World War III players

[Grymme]

Turn sent to mavn

[mavnb]

had pc problems. working on it now. BTW, it is mavnb.

[mavnb]

same message here...unable to find the file C:/Matrix games/Advanced and lots of pictures thing. possible to get the rigth file at mavnb@hotmail.com?

[mavnb]

ok need help here. What are the minor that usa can play?
Will do the turn the 19th of August estern time. sorry for delay.
after that it will be mcuh faster.

[Grymme]

Hi MavnB

No problems. Did you fix the picture error? I think it fixed itself for the others after downloading last version from scenariobank (and possibly downloading latest version of WAW).

You can look around the map to see which countries you control. From the start i think USA controls. Canada, Panama, Portugal, The netherlands, Island, Greek Cuprys, a base in Britain. Somalia, Sudan, Afghanistan, Diego Garcia, Thailand, Malaysia, Singapore, Australia, Taiwan, South Corea, Japan.

At turn 2 Israel joins the USA. The USA doesnt have options to get more minors to join them. Their special actioncards alow them to deploy Stealth bombers and Mujaheddin.

You should look out for the following though. China has the option of attacking Burma, which makes them join USA. Also they can attack Pacific countries which makes them join NATO. On turn 2 the arab countries join USSR. On turn 3 North corea joins China which opens up a land front there. These events should come with messages.

You should also try to help NATO as they might have a hard time in Europe.

Good luck.

[GrumpyMel]

NATO Turn 2 done and sent to Warsaw Pact.
 
 
Some highlights of the turn:
 
- British SAS commandos destroy bridges in eastern Europe.
 
- South African forces conduct more air strikes again Nambian border forces.
 
- Turkish forces engage Pact blocking infantry formations and inflict heavy damage, they push forward to the outskirts of Bucharest.
 
- Nato 2nd Army holds Vienna and destroys an advancing Pact armored formation.
 
- NATO 3rd Army forces bombard Prague but fail to take the city in a heavy assault and both sides suffer significant casualties.
 
- NATO 1st Army recaptures Berlin and crushes several Pact armored formations in the process.

Total Losses for Turn = 61 Rifle
                         4 SMG
                         9 Scouts
                        30 Special Forces Infantry
                         1 Engineer
                         1 AT Infantry
                         5 Machinegun
                         2 Light Tank
                         1 Medium Tank
                         1 Tactical Bomber
 

Total Kills = 177 Rifle
               10 SMG
               16 Scouts
                1 Paratrooper
               13 Machinegun
               14 AT Infantry
               24 Mortars
                1 Engineer
                4 Artillery
                9 Light Tank
                5 Medium Tanks
               17 Trucks

[Grymme]

Anyone know where the game at?

[Herode_2]

The file is here. I lacked time to play these last days, sorry for the delay. I'll forward the file tomorrow

[Herode_2]

Turn sent [:)]

Some notes about the few I can tell on balance. To say it short : I confirm GrumpyMel's stats. I confess I expected more power for Varsaw Pact. Presently, with NATO attacking at turn 1 and gaining the initiative, Soviets endure heavy losses & I don't see how I could do anything else but defense. Due to the local numeric advantage of NATO after his turn 1, Budapest and Prague will be very difficult - to say the least - to defend and to keep. Not mentionning the special operations destroying bridges and breaking soviets lines on the rear... Also note that initial Artillerie range 1 makes it almots useless in defense, as it will be destroyed if forced to retreat, which is likely to happen.
   
If this is the expected balance, that's OK for me. But after your comments, I thought you expected more offensive posture from Varsaw Pact and some difficulties for NATO. We'll see how things go on next turns but I expect the exact opposite on the beginning of the game : offensive for NATO and hard times for Soviets (except on the Finnish front, BTW).

[Grymme]

Herode2: Good points. Actually i dont really know whats the best way to handle the scenario. I also was thinking that the Warsaw Pact would have power to act more agressivly (most fictional WWIII scenarios does this). I did try to design the forces in that way (at least a little). The problem is that i couldnt really let the USSR start since it would then be the opposite around (USSR would kill of NATO).
 
 
I agree and thought the casualty list was really high for the first turn for the warsaw pact. On the other hand i think that the pure strenght balance (i think you lost some 300 INF on T1) still favoured USSR. I dont have the figures here (i am at work) but i think its something like 4500 USSR INF against 2500 NATO inf. But it may not be the same with armour and some 'USSR forces are tied up on other fronts.
 
Possibly USSR needs a little boost. I still think that you should be ok over the long run since USSR really outproduces NATO.
 
About the artillery. Hmm.. i basicly used the stats from WAW. Are you thinking 2 range for normal art and 3 for long range.  i am open to suggestions.
 
My most important goal with the scenario is that neither side should wint within 10 turns of the game. That would basicly kill it.
 
I have made a little changes on the scenario since our game adding more production to replace the high losses. This doesnt really change the aggression balance though.
 
