ASW in 1944

[Charles2222]

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

In my limited games as Japan I find Vals and Kates with high exp (75+) to be excellent ASW AC. If I have carriers in the area I will cruise them slowly between two points with ASW set to 100% and I get a good number of detections and kills. Vals in particular if they detect a sub put a bomb into it with enough regularity to be effective. And those 250 KG bombs really hurt subs.

I stated what I just did, because mdiehl objects to the IJ player being able to use IJAAF aerial assets to do ASW work, as he alleges that only IJN did that. So, you see what I'm saying, that while on the surface, if mdiehl is correct, it looks like that 'helps' IJ to be able to use the IJAAF for ASW work, the ironic thing is it does the exact opposite.

[thegreatwent]

Do you have an Air HQ in the area that is in range of the bases you are flying out of?

I think that even the LB sightings help direct or bring to the attention of ASW DB air units an enemy sub for an attack run.

I've seen statements on this thread regarding LB sighting but not hitting enemy subs. There is, according to the manual, a minimum requirement of a 5k altitude for LBs that, I think, has an impact on a successful attack of an enemy sub.

What is the range setting on your DBs? I would try reducing the range to normal or less. And use aggressive leaders for your air units.

I get very good results with my DB flying at an altitude of 6k. I know DB attack @ 2k but I think they spot better at 6k.


Regards,

BJ

Thanks BJ and everyone else. I think my LBs were low and will try flying a 5k. Plus review my units commanders perhaps more aggressive commanders will inspire better results.

[AirGriff]

I'm playing a BigB mod and I can tell you with my best confidence that, first, IJA level bombers most certainly do get hits, especially the Helens (not sure if they're on nav search or asw patrols), and second, the late war Jap PC's are absolutely brutal at hitting allied subs. I could spend all my time on a turn just playing cat and mouse with those bloody things.

[Charles2222]

ORIGINAL: AirGriff

I'm playing a BigB mod and I can tell you with my best confidence that, first, IJA level bombers most certainly do get hits, especially the Helens (not sure if they're on nav search or asw patrols), and second, the late war Jap PC's are absolutely brutal at hitting allied subs. I could spend all my time on a turn just playing cat and mouse with those bloody things.

Perhaps part of the mod was to eliminate the problem of level bombers (2E's) not hitting any subs?

[RUPD3658]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: stuman

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

BTW, IJN level bombers set to Nav Search or ASW do not score hits. Ever. You will see them attack, but not hit anything.

So only set Japanese bombers to Naval Attack if you are goiing after subs ? I did not know that.

Q-Ball was speaking about IJNAF level bombers like Nells, Betties, Frances. Those level bombers that carry torps, and the same goes for the patrols. You see them attacking but they never hit so I guess that´s a bug. I´ve never seen a single sub in thousands of PBEM turns taking damage from such an attack. Not IJN, nor Allied subs. It works when torp carrying single E bombers attack though. Kates or TBFs work just fine. Don´t know what strange bug or feature that is.

Bombers on nav attack will never attack a sub though.

I have suffered hits on my subs from Bettys and Emilys but not as often as from Sally/Helens.

[Charles2222]

rupd3658: Do you have any idea what version you played where you got the sally/helen hits?

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Charles_22

rupd3658: Do you have any idea what version you played where you got the sally/helen hits?

Helens and Sallies hit in every mod as they carry torps. There´s a problem when the bombers carry torps as they "should" carry bombs during nav/asw search but like I´ve mentioned earlier, in my 5000 PBEM turns they have yet to hit something.

RUPD states that he got hits though. Not my experience.

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: RUPD3658

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: stuman




So only set Japanese bombers to Naval Attack if you are goiing after subs ? I did not know that.

Q-Ball was speaking about IJNAF level bombers like Nells, Betties, Frances. Those level bombers that carry torps, and the same goes for the patrols. You see them attacking but they never hit so I guess that´s a bug. I´ve never seen a single sub in thousands of PBEM turns taking damage from such an attack. Not IJN, nor Allied subs. It works when torp carrying single E bombers attack though. Kates or TBFs work just fine. Don´t know what strange bug or feature that is.

Bombers on nav attack will never attack a sub though.

I have suffered hits on my subs from Bettys and Emilys but not as often as from Sally/Helens.

Just went back through all the Threadwar turn (7 mos so far): Bettys DID get hits on NON-subs... but no sub hits (this is CHS).

Similarly, no hits on SUBS by Nells, Emilys, Catalinas... of course, Catalinas were known never to have destroyed a sub during the actual war, right?? [:'(]

[Q-Ball]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

Q-Ball was speaking about IJNAF level bombers like Nells, Betties, Frances. Those level bombers that carry torps, and the same goes for the patrols.

That's correct, IJN 2Es do not get hits on subs when set to Nav Search or ASW. They attack, but don't hit anything. Betty, Nell, Frances. Wasn't talking about IJA Bombers, which get LOTS of hits.

I have never seen Emily or Mavis hit anything either.

I HAVE seen hits from 1E floatplanes. Not many, but some.

Point is, don't bother putting your IJN 2Es on ASW duty, you're just wasting your time

[Mynok]

It's not a waste. They will still spot subs for your ASW work, which is far more effective at killing them than plane bombs.

[flaggelant]

seeing recon planes attacking subs always makes me laugh
(and doubt the capability of the pilot...)


*Pilot fires flare gun at sub*



supposed a betty/ nell would fly extended range, not carrying torps that would be a situation where you might score a hit,
but thats a lot of work to go trough for some sub drifting along hundreds of miles out of the coast..

