The SIAM Navy and Army in AE?

[Kereguelen]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

I'm all for historical accuracy, but unless the complexities around willingness to fight can be coded (which they can't for AE), then I think it's best to leave them out. Otherwise, they can be abused; the Japanese player can recover the morale and train them up over time under the current system, and have fairly decent divisions to serve the Emperor's whims by 1943. Not realistic.

Probably same goes for Manchukuo and Chinese Puppet troops.

And I agree, the second the Allies invade, they probably quit.

Thais (and the other Japanese puppet forces) have been given fixed (very low - nonexistent) replacement (squads & devices) rates and cannot be assigned to other HQ's (they're permanently restricted and can never load on ships) in the AE.

There are still some ways to 'abuse' them in the AE, but their use(fulness) is fairly limited. Especially the Thais are 'one-shot wonders', if they take any combat losses, they can never replace them.

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: Blackhorse

ORIGINAL: Shark7

ORIGINAL: spence

I hope that their morale is hard coded in the teens similar to the Burmese Forces. From what I've read Siam did not wholeheartedly support the Japanese. I can't imagine why. After all 90000 Thais got to lay down their lives for the Emperor building that railroad to Burma. What more could they ask for?

On the other hand, they did fairly well with their initial advance into the Shan States. There was the desire to regain territories they had lost to the Colonial Powers over the years (just look at their attack into French Indo-China in 1940). That turned around in the end as Japan started losing and they simply quit fighting and withdrew back to Thailand. They also ousted their leader in the end.

What should really happen is they start out with mid level morale, but get withdrawn as the war draws to its final outcome.

Then again, if the Japanese are winning big, would the Thais have turned on them?

Lot's of 'what if's'.

From what I've read (and I'm prepared to be contradicted by anyone who is better-read on this subject) the Thais had zero interest in fighting the Brits or the Americans. The 4-Division Thai "offensive" into a region of the Shan States without any WitP 'bases' was opposed by a single Chinese division. In January of 1943 the Thai government signed a truce -- with the Chinese division commander(!) and did not fight the Allies after that.

The Japanese opposed the Thai entry into the war. They were concerned that the Thai leader's desire to annex part of the Shan States would cause the Burmese to turn against the Japanese as occupiers, not liberators.

And, as Shark mentioned, once it was clear that the Japanese were losing, the pro-Japanese Thai leader was overthrown from within, long before Allied forces ever had to fight their way back to Thailand.

It would be well-nigh impossible to code all the historical restrictions that affected the Thais IRL, so in AE the Japanese will get something of a 'bonus' by having the Thai forces to play with. However, I haven't heard of any reports from the AE playtesters about Thai forces having a major a-historical impact in pushing the Brits out of Burma.

You are correct sir. In fact the Thai Army was based on the British divisional system and equipped mostly with British and German weaponry. Your average Thai citizen had no interest in fighting the Americans or Europeans.

Another interesting note, even before the Thai leader was ousted, the Thai and Chinese troops in the Shan States had all but signed a peace deal and quit fighting, IIRC.

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: rockmedic109

There is "Need to have" and "Nice to have".  Having the Thais properly modeled is definately in the "Nice to have" category.  Seems like it would be far too much work to set up.  The only thing I can see is something like Indochina.....The Thais show up if Siam is invaded by the Allies. 

In a PBEM game the Thai Army, Navy and air force could easily be controlled with house rules. Definately nice to have there as it does give you the standing Thai armed forces to defend Siam should the allies attack it. On the other hand, the AI just see's the Thai forces as extra japanese forces to use where ever it sees fit.

I just wonder if a user mod we could create a restricted HQ for them that would hold them at home without having to use the Fortication Device as we do now? And then there is the exception to the rule, the Phayap Army which did invade the Shan States. Once again, the AI will do with them as it pleases, not as it should.

[Kereguelen]

ORIGINAL: Shark7

In a PBEM game the Thai Army, Navy and air force could easily be controlled with house rules. Definately nice to have there as it does give you the standing Thai armed forces to defend Siam should the allies attack it. On the other hand, the AI just see's the Thai forces as extra japanese forces to use where ever it sees fit.

The (land) AI works different and is no problem in this regard (that is, the land AI does what the scenario designer tells her to do).

ORIGINAL: Shark7
I just wonder if a user mod we could create a restricted HQ for them that would hold them at home without having to use the Fortication Device as we do now? And then there is the exception to the rule, the Phayap Army which did invade the Shan States. Once again, the AI will do with them as it pleases, not as it should.

See my above post in this thread about the restrictions already put on the Thai forces in the AE (and again, the AI cannot do as it pleases).

[Andy Mac]

Although an unscrupulous nasty minded AI designer for AE may see a few extra forces lying around as being good for a nasty little suprise for an unwary allied player <whistles innocently> if playing the AI trust nothing old bean trust nothing......I am trying to be as devious as the engine allows.

I may not always get it right but that wont stop me from trying....

[Blackhorse]

ORIGINAL: Shark7
I just wonder if a user mod we could create a restricted HQ for them that would hold them at home without having to use the Fortication Device as we do now? And then there is the exception to the rule, the Phayap Army which did invade the Shan States. Once again, the AI will do with them as it pleases, not as it should.

Shark,

Unfortunately, the restricted HQs merely prevent a subordinate unit from loading onto a ship, not moving overland out-of-theatre. (Hence current House Rules requiring PPs to be spent to move Chinese forces to Burma, or Japanese-Manchurian forces to China). The AE team considered trying to code various geographical restrictions (Dutch to all of Indonesia! Filipinos to all of the Philippines! Chinese Warlord units to specific areas of China! . . . etc. etc.) but it ended up out-of-scope.

In on my wishlist for WitP Part Deux . . . or maybe by WitP Deux-Deux.

But as K says, what the AI does with the Thai forces *can* be controlled through the editor. Use house rules, ridicule or whining to induce the desired behavior in an opposing player. [;)]

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: Blackhorse

ORIGINAL: Shark7
I just wonder if a user mod we could create a restricted HQ for them that would hold them at home without having to use the Fortication Device as we do now? And then there is the exception to the rule, the Phayap Army which did invade the Shan States. Once again, the AI will do with them as it pleases, not as it should.

Shark,

Unfortunately, the restricted HQs merely prevent a subordinate unit from loading onto a ship, not moving overland out-of-theatre. (Hence current House Rules requiring PPs to be spent to move Chinese forces to Burma, or Japanese-Manchurian forces to China). The AE team considered trying to code various geographical restrictions (Dutch to all of Indonesia! Filipinos to all of the Philippines! Chinese Warlord units to specific areas of China! . . . etc. etc.) but it ended up out-of-scope.

In on my wishlist for WitP Part Deux . . . or maybe by WitP Deux-Deux.

But as K says, what the AI does with the Thai forces *can* be controlled through the editor. Use house rules, ridicule or whining to induce the desired behavior in an opposing player. [;)]

I'll just complain loudly, I'm good at that anyway. [:D] I will say that all my opponants so far have been honorable and I've had no need to resort anything more than HRs or a gentlemen's understanding.

Personally for my own games vs the AI, I have added in all the Thai forces. The AI doesn't complain when I send them into Burma. [;)]