What A Great Game

[wworld7]

ORIGINAL: DivePac88

WitP and WitP-AE are like really good bottles of Red Wine;

I dislike Red wine.

But I enjoy WiTP!!!

[IndyShark]

I don't buy many games, but AE is going to be one of them. Is it expensive? Yes, but I've purchased many games and stopped playing them after a few days or a week or two. WITP was super. I am a little anxious about the detail in AE, but I hope it's as much fun as WITP with better graphics and more features. I'll purchase it and be very happy when it arrives.

[MadmanRick]

You know, I've yet to play a perfect video game. I've purchased many dogs in my time (Patriot by 360 Pacific comes to mind) and I've purchased many other games that have left me dissatisfied (Close Combat - Modern Tactics anyone?). However, I have never once criticized the company for their pricing or whatever. I've always sort of figured that you live and learn mostly through trial and error. I can tell you this much, if WitP left you unhappy, then AE at ANY price probably won't do anything to help you along the path to gaming nirvana. WitP and AE are very particular types of games, they are never (and are not meant to) going to appeal to the masses. They are as close to an electronic board wargame as I've seen (as far as detail goes) and we all know how popular those are now.

Rick

[Halsey]

ORIGINAL: IndyShark

I don't buy many games, but AE is going to be one of them. Is it expensive? Yes, but I've purchased many games and stopped playing them after a few days or a week or two. WITP was super. I am a little anxious about the detail in AE, but I hope it's as much fun as WITP with better graphics and more features. I'll purchase it and be very happy when it arrives.

Don't worry about it being harder.

A veteran WITP player will get the hang of it pronto.

As an offnote, the hardest thing for me to remember, is to grease invasions with a Naval Service Bn.
These little babies are probably the most important LCU's in the game.[;)]
They're like beachmaster units, just enough naval support provided to slip LCU's on to a beach more easily.
Hint, hint...[;)][:D]

[Yamato hugger]

ORIGINAL: MadmanRick

You know, I've yet to play a perfect video game. I've purchased many dogs in my time (Patriot by 360 Pacific comes to mind) and I've purchased many other games that have left me dissatisfied (Close Combat - Modern Tactics anyone?). However, I have never once criticized the company for their pricing or whatever. I've always sort of figured that you live and learn mostly through trial and error. I can tell you this much, if WitP left you unhappy, then AE at ANY price probably won't do anything to help you along the path to gaming nirvana. WitP and AE are very particular types of games, they are never (and are not meant to) going to appeal to the masses. They are as close to an electronic board wargame as I've seen (as far as detail goes) and we all know how popular those are now.

Rick

Exactly why I am NOT the first one in line to buy a new game. Personally I wait a time to see what others say about it before I buy. And that usually results in me not buying a game.

I didnt buy UV. I didnt buy WPO. In fact, I didnt even buy WitP - it was a birthday gift from a friend that bought it and didnt like it. Never really much cared for the early versions, but over time as bugs got squashed and mods came out (CHS) I learned to like it. Between WitP and PacWar I had a lot more fun with PacWar over the same period of time truth be told. A lot of really good pieces in that game were not incorporated into WitP, which I could never figure out why not (HQ control, sig intel, ect). The one overwhelming improvement that made WitP more "playable" to me than PacWar was being able to go anywhere on the map. And Andys map in CHS was another step in the right direction - for me.

The only Matrix product that I have actually bought is that UFO game because it looked to be identical to the Apple version of the same game which I enjoyed. And for all intents and purposes, it is. Was never sorry I bought that one.

[mjk428]

ORIGINAL: vettim89

There has been a lot of noise on this Forum lately that quite frankly is getting under my skin. I would like to make a few points

1. First it has been said that WiTP is a "broken game" and that AE is necessary just to fix it. Ergo some think the pricing schedule is unfair because Matrix is just making people pay to have a functional WiTP. That is untrue; WiTP is not a broken game. It is without a doubt the best computer game I have ever played. Besides being incrdibly engaging, it is also very stable. I have experienced few or any crashes with this game and those that I did experience were my fault not the games (alt-Tabbing messes up most games). Look at the AAR Forums and you can see hundreds of players who have devoted thousands of hours of game time to WiTP. If it was truly broken, do you think that would be true? Yes, there are some problems but they are not so horrible so as to declare the game broken.

