Once again, timeline for 7.1 SPWaW patch?

[Bing]

I have only one thing to say on this subject: In 40+ years of gaming, Matrix is far and away the best in terms of listening to its customers and actually doing something about the problems.

Keep up the good work, guys.

Bing

[parusski]

Paul is right. No argument from anyone on this board can change that. The Matrix team clearly stated what was needed in terms of support-and that support did not matarelize. There are enough members and non-members that the goals stated in terms of sales needed should and could have been met. So Paul, do not go on the defensive, you are right in both your direction and attitude!!!!

[Leto II]

When I first got into computer games, the first game that I played, (other than Doom) was the World at War series from Avalon Hill (Operation Crusader, Stalingrad, and D-Day America Invades). At the time I didn't know the designation of that genre to be one of "Wargames".

I have since played many other games, in many other genres. About a year ago, I ran into SP:WAW, downloaded it, and ever since have considered myself primarily a Wargamer.

You could say that I bought 2 of the 3 Megacampaigns then simply for that reason but that wasn't the motivating factor.

After years of dealing with various game communities and game companies, I actually found a company that I was proud to support in Matrixgames. You listen to the community and do the very best that you can primarily for the love of the game and secondarily for a paycheck. (At least that is how it seems to me)

I haven't played either of the 2 Megacampaigns, choosing instead to wait for the release of the patch so that I can play them without having to start over.

Would I like the patch to come out today? Most assuredly. But it is more important to me that companies like Matrix recieve the support that they deserve, especially since so many game companies recieve so many sales for releasing poor products, or do not care for their communities. (Blizzard games comes to mind)

The Wargaming community is very elitist. I understand this mentality, as those who play enjoy very complex games, games that years of research and historical conjecture have allowed to instill with a sense of maturity. A wargame is a more complicated game than Quake for example, or Starcraft, or practically any other mainstream game. Wargamers do not love the mass consumption market for the games made for such are watered down strategically and tactically, made so that the most amount of people can learn the game in the fastest time possible. Such dislike for popular culture results naturally in elitism, although this should never result in a superiority complex when it comes to newbies. I like to think of the matrix community as an elite body of gamers who are always willing to increase their number.

I have not demonstrated any feedback for Combat Leader, although the game is on my mind. I will most likely buy it once it is completed, if only to continue to support Matrix.

I have, in addition, done my best to encourage my RTS friends to download and play SPWAW. The most common complaint is that it is too complicated to learn. However, those that get beyond that agree that its better for its complexity. Hopefully another of my friends will be downloading it today.

My thanks to Matrixgames, who I will continue to support in the future. Always listen to the game community! And we will always demand the next patch to feed our addiction.

[skukko]

Leto II : you said it right.

mosh

[KG Erwin]

I'm glad some of you guys have expressed your concerns over the state of the wargaming community, and your particular concerns about Matrix and their rapidly expanding product line. I also want to thank Paul for his patience with the grumblers amongst us (we know who we are). Yes, I totally agree with Paul's frustration over the lackluster sales and the amount of man-hours spent on tweaking a product they can't even sell. I've had the SPWaW 7.1 beta on my HD for weeks now, and frankly, I'm wondering how much further development is needed or even achievable on the game engine. As for the OOBs, we all know that we can add or change just about any element in the database. However, I think it's unfair to regard ANY sort of disagreement or criticism as not being supportive of the company and its mission. If some of you recall, I tried to gather enough support to stage a SPWaW fan meeting here in West Virginia. I talked to both Dave Heath and Bill Wilder last year about coming here, and both of them (Wild Bill especially) were very supportive. Unfortunately, I didn't have but more than maybe 8 or 10 guys who would make a definite commitment about attending. I had no choice but to let the project die quietly. Given that, I fully understand Paul's predicament about many fans' unwillingness to let their money talk. I'll still waiting for TAO3/Korsun Pocket. That's a game I'm more than happy to fork over cash for, that is, whenever it sees the light of day. I DID make a comment once about the potential danger of Matrix' reach exceeding its grasp. That one still concerns me, but as the cliche goes, time will tell.

[Bing]

Originally posted by skukko
Leto II : you said it right.

mosh

I'll second that. As well said as anyone yet.

