Patriotism and being a JFB.

[stuman]

I think a lot of us like to play the historical losing side at times just to see if we can do better. As a native ( American ) Southerner for example I like to play that side in Civil War games , not because I wish the South had won, but just to see if I can last a bit longer. Same with the Germans. That being said,  I remember that when my father bought me my first of many Avalon Hill board games, he would NEVER play as the Axis. He was a Korean War vet, and had both friends and family that fought ( and a few died ) in both World Wars. You guys would love to see his home office, a treasure trove of WW2/Korean war memorabilia.

[ChickenOfTheSea]

If, as Japanese, I torpedo and sink the AP General John Pope with my father on board, will I vanish into a tear in the fabric of time? I hope its just a game.

In seriousness, I find playing both sides presents me with two very interesting, but quite different challenges, and, within the limits of the WITP engine, gives you an appreciation of the challenges faced by both sides.

[Japan]

ORIGINAL: grraven2004

I wish to ask the opinion of people here about gaming with the "bad guys"

Well... first of all I think you need to define who the "bad guys" are.

I don't think its easy to tell who is the "good" and who is the "bad guys", if you go into deep detail and look at the history as it actually is and don't only look at how it was presented.

I think most nations at the time did things who served their own interest, and several keep taking such liberates after the war.

So in the question about who the "good" is and who is the "bad" I prefer to have a more sophisticated approach to the question, and my answer must be that they were all bad, some more then others.

Now when the question is about who I would prefer to play, my answer must be Soviet, Germany or Japan.

[niceguy2005]

ORIGINAL: Japan

ORIGINAL: grraven2004

I wish to ask the opinion of people here about gaming with the "bad guys"

Well... first of all I think you need to define who the "bad guys" are.

I don't think its easy to tell who is the "good" and who is the "bad guys", if you go into deep detail and look at the history as it actually is and don't only look at how it was presented.

I think most nations at the time did things who served their own interest, and several keep taking such liberates after the war.

So in the question about who the "good" is and who is the "bad" I prefer to have a more sophisticated approach to the question, and my answer must be that they were all bad, some more then others.

Now when the question is about who I would prefer to play, my answer must be Soviet, Germany or Japan.

Shall we start a list? Sort of like pros and cons and see how things balance out?

[Japan]

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

Shall we sart a list? Sort of like pros and cons and see how things balance out?

wow that would been a huge list, and I agree that the one side would had a longer list then the other,
but still I don't want to call any side for good only because their list is shorter.
There are only a "bad side" and a "bad side" I hardly think you will be able to find any "good side",
except for maybe someone like Bolivia who had no ambitions nor role in it... but then again they are no side as they had no role..

[stuman]

ORIGINAL: ChickenOfTheSea

If, as Japanese, I torpedo and sink the AP General John Pope with my father on board, will I vanish into a tear in the fabric of time? I hope its just a game.

In seriousness, I find playing both sides presents me with two very interesting, but quite different challenges, and, within the limits of the WITP engine, gives you an appreciation of the challenges faced by both sides.

lol C of S, no tearing of the fabric of time ! I need to ask my mother if she remembers which ship(s) my uncle ( long deceased )served on. He left rural Arkansas shortly before the US entered WW2 and served throughout the war in the Merchant Marine, Pacific Theatre. He left home when he was 16, lied about his age, and ended up eventually settling in San Pedro California.

[Feltan]

A lot of wargamers like playing the underdog. There is also a penchant to make former enemies far more capable than they were -- thereby magnifying the victory of the Allies. Some are just romantics for lost causes. Hey, it's all good. I wouldn't worry about playing the Japanese or Germans; I enjoy it too sometimes.

Cuyahoga Falls, OH. Now there is a city I did not expect to read on these boards. I went to High School in that city.

The former Mayor Perk was a family friend, and I spent the first few years of my life living just a few blocks away from him. Later moved south.

Any rememberances of Blossom, concerts at the Collusium, the World Series of Rock and Roll at the old Lakefront Stadium....

Gotta love that dirty water .....

Regards,
Feltan

[sprior]

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
This is a game. It's not real. Let's just have fun. (That's not to say that we can't hold grudges.....Bobo, Sprior, I'm coming for you guys! [:D])....[:)]

What did I do (apart from sink all your carriers)?

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: sprior

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
This is a game. It's not real. Let's just have fun. (That's not to say that we can't hold grudges.....Bobo, Sprior, I'm coming for you guys! [:D])....[:)]

What did I do (apart from sink all your carriers)?

You sank ALL my carriers on the 1st day! Of my 1st day! Then you proceeded to sink and shoot down everything I had. You killed Halsey on Dec. 7th for God's sake! You royally , absolutely and unequivocly kicked my @$$ ![:D]

I'm getting better! We are what, a month and a half into our latest game and I still have all my CV's,BB's , and CA's. Until you massacred my poor defenseless convoy , we were neck and neck, point wise. So all I'm saying is "Look behind you, someone might be gaining!".[:D] (Apologies to Yogi Berra).

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: Feltan

A lot of wargamers like playing the underdog. There is also a penchant to make former enemies far more capable than they were -- thereby magnifying the victory of the Allies. Some are just romantics for lost causes. Hey, it's all good. I wouldn't worry about playing the Japanese or Germans; I enjoy it too sometimes.

