John Lansford]

I've had PT boats shoot up AK's but not sink them with gunfire alone, but I have seen a sub do it without using either the deck gun or torpedoes.  Apparently the AK was carrying fuel, because one of the hits generated the "fuel cargo burning" notice and it sank afterwards.

[niceguy2005]

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

I've had PT boats shoot up AK's but not sink them with gunfire alone, but I have seen a sub do it without using either the deck gun or torpedoes. Apparently the AK was carrying fuel, because one of the hits generated the "fuel cargo burning" notice and it sank afterwards.

This IS one of the real a-historical things I see happening. While it seems within the realm of possibility that a stray 50 cal bullet could ignite fuel, the likely hood would be a one in a million shot. Obviously the game favors that outcome way too much. My experience with fire damage is that it is never enough to sink a ship alone.

[Q-Ball]

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

Folks, dealing with PTs isnt THAT hard.  The way you kill PT boats is with destoryers....period. 

I have to agree with previous posters: Using DD's is not advised. I have experienced what Castor said, about 1 DD for every 5-6 PTs, which is not good math for the Empire. I have seen 20mm hits too, not a ton, but enough to put a couple DDs in the shop for awhile.

FB's are the best way, though that doesn't work either if the Allies have fighter cover.

My biggest gripe on PT's is the ability to refuel from Subs or transports. That ability allows them to patrol off IJN bases without trips back to refuel, very annoying.

[Coach Z]

Unfortuantely its August 1942 and Japan has no FB in my current game.
My ANNS @ 100 ft actually hit them last turn and sunk 1.

[Q-Ball]

ORIGINAL: Coach Z

Unfortuantely its August 1942 and Japan has no FB in my current game.
My ANNS @ 100 ft actually hit them last turn and sunk 1.

You should get some Nick FB's pretty soon, and PT busting is about all they're really good at. If your opponent can get some CAP up though, look out, your Anns and Nicks will all hit the water.

[niceguy2005]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

Folks, dealing with PTs isnt THAT hard. The way you kill PT boats is with destoryers....period.

I have to agree with previous posters: Using DD's is not advised. I have experienced what Castor said, about 1 DD for every 5-6 PTs, which is not good math for the Empire. I have seen 20mm hits too, not a ton, but enough to put a couple DDs in the shop for awhile.

FB's are the best way, though that doesn't work either if the Allies have fighter cover.

My biggest gripe on PT's is the ability to refuel from Subs or transports. That ability allows them to patrol off IJN bases without trips back to refuel, very annoying.

It sounds like the problem is that you're opponent is playing a lunacy game....

PT's refueling from subs. [8|]

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

Destroyers were originally named "torpedo boat destroyers". They were bigger, faster, had more and larger guns than the smaller torpedo boats, which had little more than some rapid fire guns and torpedoes.

Sort of like PT boats, in fact. I agree that sending a TF of 2-4 DD's would do a number on even a large group of PT's, just as they did IRL.

no, surely not like they did IRL. In the game (not just in my games, but in most of the AARs I´ve been reading too) you will lose one DD for 5 PTs sunk, another DD heavily damaged from cal .50 and 20mm Oerlikon fire. Of course there were not nearly as many encounters between PTs and DDs IRL like there are in the game.

I have never seen this personally. I have seen a posting of it once. It's my belief that it is an extreme case. Most PTs are sunk without ever firing a shot. I rarely see Japanese DDs go down due to PT torpedos. If I was an IJ player I would worry a lot more about the DD TF still being under allied air space during the daylight phase than I ever would that a PT was going to sink one.

Also odds matter. If you send in 2 DDs to attack 6 PTs you're asking to get one sunk. As you can imagine IRL PTs might well overwhelm the guns of a DD if they surge at once, so too can it happen in the game. To take on 6 PTs I would want 4+ DDs and if you're not worried about allied air daylight encounters are preferable.

Of course surprise matters as well, so recon, recon, recon. Raise the detection level of the PT group and reduce the chance of getting your DDs surprised.

amazing that you´ve seen that only once, it happens all the time, mentioned in many AARs. [&:]

[laien607]

PT is the nightmare of the beginner!

[jeffs]

But in real life, there were lucky hits. One of the first Japanese DDs sunk (IRL) was nailed at Wake when
an F4-3 strafed it. Apparently the pilot put some bullets into the depth charges and they went boom..
 
Bye, bye DD.

[John Lansford]

Yeah, and how many other times during the war did anyone's DD get sunk by a depth charge blowing up from being strafed?  I'd say that's a prime example of a rare occurrance.
 
For that matter, the concerns over oxygen fueled torpedoes was why no one but the IJN tried them, but other than in the Leyte Gulf battle AFAIK no IJN ship had them blow up on board from enemy attack.
 
DD's vs PT's, where both sides knew where the other was, tended to end up badly for the PT boats.  The PT's worked best from ambush, not high speed, noisy gun and torpedo fights.

[spence]

Yeah, and how many other times during the war did anyone's DD get sunk by a depth charge blowing up from being strafed? I'd say that's a prime example of a rare occurrance.

For that matter, the concerns over oxygen fueled torpedoes was why no one but the IJN tried them, but other than in the Leyte Gulf battle AFAIK no IJN ship had them blow up on board from enemy attack.

DD's vs PT's, where both sides knew where the other was, tended to end up badly for the PT boats. The PT's worked best from ambush, not high speed, noisy gun and torpedo fights.

I think the F4F actually put a 100 lber into the DCs on that DD (Kisaragi?). But there is quite a bit of gun camera footage showing Japanese ships of varies types and sizes blowing up during a strafing attack.

As far as the torpedos are concerned the danger was very real and cost the Japanese dearly over the course of the war. Read the TROMs for IJN cruisers at Combined Fleet. IIRC Mikuma, Suzuya, Chokai, and Kinugasa may be listed amongst those ships which suffered devastating explosions of their own torpedos along with several light cruisers. A near miss by a 5" shell was enough to touch off the torpedos on one of the cruisers at Leyte Gulf.

Somebody else made the comment that "they'd never seen a ship sink because of fires". For real sailors a fire at sea is not something that goes out after a little bit posing little threat to the ship and crew. There's lots of water handy to fight a fire but it remains one of the deadliest perils of the sea even without somebody doing all they can to start, maintain and supplement the fires.

The real IJN was really no better at sinking PTs than the PTs were at sinking IJN DDs. So apparently the IJN only rarely knew where the PTs were (unlike the game). The threat posed by PTs caused a couple of "mission kills" off Guadalcanal: supply runs where the supply canisters were thrown haphazardly into the sea while the DDs took off and a completely ineffective bombardment by CAs on 13/14 November 42.

[John Lansford]

I thought Mikuma was sunk because fire from a bomb hit came down the engine room air intakes and killed everyone in the compartments.  I think it was Chokai that was sunk at Leyte Gulf from a Long Lance explosion onboard, but thought it was an HE bomb from a carrier plane that set them off.

[spence]

"Shattered Sword" describes and contrasts the attacks on Mogami and Mikuma in considerable detail. The DCA on Mogami ordered the torpedos jettisoned when a bomb hit started a fire midships (a move which somewhat contradicted IJN doctrine since it decreased the offensive potential of the ship) while the DCA on Mikuma tried to fight a very similarly located fire without jettisoning the torpedos and failed. IIRC the explosion you refer to was not a bomb hit but the explosion of the torpedos.

Both Chokai and Suzuya suffered from friendly and fatal torpedo damage at Leyte Gulf.