2. AE was started and developed by WiTP players for WiTP players who loved the game but wanted to see some of the issues with the original addressed. Incredibly Matrix Games, was responsive to this group and now we are on the verge of having AE. First, kudos to Matrix for allowing this project to go forward. Truth is some of the major issues with WiTP could have been fixed with a patch and we would still have the game we had before. Instead, Matrix let Henderson Field Games go hog wild and now we will have a game that not only fixes issues like the leader bug and pilot pool exhaustion but also will add layers of depth and realism that are making most of us drool at the possibilities. Two points here: first AE was always aimed at people currently playing WiTP and second I think you would have a hard time finding any company (not just a game company) who is as responsive to their customers as Matrix

3. For those of you trying to make the point that the WiTP/AE bundle is too costly either for you or for you to recruit your friends to play, the game is probably not for you or them. Any serious Gronard with any interest in the PTO probably bought WITP years ago. My point being that this is not a casual war game. It is intense and very difficult to learn and play. If you or your friends need to be "talked into" buying either game, then it is probably not the game for you. You/they will probably be turned off by the complexity and give up on the game. I do not mean this to be a put down. I am just saying these games were designed for a very specific but small audience. There are plenty of PTO games out there that are less complex and more games than simulations. There are only a few of us who truly enjoy this type of hard core game/simulation.

4. Lastly on the economics side. As a small business owner I understand what it means to try to remain viable in this economy. Matrix is not some huge development studio like EA Games. It is a small niche market company. y default their games are going to cost a lot more than those aimed at a broader market. I am sure that the brain trust at Matrix spent considerable time trying to decide the pricing. If you feel you are being cheated, that is your right. I on the other hand would never be so inclined to tell some one else how to run their business. Consider this: if one of my clients walked into my office and stood in the lobby talking to my other customers about how bad my prices were, I would call the cops and have them removed. Matrix is letting you go on and on without any effort to stop you. Also, poor Erik is actually respectful enough to actually try to address your concerns. Try that at any other business and I think the manager would not come out and talk to you nicely but instead have you forcefully removed. More Kudos to Matrix

1. WitP is a broken game if you play the AI. Unless one enjoys playing against an "intelligence" that sends all their ships/subs to one spot and can't manage to keep them fueled.

2. Matrix is a fine company.

3. I am definitely one of the few members of the target demographic. Have been since '81. BTW, it's "Grognard" which means "grumbler".

4. As much as I want Matrix to succeed, their business is theirs to mind, not mine. They've chosen to provide a public forum and they seem to welcome constructive feedback.

[pmelheck1]

Personallly I am looking forward to the new complexity of AE. If I didn't want this massive level of detail I would be playing War Plan Pacific. I do want this level of detail so for me AE is going to be the ticket. As for the price all I can say is when can I pay? I don't expect to pay a pinto price for a ferrari. AE isn't the only game in town and all are welcome to play the others, but for the level of detail I want AE is the only game for me. I have no problems supporting Matrix games at all. I know of few other programs that are still getting support 5 years later. For me this hasn't been just a game program it's been a passion and I think it is for a few others too. Some of the conversations this game has started is just outstanding. To matrix games Keep up the good work and where to I sign up for AE. My 2 cents from the (hopfully) silent lurker majority out here.

Kevin

[YankeeAirRat]

Am I wrong because I bought this game three times? Once for myself and another copy after my dog got at the first CD. Finally one to pass of to a friend of mine who likes to play games like this. I would suggest that those gamers out there complaining about having to play full price for what is basically a mod, think about how much money EA rakes in with thier sports games. There some gamers are paying full price again for what amounts to a patch and player mod. Yet people are still willing to go out every year and purchase a new Madden edition, NHL, NCAA, NBA, etc. I work with a guy who no kidding has every edition from 1997 to 2009 of EA's NHL series.