[Barb]

Cant that be caused by having 1x800kg AP bomb instead of torpedo (for Nell and Betty) ? With 1 bomb you are not going to hit many targets (in WITP). Having 4-6-8 bombs (in Hellen and Sally) are much better at achieving hits in WITP. Having B-17 or B-24 with 16 bombs in a bomb bay, well that is another story [:D]

[thegreatwent]

Ok, Helens at 5k ASW and 75+exp are now getting hits. Sally and Lily seem to be homely belles at the ball. Mary and Anne are making out as they have in the past, as though they are playing for a different side. Enemy fish seem to still like my TKs. Once again thanks for the pointers they do seem to be helping[:)]. Hope to finish the game even with AE tempting me.

[Fallschirmjager]

This is coming from both Allied and Japanese games. I find aircrew experience to be a much more deciding factor in ASW ops rather than plane type.
Even navalized versions of B-24s with loads of bombs and good ranges rarely ever get sub detections and kills if they have low exp.
Meanwhile my SBDs get an enourmous amount of detections and kills since they are usualy in the 80+ exp range.
Put your carrier based attack planes on 100% ASW or 100% naval search and they will rack up detections and kills at very impressive rates.

[pompack]

In stock I have gotten many, many hits with Sally or Helen on either 100% search or 100% ASW

Significant points
1. Patrolling a/c attack with their standard loadout. Betty, PBY, Nell, etc will attack but logically they will rarely hit a sub with a torpedo, although I have seen it happen (Betty) once.

2. Experience is absolutely critical. However Helen/Sally trained to 85+ will hit a LOT. I no longer have the numbers available from an old test, but about six units flying out of Truk against 20-30 subs within normal range were hitting 3-5 per turn.

3. No longer can find the data, but I do not remember ASW getting significantly better results than normal search; however that could have been an artifact of the test since there were more targets to find outside of ASW range

4. For patrolling a/c, experience increased with each detection and with each hit. (I started with 85 for each unit and after ten turns one was over 90)

[Charles2222]

ORIGINAL: pompack

In stock I have gotten many, many hits with Sally or Helen on either 100% search or 100% ASW

Significant points
1. Patrolling a/c attack with their standard loadout. Betty, PBY, Nell, etc will attack but logically they will rarely hit a sub with a torpedo, although I have seen it happen (Betty) once.

2. Experience is absolutely critical. However Helen/Sally trained to 85+ will hit a LOT. I no longer have the numbers available from an old test, but about six units flying out of Truk against 20-30 subs within normal range were hitting 3-5 per turn.

3. No longer can find the data, but I do not remember ASW getting significantly better results than normal search; however that could have been an artifact of the test since there were more targets to find outside of ASW range

4. For patrolling a/c, experience increased with each detection and with each hit. (I started with 85 for each unit and after ten turns one was over 90)

Thank you. I was always wondering if flying a patrol and not spotting or hitting anything would help gain experience. I know the chances of that being the case weren't great, but it just sounded like something the programmers would miss. I don't think the game rewards planes, experience-wise for just damaging enemy planes, but just for kills, and if that's the case, it would sound like something that would skirt by, concerning patrols and what they spot and/or attack, that they would only gain experience through kills (excepting that being in flight alone could make them gain experience).

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Mynok


It's not a waste. They will still spot subs for your ASW work, which is far more effective at killing them than plane bombs.

you don´t mean that serious do you? I would prefer a hundred times a 250kg bomb hit on a sub (that puts it under in 1 out of 3 times, or at least forces it back to it´s home port in 9 out of 10 times) than having it just spotted... [&:] You spot it... and? You have to move in an ASW group and have to FIND the sub (a good PBEM player moves it anyway). And then? Just because you get into the same hex perhaps doesn´t mean anyhting. Perhaps you lose a DD because the sub shoots first. In 50% of the time your DDs do nothing, if the ratio isn´t worse. When dropping DCs, what does that mean. Mostly near misses that just rack up some sys damage. Two direct hits is what you want at least and you have to have your ASW TF in the same hex as a sub at least one and a half dozen times to actually achieve that. Speaking about IJN ASW.

Preferring a spotting over a 250kg bomb hit? No way sir...

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: flaggelant

seeing recon planes attacking subs always makes me laugh
(and doubt the capability of the pilot...)


*Pilot fires flare gun at sub*



supposed a betty/ nell would fly extended range, not carrying torps that would be a situation where you might score a hit,
but thats a lot of work to go trough for some sub drifting along hundreds of miles out of the coast..

nothing to do with extended range. All torp carrying aircraft carry (should carry) bombs when being on nav search. But that doesn´t work for IJN 2e bombers in my WITP version.

You are correct about the recon planes, that´s just odd...

[John Lansford]

A spotted sub has a lowered chance to find and attack a TF than one that is unspotted.  Of course a sub that was attacked and damaged has an even lower chance, but there is an advantage to knowing where the sub is; TF's will attempt to route around where a known sub is located.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

A spotted sub has a lowered chance to find and attack a TF than one that is unspotted.  Of course a sub that was attacked and damaged has an even lower chance, but there is an advantage to knowing where the sub is; TF's will attempt to route around where a known sub is located.

they only route around the sub at the beginning when you set a destination. The AI isn´t smart enough to alter the TFs heading when it´s underway already. And in late 43 or early 44+, the "lower chance" of attacking for Allied subs with radar isn´t really striking as they will still attack most times anyway. So if you don´t do anything against the spotted sub, it will just sink your ships as if it wouldn´t be spotted. Just look at the spotted subs sitting in base hexes for days/weeks. You may think how vulnerable they would be and place two ASW TFs above them. Daily spotted, nothing happens. Your AK TFs enters the hex, boom, AK sunk by the sub.