LBA problem

[pompack]

ORIGINAL: Mynok


Bottom line: it isn't a science.

What kind of bombers are these BTW?

B17C, B17E and LB30

Also on the 13th turn (just completed) they did attack, losing two B17

As I say, go figure

[cato13]

my bombers are A-20 hudsons.   can someone please explain why such a stupid rule is in a otherwise realistic game such as witp? 
 
1 - for a start, if bombers are tied to the range of fighters, an easy exploit is for players to leave TF's just outside the range of fighters (4 hexes) cos they know that bombers wont launch! ridiculous.
 
2 - if this escort rule stands, then how come jap torpedo bombers can routinely sortie from rabual down to guadalcanal without any escorts?
 
in a game thats all about control this rule dont make any sense.
 
so how am i supposed to resolve my noumea situation, have more fighters?  oh wait, my fighters range is only 3 hexes so i screwed!  and why are torpedo and dive bombers exempt from this rule?
 
has anyone else flipped their lid about this daft escort rule?  cos for me its on the verge of spoiling a very good pbem game.[:(]

[pompack]

ORIGINAL: tonedog

my bombers are A-20 hudsons.   can someone please explain why such a stupid rule is in a otherwise realistic game such as witp? 

1 - for a start, if bombers are tied to the range of fighters, an easy exploit is for players to leave TF's just outside the range of fighters (4 hexes) cos they know that bombers wont launch! ridiculous.

2 - if this escort rule stands, then how come jap torpedo bombers can routinely sortie from rabual down to guadalcanal without any escorts?

in a game thats all about control this rule dont make any sense.

so how am i supposed to resolve my noumea situation, have more fighters?  oh wait, my fighters range is only 3 hexes so i screwed!  and why are torpedo and dive bombers exempt from this rule?

has anyone else flipped their lid about this daft escort rule?  cos for me its on the verge of spoiling a very good pbem game.[:(]

Well Tonedog, as I implied in my earlier post, I am actually upset that it does not enforce this rule more stringently and uniformly. I don't want my bombers making suicidal attacks against well defended TFs, I want them to attack undefended convoys instead of wasting my few and feeble air groups on hopeless attacks. Also, as I noted, when I ask it to attack a named base it usually will even if there is a large CAP thus providing your Schweinfurt type attacks when desired.

Bottom line: Some people hate the rule, some love it, some don't care. Typical WitP [:)]

[cato13]

so basically my bombers are tied to the range of my fighters?  and why are jap torpedo bombers and other such planes not included in this rule then?
 
does anything else factor into it?  does experience count? 

[morganbj]

Check and see if a Betty Grable movie is the current rotation at the airbase.  Those flyboys never missed an opportunity to see those legs.

[cato13]

i just looked at a combat report from earlier on in the game where my opponent launched 12 betty's unescorted from rabaul against my carrier TF near guadalcanal which had over 70 planes on CAP. 

yet my planes wont fly 4 hexes under similar circumstances.  i think consistency is the key word here.  im assumin from the above example some planes are exempt from this escort rule.   even though ive had witp since release ive only really got into it over the last few months so id really appreciate other peoples knowledge on this.

1 - are bombers tied to the range of fighters?

2 - if bombers need to be escorted, how r u supposed to know how many fighters are required if u dont know how strong the CAP is?

3 - what bombers are exempt from this rule?

4 - the whole point of capturing/holding air bases was to dominate the the surrounding area (100's of miles).  if allied bombers in witp can only fly against targets with CAP from 3 hexes then whats the point in having airbases?

thanks in advance.[:)]

[Mynok]

in a game thats all about control this rule dont make any sense.

I discovered your problem. You have a gross misconception of what this game is about. It is not about control in any way, shape or form. It is about herding cats.

[;)]

Let me add also, since I just saw your most recent: naval attack is NOT the primary mission of the A-20. Indeed, it is really not very good at it. Betties, on the other hand, are specifically designed for the mission.

[spence]

The problem with LBA not launching to attack a TF is primarily a problem for the Allied Player. IRL and in the game the Japanese seem to routinely launch their LBA regardless of the strength of the CAP.

IMHO it results from a lack of historical data or misunderstanding of such historical data as does exist. IRL the KB did not place itself within range of substantial Allied LBA much.
1) The confusion in the American command following the PH strike resulted no return strikes because the Americans concentrated their searches in the wrong places so they never found KB. Thus any return strikes (however pathetic they might have been) never happened.
2) KB's next activity was near Rabaul. No major Allied air presence was to be found there and thus KB suppressed whatever was there quite handily and sailed on its merry way.
3) In the DEI in late February 42 the KB doesn't seem to have drawn any attacks but neither did it place itself in a position to intervene with the ABDAFLOT (offensive) sorties that resulted in the battles of Bandoeng Strait or the Battle of the Java Sea. KB did participate in the mop up of Allied shipping South of Java after the Battle of the Java Sea but it seems neither to have effected ABDA Commands naval efforts nor launched substantial strikes on ABDA shore facilities (actually I may just be unaware of any such KB efforts but KBs participation in the campaign seems almost superfluous).
4) When KB next appeared in the Indian Ocean it did draw a counterstrike by Allied LBA (a quite pathetic counterstrike of just 9 Blenheims but an unescorted counterstrike nonetheless in which most of the bombers were shot down). Perhaps the failure of that strike resulted in the British deciding to hold back further strikes but I have not found any information about that.
5) Certainly KB's next foray into the range of Allied LBA at Midway resulted in it drawing quite a few strikes onto itself from the island; all unescorted. At the same time American LBA was attacking the Ryujo and Junyo which were supporting the Aleutians Operation (again without any escort)
6) After Midway Japanese carriers pretty much avoided the effective radius of Allied LBA entirely.

