The OOOOOOONLY Comment you need to hear

[Brigz]

Les says,

"A common enough error perhaps in thinking, understandable really, is that "wargaming" is only done on a computer in this day and age."


Good point, but unfortuantely, since this is a forum devoted to computer wargames, most new adherents to the hobby know little about "paper" wargames and seem to prefer computer games over "paper" games, in the same way, again unfortunately, as many prefer movies to books. In my collection I have about three hundred paper wargames and maybe forty or fifty computer games. I actually prefer the paper games because you can do so much more with them, not to mention the nostalgia of the golden days of wargaming when SPI and AH were locked in mortal combat to outdo each other. But in reality, with the exception of Advanced Squad Leader, I mostly play computer games. Why? Because of the ease and availability of opponents, be they computer AI or human. Finding a local opponent that has a workable knowledge of the rules and is "socially acceptable" is not an easy task. And to make matters worse, I'm currently struggling with the nail biting decision to purchase the 2nd edition of the ASL rules - a blistering sixty bucks!

There is, however, a program that has the potential to merge paper and computer. Rodney Kinney has developed a program to play paper wargames on the computer. You can even log on to a server and play live against an opponent almost like sitting across the table from each other. Or you can play by email or solitaire. The program is called VASSAL and is an expansion of his Virtual Advanced Squad Leader program. I've posted a module on his site for Avalon Hill's War and Peace and have just finished the original Blue and Grey I quad. I will also soon post OSG's Panzerkrieg which is one of my favorite Russian front games. Of course, you need to own the original game for the rules and charts because posting these would be copyright infringements. The web address for those interestecd is:

http://www.vasl.org/vassal/Download.html

And Les, you'll really appreciate this.... It's absolutely free!

So like I said, there is plenty of wargaming out there, paper or comuputer.

[Brigz]

Oh, and I almost forgot to tell Les, at the VASSAL site they have an original Squad Leader module available. You should like that. Everything's there except the rules and boards and if you have trouble locating the boards I can tell you how to get them (again absolutely free) if you decide to try the program.

[Les_the_Sarge_9_1]

Dave thanks for the ASL tidbits.

As it goes I have seen VASL it looks good and it is well thought of. Even downloaded it all once, but I just can't seem to get my mind wrapped around it yet. I have all the boards additionally as image files (for what reason I havent yet figured out heheh).

I have a good deal of the ASL printed materials in Adobe .pdf file format (actually I am thinking I have every friggin ASL item ever produced in .pdf file format). That includes even odd items like the deluxe vehicle cards. Just likely might be missing a few articles out of the General from years gone by.

I have seen the ASL RB2 by the way. Yes it's hideously expensive is correct. Only way to get it though if you are a new fan. But on the expert opinion of a fellow Face to Face gamer who has it, the manual has not enough actual diferentiation from the original manual to justify the expense. Although the chapter notes are worth scrounging maybe, and possibly the charts from MMP.

It has been my experience though. Most young gamers that will want to actually play a wargame seriously, will prefer the table top over the computer. The beer drinking chip munching looney on the other side of the map is always more enjoyable than the irritating AI that makes moves that are so frustratingly insane it ruins the game. And we all know about version inconsistencies from computer game version to version head aches. To be honest that's why I haven't yet crossed that bridge I suppose.

With a board game it is what it is and nothing more. And with FTF you can only have one version heheh.

It might just be my own personal experience, but I have seen players of computer games play them intensely a few months and then the game is just a coaster thereafter. Where as if I get you interested in a good board gamedesign, it's not inconceivable you are mine for good. I have played several wargames off and on all through more than 2 decades (and never once has my hardware of software fouled the game heheh). Even my oldest games still play correctly at least.

I love Steel Panthers incredibly, but who knows, in 10 years it might no longer be possible to indulge it (cant play a good number of "old classics" as it goes. For instance does anyone still have use of a 5.25 disk drive? Heck 3.5 sucks and even a single speed cd rom isnt going to cut it.

But my kitchen table works the same way every time heheh (assuming I clean it off first).

[Brigz]

I hope others will indulge me and Les for where this thread is going but I always find it interesting to discuss the pros and cons of computer games vs. traditional board wargames.

There is one thing I've always had trouble with playing computer games and that is having to scroll the map and zoom in and zoom out. The one great advantage of a tabletop game is that you can look at it and take it all in in one glance. There is no way that any computer game can get around that. If you zoom out then you lose detail. When moving a unit or firing at something you almost always have to move part of the way then scroll or zoom out, then zoom back in, scroll, then move more. Then I have to zoom out and search to find the next unit to move. This has always been a problem for me.

On the other hand, the reason I mostly play computer games and am so interested in VASSAL is that it is so inconvient leaving a tabel top game set up. I have a very persistant animal around here and he just won't leave my wargames alone if I leave them set up on a table. There's something about those counters that are irrestistable to him. (And yes, I have considered euthanasia. For him, not me.) When playing an ASL scenario, we very rarely finish in one setting because as you probalbly know half the time is spent looking up and arguing rules. So when we're done I have to get out my old drawing board and stack all the components on it very carefully and hide it in my bedroom so the beast can't get to it. That's almost impossible with a paper map game even though I always use a plexiglass sheet to cover the map to make it flat like a mounted board.

Well, enough ranting. Today is ASL day and I've got to go set up a new scenario for the afternoon session. Now where's that f***ing beast so I can lock him up and safely set up the game.

I hope the folks at Matrix will excuse me for so much non SPWaW talk.

[Les_the_Sarge_9_1]

Two edged sword eh man, we get to see the whole map but what do we do with it heheh.

Forunately I have a special room devoted to my hobbies. Not a common privildge of course (and its not like its a large room either. I can accomodate a 4.5x 5.5 game surface option on the table in there. But its more a storage room for my models than anything else.
Being a woodworker though I have the stoage angle well handled.
Don't have any pets to complain over fortunately (son's hamster doesn't rate a problem hehe.

But yeah the scolling through a computer map is my primary beef. That and I aaaaaaaabsolutely refuse to scramble after things with a mouse. Wargames to me are thinking games. And chase em with the mouse games are two arcady for my interests. There might be RTS games out there that require experience and might even require thinking, but in the end they are always chase em with the mouse games.

As is always with me, I would not be here if Steel Panthers wasnt like ASL. I'll buy Combat Leader simply because it will likely be a superior Steel panthers. And that means it will be a superior ASL emulator. But always, it's ASL that impresses me the most. Everything else is just trying to be like ASL to me. At the end of the day, I like to see them stacks of counters. I have more fun making my own sound effects anyways heheh. Although I must admit I found it cool when I learned how to put all the Steel Panthers sounds into an assorted sounds file I can play looped through my WinAmp program. Great background noise eh.

[john g]

Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
Dave thanks for the ASL tidbits.


I love Steel Panthers incredibly, but who knows, in 10 years it might no longer be possible to indulge it (cant play a good number of "old classics" as it goes. For instance does anyone still have use of a 5.25 disk drive? Heck 3.5 sucks and even a single speed cd rom isnt going to cut it.

But my kitchen table works the same way every time heheh (assuming I clean it off first).

I may be the exception to the rule, but I never get rid of hardware once I buy it. I not only still have a 5.25 drive in my 486 (run spww2 and sp2 on that machine) I also have them on my 80286 portable and 8088 portables, and even on my old trs 80 machines.

I also still have running several s-100 cpm machines with 8 in drives (which are built well enough to last forever).

The only piece of software I can't still run is the one that never ran from the start.
thanks, John.