So i am completely open to changing the force strenghts. I think that the ideal would be that USSR are a little agressive initially capturing Berling and meeting up with the US in netherlands. And then it would be an even battle from there.  Its not very many hexes to play with thóugh.
 
 
 
 

[Grymme]

Its fun that the sabotage action was tough for you though. It really adds flavor i think. It was thought to inhibit a USSR invasion though.
 
At least its a one time event so you dont have to worry about it more.

[GrumpyMel]

I've started a solo game where i am playing all sides, just to get a better feel for each sides the situation... and I can't say that I'm really noticing any shortage of troops as the USSR. NATO getting the initiative allows them a good chance at a first strike to kill off some exposed Pact formations and open the road to Berlin. It allows them a local advantage (actualy closer to parity) in Central Europe for a few turns at the very start.

I think if they don't take advantadge of this , they are pretty much toast. The Pact has a significant numerical and production advantage, that can grind away at NATO. The Pact does have more territory to defend.... and a fair number of thier troops are positioned away from the front.... which is what allows NATO to grab a little local advantage at start.

NATO doesn't have the luxury of a vast hinterland with fairly well protected production centers like the PACT. So if they get pushed back much in the beggining, it's going to go very quickly downhill from there.

From looking at things, it strikes me that the default strategy for the western powers would be for NATO to be aggressive in the beggining, in order to buy some time for the U.S. to position itself to help out somewhere. If it doesn't do this... I think it's going to get into trouble real quick.

It's a very cool scenerio.... has to be well played by NATO I think...as there is not alot of margin for error. Anyway... it'll be interesting to see how it goes a few more turns into the game.

[Grymme]

In any case its a very interesting discussion. Here are some figures on strenght to take in to the discussion.


NATO USA TOTAL

INF 2 328 2 484 4812
TRK 104 77 181
ART 45 50 95
ARM 46 55 101
SHP 33 85 118
SUB 7 10 17
FGT 48 94 142
BMB 38 60 98


USSR PDRC TOTAL

INF 4 545 1 243 5788
TRK 222 35 257
ART 106 26 132
ARM 101 17 118
SHP 37 24 61
SUB 31 4 35
FGT 61 26 87
BMB 60 20 80

DIFFERENCE

INF NATO & US -966
TRK NATO -76
ART NATÓ -37
ARM NATO -17
SHP NATO +57
SUB NATO -18
FGT NATO +55
BMB NATO +18

[Grymme]

I made a really thourough count of the USSR forces commited in Africa, Vietnam, Cuba, Afghanistan & Vladivostok. However the effin message timed out.
 
In total it was like this though.
 
935 INF
24 TRK
9 ART
15 ARM
15 FGT
16 BMB.
 
Now, realisticly USSR could transfer a little forces from afghan and far east fronts, but not much. So these could possibly be deducted from any USSR/NATO comparison.

[GrumpyMel]

NATO Turn 3 done and sent on to Warsaw Pact.
 
 
Turn #3 Highlights   (P.S. A few turns done the road we should really do an AAR for this)
 
- South African Airforce Strat bombed Nambia to little effect, and lost a strategic bomber to a lucky strike by a Nambian SAM battery
 
- In the Arctic Sea, a Norwegian sub picket spotted and withstood an attack by the Soviet Arctic Fleet. Naval and Air assets were dispacted to intercept and in a brief battle 5 Pact Submarines, 2 Frigates and 1 Destroyer were knocked out at the cost of only 1 freindly submarine.
 
- In Finland, Helsinki is under seige fromsizable Soviet forces and has withstood bombardment by air, land and sea. 
 
- On the Southern Front Turkish forces lost a minor air battle, but managed to capture Sofia after heavy fighting.
 
- In Central Europe Pact forces abandon Prague and 3rd Army walks into the city without resistance.
 
- 2nd Army presses forward, capturing Budepest and knocking out several Pact formations, almost destroying the N.Balkan District HQ in the process.
 
- 1st Army raids across the Elbe striking at Pact formations weakend by air strikes.
 
Total Losses for Turn = 52 Rifle
                         4 Scouts
                         3 Machinegun
                         2 AT Infantry
                         3 Fighter
                         1 Strategic Bomber
                         1 Submarine
 

Total Kills = 96 Rifle
               3 SMG
               8 Scouts
              13 Machineguns
               6 AT Infantry
               5 Mortars
              55 Staff
               2 Flak
               5 Light Tanks
               3 Medium Tanks
               7 Trucks
               5 Submarine
               2 Frigates
               1 DDG Destroyer

[GrumpyMel]

