Failure of the Japanese to learn from WWII Europe air war (2+ years of time)...

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: Charles_22

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

ORIGINAL: Charles_22

As far as the lack of self-sealing fuel tanks or armor, I don't think you could learn their deficiencies in the BoB, simply because neither side had those things at least in any aircraft that would expect to do battle with.

Both Spitfire and Me109 had armour for pilot (behind seat and thick armoured windshield). At the time of "Battle of Britain" this become standard (fighters made before lacked it although some field modifications were made)...

As for self-sealing fuel tanks the German bombers most certainly had those.

What I was trying to say, was that neither nation had the deficiencies of having those conditions. IOW, if you're sure you're on the right path and neither nation had those problems, you go on assuming you're right and they are wrong. You had to have one of those nations to have those deficiencies to have learned anything is what I was trying to say.

Ahh yes... very very true...


Leo "Apollo11"

[Yamato hugger]

ORIGINAL: mlees

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: mlees

In parallel, the Germans had a good early war fighter (the Me-109), and were a touch slow in developing a replacement. Both nations counted on short wars.

what about the FW-190? 1940?

I thought the FW-190 was delayed a little bit too, wasn't it? Underappreciated? Couldn't it have been avialable sooner?

Dont think the FW190 was. The ME262 definitely was. It could have been available in late '42.

[Odin]

Of course it was delayed....took some years to make Adolf believe this is a fighter, not the fast BOMBER he wants[:D]

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

ORIGINAL: mlees

ORIGINAL: castor troy




what about the FW-190? 1940?

I thought the FW-190 was delayed a little bit too, wasn't it? Underappreciated? Couldn't it have been avialable sooner?

Dont think the FW190 was. The ME262 definitely was. It could have been available in late '42.

The Me-262 surely was not meant to replace the 109 because the Schwalbe was not what you would call a fighter. It was a bomber destroyer perhaps, but surely no fighter in the terms of what you want an aircraft to be when you need a fighter. By the time the Me-262 showed up in the war you didn´t need much more than a bomber destroyer that was fast, but seeing thousands of Allied bombers attacking Germany in one day/night was probably something noone in Germany really had thought of in 40/41.

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger
Dont think the FW190 was. The ME262 definitely was. It could have been available in late '42.

People keep making this claim...., but even in 1944-45 the engines for the Me-262 were very unreliable and short-lived. And the Fw-190A was a supliment for the Me-109, not a replacement. It wasn't until the Fw-190D that it could be called a "replacement".

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

We all know that Japanese aircraft were extremely fragile under fire and without (or with insufficient) armor and protection.


By the time of Pearl Harbor attack in December 1941 the air war was raging in Europe for almost 24+ months (2+ years) and I wonder why didn't the Japanese learn anything from it (especially "Battle of Britain" from the summer of 1940)?

At the time, armor and self sealers were not 'standard' The original F4F was also designed and produced initially without either. The main constriction for the A6M's designer though was the demanding specs required by the Navy. It had to be fast, maneuverable, well armed and have good range. All this with an engine of limited HP compared to newer models under development elsewhere. Jiro had little choice but to delete any thoughts of armor as weight had to be kept down as much as possible to achieve the specs demanded.

[Mark VII]

Most Jap pilots also refused to have radios mounted in their A6M2's. It would add weight and hurt performance.

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

We all know that Japanese aircraft were extremely fragile under fire and without (or with insufficient) armor and protection.


By the time of Pearl Harbor attack in December 1941 the air war was raging in Europe for almost 24+ months (2+ years) and I wonder why didn't the Japanese learn anything from it (especially "Battle of Britain" from the summer of 1940)?

At the time, armor and self sealers were not 'standard' The original F4F was also designed and produced initially without either. The main constriction for the A6M's designer though was the demanding specs required by the Navy. It had to be fast, maneuverable, well armed and have good range. All this with an engine of limited HP compared to newer models under development elsewhere. Jiro had little choice but to delete any thoughts of armor as weight had to be kept down as much as possible to achieve the specs demanded.

