Fuel issue.

[juliet7bravo]

"a significant island, (or 30 mile length of coast) could have numerous possible landing sites."

Then include them, and give the player the option of defending them. The map can certainly be tweaked so that a 30 mile island doesn't perfectly fit into on hex. Any likely candidate for an assault beach in the Pacific very likely already has a little fishing ville already there. Make them so that they're nothing more than a grass hootch (1/1) on the beach, and can't be developed to prevent distorting game play by adding airfields unhistorically. From the UV map, Espiritu Santu (as the cause d'jour) has "bits" in approx. 4 hexes...plenty of room to put in extra "bases" to use as invasion beaches/areas, and then joined by roads to Luganville. ES was heavily built up by the US...roads, camps, arty positions overlooking beaches ect...the whole 9 yards. I repeat, it's either fish or it's fowl, it's either a full bore amphib assault, or it's an overland attack. If it's an amphib assault, then combat over ownership should take place immediately, with the loser being under some serious supply/readiness constraints. It's not "we can safely assume that they're in the Bermuda Triangle" and can't be interdicted until they decide to leisurely hoof over to the enemy base and attack.

The attacker, should not be allowed to land by sea, co-locate in the same hex as the defender, and land massive amounts of supply...whether the defender wants to or not. That makes a seaborne attack nothing more than a land attack...without any land. If the defenders don't want to attack, then the attackers should be forced to upon landing in order to clear a beachhead...that's why they're the "attackers"...they're not just stopping by for a beach party, weinie roast and volleyball tourniment. The key to resisting an amphib assault is to push them back into the sea ASAP, while you're enjoying the benefits of being in supply, and they ain't...initially the AI had plenty of supply, as they were repairing the runway, and flying bombing/fighter missions. It's chosen not too. I suspect the AI is going to be roughly equivalent to PW, with some of the old glitches fixed, and some new ones thrown in.

If the coastal arty are "defending against any landing" within their hex, they are doing a remarkably poor job with a harbor full of unarmored AP's/MCH's parked unloading supplies for weeks (I assume they were knocked out...hopefully). Div. Arty are indirect fire weapons...howitzers. All they need is a spotter with a radio, and ships do not unload supplies 15 miles out to sea. A 105 or 155 will sink (easily) any AP or MCH ever built, as well as DD's and CL's. Even a BB wouldn't be thrilled to death about it.

You're correct, it's 15X suppy at CURRENT op tempo, and the unloading speed was pretty (realistically) slow I think, or at least that's the impression I got...weeks. It's still 1.5 tons of crap per man. There's no supply depot, storage facilities, or way to distribute it

Seems I read somewhere the IJN/IJA cargo handlers (they both had special units w/barges) could unload a 3K ton MCH in roughly 33 hours. 60K tons with plenty of "unskilled help"would take about a month working 24/7. These units could be modeled incidentally, and load/unload speeds in amphibious assaults tied to number and size of the cargo unit LCU's transported in/specialized amphib ships available.

In any case, the game will be out soon HOPEFULLY...and the answers to all these questions will be known. We're both going to buy and play it, and they've already stated that feedback from this is going to roll into WiTP...so we'll have ample opportunity to get our licks in.

[HMSWarspite]

Originally posted by juliet7bravo
"a significant island, (or 30 mile length of coast) could have numerous possible landing sites."

Then include them, and give the player the option of defending them. The map can certainly be tweaked so that a 30 mile island doesn't perfectly fit into on hex. Any likely candidate for an assault beach in the Pacific very likely already has a little fishing ville already there. Make them so that they're nothing more than a grass hootch (1/1) on the beach, and can't be developed to prevent distorting game play by adding airfields unhistorically. From the UV map, Espiritu Santu (as the cause d'jour) has "bits" in approx. 4 hexes...plenty of room to put in extra "bases" to use as invasion beaches/areas, and then joined by roads to Luganville.

You want a base for every beach or possible landing site in the Solomons/NG? - wow!

ES was heavily built up by the US...roads, camps, arty positions overlooking beaches ect...the whole 9 yards.

You sure about that - I think you'll find there is still a lot of inaccessible terrain out there...