All in all not much historical evidence to support what seems to be a hard-coded Allied "reluctance" to engage the KB with LBA.

[pompack]

ORIGINAL: tonedog

so basically my bombers are tied to the range of my fighters?  and why are jap torpedo bombers and other such planes not included in this rule then?

does anything else factor into it?  does experience count? 

yep, and when you get adequate attack bombers (B25) and good escort fighters (P38), no Japanese ship can live within B25 range

As to why Japanese torpedo planes somethimes attack without escort and get slaughtered, well it's the same problem my B17 have when they go out without escort and attack targets protected by CAP, gets very ugly. I really wish they wouldn't do that [:(]

[Halsey]

ORIGINAL: pompack

ORIGINAL: tonedog

so basically my bombers are tied to the range of my fighters?  and why are jap torpedo bombers and other such planes not included in this rule then?

does anything else factor into it?  does experience count? 

yep, and when you get adequate attack bombers (B25) and good escort fighters (P38), no Japanese ship can live within B25 range

As to why Japanese torpedo planes somethimes attack without escort and get slaughtered, well it's the same problem my B17 have when they go out without escort and attack targets protected by CAP, gets very ugly. I really wish they wouldn't do that [:(]

It should be SOP for players for both sides to do this.
At least until you have air supremacy over a given area.
Fighter range sets the base range for airstrikes.

Those ignoring that do so at their own peril.[:D]

[Nomad]

Don't forget that the Betty units will tend to have high experienced pilots and very aggressive commanders.

[jwilkerson]

So they DO fly and get massacred and get replaced by low experienced guys who won't fly when they shouldn't ... which I think of as the "self correcting process" [:D]

[rockmedic109]

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

So they DO fly and get massacred and get replaced by low experienced guys who won't fly when they shouldn't ... which I think of as the "self correcting process" [:D]

It also qualifies as effective allied strategy.

[Shark7]

I've seen the AI use the 'self-correcting process' far too often. It is simply amazing how the AI completely ignores the escort rule and gets slaughtered repeatedly by an uber-cap.

I think my favorite one was 24 P-39Qs and 84 B-26 Marauders facing KB, Mini-KB, and a tanker group with a cap of 140 Zeke's and Claudes...needless to say, slaughter ensued. In this way, the AI is not only predictable, it is exploitable. After all, if I really need to thin out LBA I can simply send in the KB/Mini-KB death star and draw out a ton of AI aircraft and slaughter them as they make pointless, uncoordinated airstrikes.

[cato13]

so what early to mod war allied bombers are best for naval attacks then?   we're also playin with niks mod which makes CAP a lot less effective so no uber CAP.
 
what planes should i be usin at my most importants bases to increase the chances of strikes be carried out?

[rockmedic109]

I am using the NikMOD CHS version, so there is no such thing as uber-CAP.  There will ALWAYS be leakers.  And 100 Bettys/Nells become their own Death Star. 

Raided Rabaul thinking there was only two carriers there {both lightly damaged}.  The intel on the number of planes at Rabaul was off.  So I sent Lex and Sara on a port raid.  Dang TBFs did not carry torps {Do they carry torps on port attack?}.  And I made a mistake with range, and SBDs only loaded 500lbers.  No attacks on my carriers that day, so I thought I was safe closing the range and attacking the nexxt day.....bad idea.  While I did a lot of damage, 102 Nells and Bettys sent Lex, Sara, 4 cruisers and a Destroyer to the bottom.  Not quite even, but the computer lost Hiryu, Soryu, Ryuho, and a bunch of subs {Shokaku was heavily damaged and Zuikaku was lightly damaged}.

[Yamato hugger]

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

So they DO fly and get massacred and get replaced by low experienced guys who won't fly when they shouldn't ... which I think of as the "self correcting process" [:D]

Or the Jap commander is smarter than that and sets their "max range" to that of their escorts [;)]

[Chris21wen]

ORIGINAL: Mynok


Aggressive leaders help. Passive leaders hurt. Is your morale high or low? They have to pass several morale checks in order to fly.

Units with low moral should take off, they probably will drop there bombs anywhere at the slightest hit of the enemy , but they'd take off or face the military consequences of disobeying an order.