Bing

[skukko]

"fans' unwillingness to let their money talk. "

<<<<<<<<<<<

Well, let me say my view, just this time: I have been doing Lost Victories as a team captain about a year now. My money has paid all phonebills that my job in development has created. With that amount spent I could buy hundreds of copies of games from Matrix. Little formula: 100 euros (close to 100 dollars) per month just for this game. We in Finland pay for minutes that we use phonelines... But I have loved all this and I hope it will give you folks, and to me, experience worth of every cent/penny. It is my real reward. Second reward was that I did get MC burned onto CD. Third: Some bucks yet to come. This is my level of dedication...

enough talk about it from my mouth

mosh

[Fallschirmjager]

If you were complaing about patching the MC's you *might* have a legit complaint. But as it stands your bitching at their slowness in patching a FREE game. Im sure the makers of this delightful addiction dont make a whole lot of cash at what they do here with matrixgames especially when they make FREE games. Now if they were to post a msg on their homepage tomorrow that said as of today we officially are going to not make any more games or update the ones we have made, you still would not have a case to come on the forum and complain. They made this game because of their love for the genre, and and as a service for us.
Im going to remember that and I could care less if the patch came out in 5 minutes of 5 months.

[sg]

Well, I've been playing wargames for as long as I can remember ....Avalon Hill board games (Tactics II, Blitzkrieg, etc) and on the PC (Empire Deluxe is still a favorite). I played and own the original SP and SP2. I read a little one line blurb in Computer Gaming Magazine a year or so ago about SPWaW and Matrix and how the game was reworked and so good and FREE. I figured, how good could it be if they're giving it away? Well I downloaded ver 4 I think, and was hooked. I was never much for forums, but I haunted this one from the start. I picked up alot just from reading the posts and responses, and the VAST majority were helpful and supportive. I can recall only a few instances where someone was ridiculed for a "stupid" question and usually someone stepped in and answered the question while putting the out of line respondant back in line. I for one really appreciate the attitude of this forums community and am more willing to post questions and replies without fearing someone ripping into me. What really flabbergasted me is that the Matrix staff is soooo helpful. Someone out there please name me another software company that takes the time to answer ALL of your questions (without having to call a toll number and sit on hold endlessly only to talk to some nimrod who can't/won't answer your question), or listens to your suggestions and works them into the next patch/update (this is your game guys, they use your ideas). Constructive criticism is a good thing, if they don't know its broken they can't fix it. They are working to fix a problem with a product they sold (the MC's) and I for one am willing to give them a very large benifit of the doubt and wait patiently for the 7.1 update and enjoy it when it is done(I bought all three MC's). I would rather wait for the patch to be GOOD and done instead of just done. As far as I'm concerned my money was well spent and will continue to be spent on Matrix's products. They've given me more attention as a consumer and user of their products than all other software companies combined. Well I've said my 2 cents, back to the jungles of MC-W.

Steve.

[rich12545]

Originally posted by Fallschirmjager
If you were complaing about patching the MC's you *might* have a legit complaint. But as it stands your bitching at their slowness in patching a FREE game. Im sure the makers of this delightful addiction dont make a whole lot of cash at what they do here with matrixgames especially when they make FREE games. Now if they were to post a msg on their homepage tomorrow that said as of today we officially are going to not make any more games or update the ones we have made, you still would not have a case to come on the forum and complain. They made this game because of their love for the genre, and and as a service for us.
Im going to remember that and I could care less if the patch came out in 5 minutes of 5 months.

FREE game. That is true for those who didn't buy any mega campaigns. Many of us did. I bought them really to pay for the game and not the mc so it's not a free game for a lot of us. That said I don't believe 7.1 is taking too long compared to other companies. And in the meantime 7.0 isn't exactly unplayable.

[herr1]

I for one have been very happy with the support form Matrix from the very beginning. I was first put on to SPWAW by Paul a long while ago when he answered my email about SPWW2 and poor video quality.

I have just started to order the mega campaigns from Duchet computers in the UK who only charge £1 for postage, so to echo Pauls comments from earlier look for your 'local' dealer and support matrix!

I too am looking forward to SPWAW 7.1, the ultimate SPWAW. However, I wish most of you would bear in mind that the guy has a day job and needs earn money to feed the family!

So please all of you support Matrix by buying their products. They have given me many hours of free pleasure so far so its time to pay them back (and get a good MC in the bargain).

SWWAW 7.1 will be here if we give the guy space!

[cadmus]

If you read Paul's post above very carefully, and think about it for a bit, one might conclude that we may be in serious danger of losing Matrix. The fact that the sales of the MCs is at half or less the anticipated (hoped for?) level might well lead Matrix to revise downward their forecasts for CL. If that happens, at what point do they conclude their business model is not going to work, and throw in the towel? I think they've kept going this long more on dedication, and perhaps, fanaticism, than a reasonable flow of revenue. They can't keep that up for long.

The only solution is sales ... sales! Kind words of support are nice, but if we're going to have Matrix around to feed our habits in the future, they must have sales. I urge all of you who have not bought anything from Matrix to do so as soon as you can. Buy the MCs for yourself. Buy them to give as gifts to friends who you might be able to seduce into joining our merry band. And they make very nice coasters ... better than AOL disks.