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: Mark VII

Most Jap pilots also refused to have radios mounted in their A6M2's. It would add weight and hurt performance.

The land based units, at least those stationed around Rabaul did but radios, even unreliable ones were essential for carrier based units and they kept them. I have to wonder personally how much the radio's absence actually improved the plane's preformance but then again, I wasn't the one flying it. [:D] Some Japanese pilots felt it did.

[Bogo Mil]

It takes some time to develop a new fighter, thus the experiences in Europe in 1940 could not have much impact on the Japanese fighter production in 1941.

And sometimes experiences can completely mislead people. In the early stages of the Spanish civil war, many nations "learnt", that high maneuverability was still the key for a fighter. Thus many countrys decided to produce such light, slow and maneuverable aircraft, which were already obsolete designs actually (e.g. Gloster Gladiator, I-153, Fiat CR.42). New tactics for fast modern fighters were developed quickly, and these brand new aircraft were virtually worthless in WWII.

[m10bob]

The Japanese had been flying over China since the mid 30's and had been shooting down planes built by all the nations mentioned above. American, German, Italian, Russian, Brit, etc...The Japanese did not NEED to look at any other nations planes, they were convinced they were already in possession of the best..Germany had the Spanish Civil War to get some experience but that did not last near as long, nor produce near as many actual combat pilots.
The Japanese were so hip-deep into Bushido, they even disliked it when the newer planes came out with closing canopies and felt it put a barrier between they and their opponent, and was making killing more......."impersonal"..


http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/sino-japanese.htm

[crsutton]

The real question is, considering that Japan's industrial base was close to third rate (not quite second) is how did they did so well? Personally, their aircraft designers were second to none in my opinion. The real problem was that every design had to be adapted to fit the constraints of Japan's industrial capability.
 
American aircraft designers were not under that type of handicap as the surplus of industrial capacity in the U.S.  could adapt to almost any design challenge.
 

[Dili]

Dont think the FW190 was. The ME262 definitely was. It could have been available in late '42.

Fw190 had many teething problems. And in the end was the wrong fighter for the Defensive War: Good at low level mediocre at altitude.
So much that Germans considered an evolution of Fiat-G55 seeing the Bf-109 at end of its development career. In the end the industrial conversion necessary stoppages in production and the double of man hours to build the Fiat nixed the idea.
Like it was said Me 262 had many engine troubles. Engines had a live of only about dozen hours.

[mdiehl]

The ME262 had so many problems in development that it's just as well they didn't try to field them in 1942. And they never lived up to their hoped for performance as bomber killers.

[Dixie]

ORIGINAL: Dili

Dont think the FW190 was. The ME262 definitely was. It could have been available in late '42.

Fw190 had many teething problems. And in the end was the wrong fighter for the Defensive War: Good at low level mediocre at altitude.
So much that Germans considered an evolution of Fiat-G55 seeing the Bf-109 at end of its development career. In the end the industrial conversion necessary stoppages in production and the double of man hours to build the Fiat nixed the idea.
Like it was said Me 262 had many engine troubles. Engines had a live of only about dozen hours.

That's 'cause the Jumo turbines were made out of cheese [:D]

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: crsutton

The real question is, considering that Japan's industrial base was close to third rate (not quite second) is how did they did so well? Personally, their aircraft designers were second to none in my opinion. The real problem was that every design had to be adapted to fit the constraints of Japan's industrial capability.

How did they do so WELL? Let's see..., they suprised and jumped several powers who by circumstance or agreement were forced to fight them with one hand tied behind their backs by the War in Europe. As to their industrial production being pitifull, well they started changing out their basic infantry rifle in 1936 and were still working on it in 1945.