Finaly grand total of casualties as of end of NATO Turn #3
 
           NATO                              Pact
Losses - 333 Rifles                       626 Rifles
           5 Truck                            39 Truck
           3 Fighters                          1 Fighter
           -                                      2 Frigates
           4 Light Tank                     19 Light Tank
           -                                     9 Artillery
          49 SMG                            47 SMG
           1 Engineer                       29 Engineer
           1 AT Gun                          1 AT Gun
           1 Medium Tank                 10 Medium Tank
           1 Submarine                     10 Submarine
           1 Strategic Bomber               -
           -                                      1 Paratrooper
           1 Flak                                3 Flak
          26 Machinegun                   66 Machinegun
          25 Scout                           34 Scout
          11 Mortar                          50 Mortar
          17 AT Infantry                   48 AT Infantry
           3 Staff                            55 Staff
           2 APC                               4 APC
           -                                     1 Destroyer
           1 Tactical Bomber               4 Tactical Bomber
           3 Halftrack                         5 Halftrack
           1 Carrier Air                         -
          40 Special Forces Infantry        -
 

[Herode_2]

Turn sent to China.
Some more notes on the fly. In the following posts, I'll write VP for Varsaw Pact, out of lazziness.

- the 74th corps near Tirana cannot join other VP units : Yugoslavia is neutral hence the unit is forbidden to croos this territory. Other lines of communication are controlled by NATO. This unit is therefore quickly unsupplied, wich makes it useless. Air supply can be granted. If not granted, the Albanian unit is lost. As usual, if it's intentional for the scenario, that's also OK for me. If not, maybe a slow supply flow from Tirana (500PP max) may patch the situation. Same remark for the sSndinist brigade near Managua, except it's much more difficult to air supply it (Cuba has to build transporters and to hope Fascist Yankees won't intercept humanitarian air convoys ^^)
  
- Damascus, Cairo, Addis Abeba are "universal". They should be "arabs".

About arty range, I'm still not sure it is mandatory - although I would like it as VP player - to increase the range. I'll give more thoughts about this for a few turns and give you my humble opinion later.

Right now, the situation is still very difficult for VP in Central Europe, but rather correct, when not (seemingly) favourable, in other strategic blocs.

I'll see in the very next turns if the production power of VP is able to help stoping NATO offensive in Europe. As far as I play it, of course, and I'm just an average, not an elite player [8|]

As for my personal taste, I'd like to see more action cards in this game. Of course, WWIII didn't happened (yet... [:D]). But in the 80's, when it was still for a few people something that may happen, some interesting and essential features were also in place, mainly :
- political "5th columns" in Europe in favour of VP
- heavy spying/sabotaging/propagandist activity for both sides.

Also, it has been suspected later that VP forces were indeed far less powerful than they (and NATO) said. But this point would lead to a weak VP vs. strong NATO scenario really unbalanced. If we forget this last point, the political situation should invite us to use many action cards during the game. Sabotages, propaganda, comitting neutral countries, the threat of Nuke Extermination leading to a general (and radioactive) stale mate, pacifists, the SS20/Pershing crisis, etc. All these events could be modelled via action cards and events. I know it's a lot of job, of course. Just a suggestion  and a personnal wish for the 80's Cold War flavour.

That being said, I'm still having a lot of fun with the VP "as is". [:)]

[Grymme]

fk... timed out a long reply again ;(

Chinas turn in short.

- After the north corean republic decides to join PDRC forces the combined armies smash down on S. corea. After heavy shelling, and bombarding Seul is assaulted and taken. Heavy losses on both sides. 44 INF for PDRC.
- PDRC incites maoist uprising in Burma. Burmese government responds by joining USA. Assault in the country difficult because of horrible terrain though.
- Help granted to USSR. 2000 supply and 20 PP should arrive. Can you check this Herode2?
- US fleet is spotted passing the Singapore straight.
- Some fighting over Taiwan.


______________________

General comments

- Will change Damascus and Cairo. Addis Adeba might be some other people. Sudanese or Ethiopian (dont remember, although sudan is largely inhabited by arabs).
- Sandinists and Albanians dont have supply. Basicly they are to small to warrant whole supply and HQ chain. USA has some of these hard to supply units also. As for the albanians i was thinking that they would possibly link up to USSR if their offensive. But i do think that it is atleast semirealistic that they lose strenght. Will think about it though.
- Might agree with you about arty. Maybe less realistic, but more fun. What do other people think?
- We could mess a little with balance after testgame is finished. If it seems unbalanced USSR could get small boost since 900 INF commited on other fronts. But well wait and see.

- Regarding events, actioncards etc. I totally agree with you. More events= more fun. Any concrete help with suggestions and help with coding is very much welcomed. It is a lot of work though. As it is there is almost 30 actioncard events now and they probably amount to several hundred lines of code. Divided between 4 nations they dont seem so many though.

Propaganda&Sabotage could probably be implemented with small readiness loss events. The bridge sabotage event was a pain to write

Any more suggestions?

Some questions?

-What is happening in Cuba?
- Have you tried out the soviet special unit? I think paras can be landed in cities in this scenario '

Glad that you are having fun

[mavnb]

I received the turn for ussr but I can't open. where do I need to send
it?

[Grymme]

Sorry. Turn was for you. Will resend later tonight.