I know that many of the readers of this forum are students on very tight budgets. Others may be in a better position to spend a little money. I will volunteer to subsidize a reasonable number of MC purchases for legitimately strapped members of this community. Contact me via e-mail and we'll discuss it. Up to 10 before I cut it off.

I urge other financially solvent forum members make a similar offer.

And those of you not in the US who are put off by the shipping costs ... check again the vendors cited in earlier posts above.

It's sales, guys. Sales! And if we don't support Matrix in a tangible way now, I suspect they won't be around to produce version 3 of CL. Consider your life without Matrix and act!

[robot]

I play 7.0 have for some time. No problem playing. Have gotten oobs from member of this board. Who by the way let me call him because i didnt want to mess up loading. Have found nothing but help from evryone here. I have not bought mega campaigns because i can not afford them. Not because i dont want to give my support. I believe matrix is a great group of people. They in my own mind have put out one dam good game. If 7.1 never comes out it will not ruin my enjoyment of this game. I am retired and live only on social security. Being one of the dumb ones who never cared about how i would make it . This game has taken me back in time. I live these battles. I am there on the field living and dying again. No other games are as realistic as this game. I have cryed when a tank or squad is lost. I shout with joy when a hard fought battle is won. All i can say is thanks go to all the members of matrix and to the other war gamers who inspired and dedicated so much time. Take your time and do what you can ill wait with no complaints.

[young turk]

no offense intended, but the price of the MC's seems to high to me. I'd pay $20, but not $30.

I am actually a little surprised that they sold 3000+ copies. After all, they are add onns to a (necessarily) free game.

I understand the urge to plop down your cash to support Matrix, but it's a pretty rare business that makes money based upon a good hearted desire of their customers rather than a decision that the benefits of the product justify the cost.

Just my .02.

[AmmoSgt]

I have bought every MC .. I don't play MC's ..in fact I have bought more than 1 of each .. they make great Gifts .. and occasionally I get a good opponent out of a gift of a MC ... Folks, I just lost my fav Lee-Enfield Collectors forum this week due to lack of support, it just shut down , and the guy who ran the Forum thanked the 1 person who bought the hat . I will be buying CL and other WW2 Games from Matrix .. Folks seem to worry about the cost of shipping or something ..consider the cost of losing Matrix .. dang it, BUY SOMETHING! Birthdays , Memorial Day, 4th of July, Christmas , any excuse .. Buy a copy for folks who have "Ideas" about how the War Aganist Terrorism should be fought, so they can discuss military stuff inteligently with you ..
As to some of the other issues .. I have never ever anywhere seen a game with the level of beginner support that this game has ..tutorials , Manuals, Forum, tactical tips, support sites .. I know that this doesn't put bread on the Matrix staffs table in every case .. but I think it would be good if some of the player created stuff could be seen as supporting Matrix and the Staffs efforts, hard to do when the wolf is at the door and MONEY is needed more than another player created scenario, . I know nothing replaces MONEY ..so BUY SOMETHING already.. no more excuses .. buy it as a gift if you must , dang it, just buy something.

[Bing]

Originally posted by sg
Well, I've been playing wargames for as long as I can remember ....Avalon Hill board games (Tactics II, Blitzkrieg, etc) and on the PC (Empire Deluxe is still a favorite). .....Steve.

SG - SL and ASL maybe? You're maybe the second or third grog I've met who admits to starting with Tactics II - you're dating yourself, you know. I found Tactics II in 1958 and the rest, as they say (whoever "they" are) was history.

Did you play VG Pacific War; SSI PTO; SSI Empires of the Middle Ages? Flat Top? Command at Sea? Grigsby's Pacific War (computer) - Bond's Harpoon , paper or computer?

I literally wore out a few boards in SL, Flat top and a couple others. Pushing the cardboard over a period of time scrubbed the ink right off the paper lamination.

Remember the five and six hour setup times for the monster games? Then the cat got up on the table and walked thru the entire Pacific war. (I had to devise a series of cardboard boxes to put over the playing surface for when I wasn't there.)

Great times, they were. Made some fine friends back then.

Bing

[mikel]

This is not the sort of discussion I envisioned for my first post but I thought that you might want to hear from a newbie. I am not a “serious “ wargamer, don’t know a great deal about weapons and tactics, and I make the computer opponent look like a genius. However, I find SPWAW fascinating, have purchased all 3 MC’s, (am trying to slog thru MCNA) and I very much hope that Matrix succeeds. After following the discussions on this forum for a while, my observations on this thread are (for what they’re worth):

1. Matrix support (both official and unofficial) is superb. I am amazed at the amount of help that is available, the many free scenarios, and the generally positive tone of the discussion. For example, I stumbled across the MCNA “dumb leader” problem (I first thought it was due to my less-than-inspiring leadership!), found a thread that offered a solution by “Anthony” (to whom I will be eternally grateful), got and installed his patch thru email all in the same day. And it worked!