They did manage to build a lot of aircraft at the end of the war (when they had no decent pilots to put in them). They did this by cutting back on lots of other needed items. In the end they managed to last 3 and 1/2 years because their opponants were distracted by other things for most of that period, and their infantry was willing to suffer and die almost to the last man.

[Monter_Trismegistos]

Funny - if Japan industry was third rate - which one was second rate?

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl
How did they do so WELL? Let's see..., they suprised and jumped several powers who by circumstance or agreement were forced to fight them with one hand tied behind their backs by the War in Europe.

What really USA had in Europe in 1941-1943? So is it better to say that they had at most tied a finger?

They did this by cutting back on lots of other needed items.

Like? Name only important things.

[rockmedic109]

ORIGINAL: Monter_Trismegistos

Funny - if Japan industry was third rate - which one was second rate?

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl
How did they do so WELL? Let's see..., they suprised and jumped several powers who by circumstance or agreement were forced to fight them with one hand tied behind their backs by the War in Europe.

What really USA had in Europe in 1941-1943? So is it better to say that they had at most tied a finger?

They did this by cutting back on lots of other needed items.

Like? Name only important things.

Sorry. I have to agree with Mike on this. 1941 doesn't count. America was at war for less than a month during 1941. While the vast majority of the navy was assigned to the Pacific, most of the ground forces were assigned, earmarked or sent to Europe/Africa.

If the U.S. had not been fighting in Europe, the fight against Japan would have gone a little faster. 8th and 9th Air Forces in the Pacific? Nothing would have survived within range of a U.S. airbase.

1942 would not have been much different. 43 would have seen quite a bit of difference but not war endingly so. The main bottleneck would have been the lack of LST, LSD, and the like.

As far as ground forces go, just look at the U.S. order of battle for forces comitted to the battle of the bulge. That does not count forces north of the bulge, southern France or Italy. Nor does it count the U.S. forces in England that had not yet been comitted to the conflict.

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: Monter_Trismegistos

Funny - if Japan industry was third rate - which one was second rate? How about Great Britian?

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl
How did they do so WELL? Let's see..., they suprised and jumped several powers who by circumstance or agreement were forced to fight them with one hand tied behind their backs by the War in Europe.

What really USA had in Europe in 1941-1943? So is it better to say that they had at most tied a finger?

Right! Britian, France, and Holland were all free to concentrate their efforts and forces in the Pacific. Russia wasn't tied down with a German invasion. True, the US contribution wouldn't have been much different in 1942, but after that? Japan was a third rate power trying to ride Germany's coat tails. Even with the advantages she had, her war aims never amounted to much more than a "smash and grab" and a hope that folks with "other fish to fry" would let them keep the booty.

[castor troy]

I doubt that more forces in the Pacific really would have sped up the advance of the US against Japan. How would you do that? Throw 6 instead of 1 division on an atoll? All loaded on AKs? Real world was not was WITP is...

8th and 9th airforce in the Pacific? Where do you put them? On Guadal Canal or into Lae perhaps? And what do you bomb with all those bombers? Munda?

The US did a very good job as soon as they started advancing in the Pacific and even if there would not have been fighting in Europe, I doubt that they would have advanced MUCH faster.

[wwengr]

ORIGINAL: Monter_Trismegistos

Funny - if Japan industry was third rate - which one was second rate?

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl
How did they do so WELL? Let's see..., they suprised and jumped several powers who by circumstance or agreement were forced to fight them with one hand tied behind their backs by the War in Europe.

What really USA had in Europe in 1941-1943? So is it better to say that they had at most tied a finger?

They did this by cutting back on lots of other needed items.

Like? Name only important things.

Lend-Lease -

• 50 Destroyers to the UK in 1941
• 1,981 Locomotives to the USSR through the War
• 18,700 Aircraft to the USSR
• Hundreds of thousadns of trucks to Britain and the USSR
• Tanks, rifles, munitions, machineguns, etc.

Through the war there were 1400 merchant ships engaged in the Arctic Convoys, how many vessels of all types were in the Pacific?