Cuyahoga Falls, OH. Now there is a city I did not expect to read on these boards. I went to High School in that city.

The former Mayor Perk was a family friend, and I spent the first few years of my life living just a few blocks away from him. Later moved south.

Any rememberances of Blossom, concerts at the Collusium, the World Series of Rock and Roll at the old Lakefront Stadium....

Gotta love that dirty water .....

Regards,
Feltan

Wow, Blossom and the Collusium. Now that brings back some memories..... [:)]

[mdiehl]

There are only a "bad side" and a "bad side" I hardly think you will be able to find any "good side",

During World War 2 there very clearly was a good side (the Allies) and a bad side (the Japanese and Germans). The only way to find any sort of equivalence is to utterly dispense with standards of morality. Apologists for various Axis powers may try to assert that somehow all of the combatants concern with self interest puts the reasons for fighting the war on an equal footing, but that is a rather transparent evasion of the facts. The Axis powers, whose goal was conquest and whose product was murderous widespread genocide, were stopped by Allied powers who were drawn into a war that they did not want to fight because the Axis powers would not accept any outcome other than global domination.

[DuckofTindalos]

And then there are morons who maintain that both sides were equally bad in WWII. Morons like "Japan".

[Monter_Trismegistos]

And there are people who like to offend others.

And bad guys are always the other guys.

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: Monter_Trismegistos

And bad guys are always the other guys.

In WitP, that's always the case. [:D]

[DuckofTindalos]

There is such a thing as absolute evil, and Japan and Germany were it during WWII, closely followed by Stalinist Russia.

[AW1Steve]

Don't forget T's defination of a Moron: "Anybody who disagrees with T , or in any way fails to fall inline with his expectations or opinions".
One thing I will go on record as saying and beliving , :Name -calling and personal attacks do not belong in this forum--Ever!!!

[John 3rd]

At the risk of bringing the argument back to point...

I have dedicated my academic life to the study of Military History.  Many of you know that my Thesis dealt with the "Treaty" Navy between the wars. 

It is my fundamental position that ANYONE can win as the Allies but the challenge is to play Japan where so many things are stacked against you.  Even when you do fantastically well you will still find yourself in deep doo-doo come mid-1944.  Read Dan and I's Forlorn Hopes AAR to see that.  I has taken ALL of Australia except for Sydney and Melbourne but now--12 months later--I am fighting for my life...

What a game and experience! 

[RHoenig]

Ok, as a german I think I have to jump in here.

1)
The Nazi Regime was EVIL, no discussion about that point necessary!!!
I am extremely thankfull for the allies to sweep those assheads into the gutter of history!

2)
GeStaPo, SS and parts of the Wehrmacht commited atrocities beyond imagination!
Again, no need to discuss this. I know it, you know it.

3)
Not all germans, not even all german soldiers, were like that, however. There were some (many?) with a backbone (is this a phrase in english too?)

Example: General Hoepner, who, in 1942, ordered his troops (4th Panzer Group) to retreat from the russian counterattack at Moskau aginst the direct order of Hitler, with the remark, that his duty to care for his troops outweight that to obey. Of course, he was promptely dismissed from the wehrmacht, striped of all decorations and his pension rights and after July 20, 1944 senteced to death and hanged on August 8th.
There are examples of extremely ruthless commaders too, of course

4)
There were incidents on the allies side as well, but in no way, form or shape up to the extend as there were in the axis
(leaving the soviets aside for the moment, which I personally would put into the "not noticably different in terms of evil than the nazis" pot).
That being said, the allies were no saints either, and I don´t think anyone with a braincell left could argue so.

Still, if there is a "good side" in WW2, and I belive there is, it has to be the (western) allies.
As the saying goes: War is hell, and things happen in war, that NEVER would happen under normal circumstances (except they did happen in Germany and Russia without a war being fought!).

As allways, I believe, the majority of people choose the way of the least resistance.
As someone once said: For evil to win, it is only necessary for good to do nothing.

If you ask me what I would have done in that kind of situation (I do have the benefit of the "late birth", i.e. after WW2)
I can only answer: I hope I would act decent, but I honestly can´t say without being in the actual situation.




Hm, does this count as a political discussion? If yes, I will delete the post.




Ralph Hoenig, Germany

[DuckofTindalos]

And there were people like Manstein (the so-called greatest German general of the war) who ordered his soldiers to be as ruthless as possible in Russia (and we're talking ordinary Landsers, not scum like the SD and Einsatzgruppen).

Germany and Japan deliberately and with malice of forethought pursued organised agendas of pure evil in the territories they conquered. Anybody who ranks that with incidents like Canadian soldiers murdering German POWs in Normandy, or USN sub skippers like O'Kane machinegunning survivors of sunken ships in the water either knows nothing of history, or is an apologist (or both).

Hastings has a great passage in his book Nemesis, where he answers criticism of post-war war crime trials as "victors' justice" by saying "of course the Allies meted out victors' justice. They WON".

[AW1Steve]

This thread started out talking about playing the axis in WITP. Can we return to that please? It's not to say that such discussions are not worthy, they are. But somewhere else. Not here.