However, this great strength of Matrix is also a potentially lethal weakness if their desire is to significantly increase participation. Dedicated fans and volunteers (who are critical to success) often feel they have earned significantly more “ownership” than newbies. A newbies place is to be praise Matrix, ask for help, and NEVER offer anything that could be interpreted as negative or even knowledgeable. If they do not follow these unstated rules then they will be severely chastened by a large number of active veterans. Sometimes the newbie deserves it but often it is little more than sending a message that you are not “one of the guys” so butt out. And they probably do. Based on the horror stories I’ve heard about other forums, Matrix veterans seem far better than most. But the sense of “you don’t really belong” is there.

2. The Matrix economic model may not work because they appear extremely stretched but that may be the only hope for getting the volume they need to survive so they might as well try it. However, as a former business owner, my experience is that you are far more likely to over-reach than under-reach. Don’t under-estimate the cost of complexity (and each new game adds to that complexity). The risk is burn-out among your critical core force and errors that drive your customers away. And yes, demand is almost unlimited for anything that’s “free” but can completely dry up when even a small charge is made. That’s life.

3. There is a difference in the level of support necessary for a free product versus one where you have charged $20-30. No one should complain about the support for SPWAW, WIR, or PacWar because they are free. However, the MC’s are completely different. The MCNA leader fix is a good example. “Anthony” has a fix, but it’s unofficial, and does not appear that Matrix is making the fix widely known and available. It should. Also, the LV problems appear far more severe (maybe even unplayable). I almost get the impression in this thread that the MC’s are associated with SPWAW and therefore don’t deserve official support because SPWAW is free and Matrix needs to move on to CL. If true, that would be a big mistake because the MC’s represent Matrix first real products and should not be abandoned (before important problems are fixed in a timely matter) just because they are sucking up resources. I would be willing to bet that the length of time that the LV problem has remained unresolved has already driven away some customers and reduced enthusiasm among others.

I’ve already said more than I intended so let me end by saying thanks to everyone who has worked hard to make Matrix a success. I certainly hope you succeed.

[Grenadier]

Originally posted by young turk
no offense intended, but the price of the MC's seems to high to me. I'd pay $20, but not $30.

I am actually a little surprised that they sold 3000+ copies. After all, they are add onns to a (necessarily) free game.

I understand the urge to plop down your cash to support Matrix, but it's a pretty rare business that makes money based upon a good hearted desire of their customers rather than a decision that the benefits of the product justify the cost.

Just my .02.

Have you even looked at one? Have any idea what is included? To get the photos included in Lost Victories alone you will pay 40-50.00 dollars for a photo book. To get the wealth of information in the documents and historical detail alone you would pay about 50.-100.00 for the books. I have included whole sections from books long out of print, such as Curzio Malapartes-Kaputt and The Volga Rises in Europe and Paul Carell Unterhemen Barbarossa(Hitler Moves East) as well as many pages from Col Davis Glant'z out of Print "THe Initial Period of War on the Eastern Front" symposium study. There are also authentic German OKW commique recordings with english translations and a whole collection of German Army war songs and marching songs. Try finding a CD of those for 20.00

Your attitude is reflective of what is wrong with giving away SPWaW. When you get something for free you don't think very much of it and take it for granted and then anything else is considered not worthy enough because it is related to the free product.

[cadmus]

Mikel ...

If there were an Oscar for "Best First Post", you'd get it! Nicely reasoned. Nicely put. Hope we hear more from you.

[kshinner]

The day after I first saw SPW@W I thought, "Man, what a great dream I had last night. Someone took a great game and made it just about everything I could have wanted ... for FREE! Weird!" Love the game, love the MCs.

Support for the game and the Forum have been top notch.

Unfortunately for Matrix, they're in a unfavorable economic situation, seems to me. You've given me the cake for free (SPW@W) and asked me to pay for the icing (MCs). Which I have, all three. I even bought some other game from Matrix I doubt I'll even play. However, It's a risky thing to rely on the kindness of strangers... Top that off with the fact you're in a genre that caters to a small niche of the computer gaming population. Let's face it, you can entice a lot more people with a first-person shooter than you can with a detailed, realistic war sim.

I'm as anxious as anyone to get 7.1. I'm just praying that it actually DOES solve my MCNA lost leaders problem. So, in the spirit of walking the talk. I'll volunteer to run version 7.1 through MCNA and report any problems.

1. Where do I get the latest 7.1?

2. I thought there were OOB updates to 7.1 that haven't been completely settled on and I understand that my lost leaders issue has something to do with OOBs versus version. Where do I get the OOB that is intended to be put out with version 7.1 and intended to work with MCNA?

3. Who do I tell when/if I have issues with MCNA and version 7.1?