I repeat, it's either fish or it's fowl, it's either a full bore amphib assault, or it's an overland attack. If it's an amphib assault, then combat over ownership should take place immediately, with the loser being under some serious supply/readiness constraints. It's not "we can safely assume that they're in the Bermuda Triangle" and can't be interdicted until they decide to leisurely hoof over to the enemy base and attack.

I really don't see what the issue is here. The attack is from the sea. It can come in over a hostile beach, lots of Saving Private Ryan open sequence, large (probably short duration) munitions expendature, etc. Or you can land on the next beach up (allright, 10 miles up the coast), and walk to the enemy. I really think that you are being over restrictive in saying that anywhere you can land has to be a base. We may be discussing nothing - Matrix, can a 'over the beach supplied unit' have its supply 'stockpile' reduced by air/naval attack?

The attacker, should not be allowed to land by sea, co-locate in the same hex as the defender, and land massive amounts of supply...whether the defender wants to or not. That makes a seaborne attack nothing more than a land attack...without any land. If the defenders don't want to attack, then the attackers should be forced to upon landing in order to clear a beachhead...that's why they're the "attackers"...they're not just stopping by for a beach party, weinie roast and volleyball tourniment.

You would suggest then that (to use a different example to the AAR) say 1 battalion of infantry can prevent landings, or at least contest them ANYWHERE ON 30 MILES OF COAST? I think we would have a problem with that. Anyway, do we know the US didn't contest the initial landing. Iain? MAybe the US withdrew when they saw the size of the attack?

The key to resisting an amphib assault is to push them back into the sea ASAP, while you're enjoying the benefits of being in supply, and they ain't...initially the AI had plenty of supply, as they were repairing the runway, and flying bombing/fighter missions. It's chosen not too. I suspect the AI is going to be roughly equivalent to PW, with some of the old glitches fixed, and some new ones thrown in.

Possibly you are right. However we haven't the info to say that for now...

If the coastal arty are "defending against any landing" within their hex, they are doing a remarkably poor job with a harbor full of unarmored AP's/MCH's parked unloading supplies for weeks (I assume they were knocked out...hopefully).

Hey - I am only guessing. There will always be abstractions in a game like this.

Div. Arty are indirect fire weapons...howitzers. All they need is a spotter with a radio, and ships do not unload supplies 15 miles out to sea.

to borrow a phrase DOH!

A 105 or 155 will sink (easily) any AP or MCH ever built, as well as DD's and CL's. Even a BB wouldn't be thrilled to death about it.

Not in dispute. However, 15 miles is an extreme range for land based medium/field art. You need a serious gun to get that far! 105mm are pushed to get 12000m (7.5miles!)US 155Howitser 15000m, US 155Gun M1 23000m (almost 15miles). I don't thing you'll find many guns in L'ville in 1942 with 15miles range (although I may be wrong there). And finally, even if you do have complete batteries of these 15mile range guns of yours, you need to maintain the spotter in LOS. The IJN might want to do something about that. I really think you have to stop thinking of these hexes as a single beach/bay/harbour or whatever.

You're correct, it's 15X suppy at CURRENT op tempo, and the unloading speed was pretty (realistically) slow I think, or at least that's the impression I got...weeks.

So? Pretty realistic then

It's still 1.5 tons of crap per man. There's no supply depot, storage facilities, or way to distribute it

Says who? Again, I think it just boils down to whether you can reduce the supply stock by air/naval interdiction. In fact, over the beach supply ought to lose more from wastage (rot/damp/lostin sea etc) - don't know if that is covered.

snip...

In any case, the game will be out soon HOPEFULLY...and the answers to all these questions will be known. We're both going to buy and play it, and they've already stated that feedback from this is going to roll into WiTP...so we'll have ample opportunity to get our licks in.

Seconded!

[juliet7bravo]

Dunno, either way, I'm bored with arguing about it. Especially since neither of us knows WTF we're arguing about, and the people who do ain't saying. I really hope I'm completely and totally wrong. Hopefully, we'll find out for ourselves SOON and will be able to argue it back and forth on the basis of some personal experience.