This debate reminds me of debates on a old war gaming club I use to belong. There were people who would complain and moan that some of the companies like Victory Games, GDW, Avalon Hill, etc. would put out games that were a pain in the rear to plan for sixty plus dollars. Some of the rest of the people in the club would spend the rest of the couple of hours defending those same companies by noticing they put out some even better games that cost the same thing. The debate would also go over to having to re-buy a board game because they put over version 1A, 2, 3,etc.

I have really enjoyed this game, even if I don't get that much time to play it. I think it is awesome that they are putting out AE edition. It is so awesome to see this company still supporting a game that is four plus years old on top of that there is such an active fan base producing such awesome mods and add-ons to make this an even better game.

[IndyShark]

Harder is relative. I don't want to spend hours managing small units every turn. I like the pace of WITP.

In any case, I am sure it will be a lot of fun.

[vettim89]

ORIGINAL: mjk428


1. WitP is a broken game if you play the AI. Unless one enjoys playing against an "intelligence" that sends all their ships/subs to one spot and can't manage to keep them fueled.

Probably one of the most valid crticisms of the game. Matrix has not hesitated at all to acknowledge this fact and put a lot of man hours into AE to address it

2. Matrix is a fine company.

Concur

3. I am definitely one of the few members of the target demographic. Have been since '81. BTW, it's "Grognard" which means "grumbler".

Well that is true. We are a bunch of grumpy old men for the most part (some older than most and some grumpier than most). War gamers are complainers by nature. Would be interestesting to see some psychology type do a study of the personality characteristics of grognards

4. As much as I want Matrix to succeed, their business is theirs to mind, not mine. They've chosen to provide a public forum and they seem to welcome constructive feedback.

A stance I for one beleive that should be applauded

I am grateful for AE and look forward to playing it for hours on end. Hopefully I will be able to find another fool to join me in a game

[Yamato hugger]

That is one potentially huge advantage of AE over WitP for those that play 1 player games. A society of which I am NOT nor never will be a member. With the AI scripts, people can come up with new ones and Im sure there will be a site devoted to them so that when you have gotten bored with 1, you can try another.

[tigercub]

ORIGINAL: vettim89

There has been a lot of noise on this Forum lately that quite frankly is getting under my skin. I would like to make a few points

1. First it has been said that WiTP is a "broken game" and that AE is necessary just to fix it. Ergo some think the pricing schedule is unfair because Matrix is just making people pay to have a functional WiTP. That is untrue; WiTP is not a broken game. It is without a doubt the best computer game I have ever played. Besides being incrdibly engaging, it is also very stable. I have experienced few or any crashes with this game and those that I did experience were my fault not the games (alt-Tabbing messes up most games). Look at the AAR Forums and you can see hundreds of players who have devoted thousands of hours of game time to WiTP. If it was truly broken, do you think that would be true? Yes, there are some problems but they are not so horrible so as to declare the game broken.

2. AE was started and developed by WiTP players for WiTP players who loved the game but wanted to see some of the issues with the original addressed. Incredibly Matrix Games, was responsive to this group and now we are on the verge of having AE. First, kudos to Matrix for allowing this project to go forward. Truth is some of the major issues with WiTP could have been fixed with a patch and we would still have the game we had before. Instead, Matrix let Henderson Field Games go hog wild and now we will have a game that not only fixes issues like the leader bug and pilot pool exhaustion but also will add layers of depth and realism that are making most of us drool at the possibilities. Two points here: first AE was always aimed at people currently playing WiTP and second I think you would have a hard time finding any company (not just a game company) who is as responsive to their customers as Matrix

3. For those of you trying to make the point that the WiTP/AE bundle is too costly either for you or for you to recruit your friends to play, the game is probably not for you or them. Any serious Gronard with any interest in the PTO probably bought WITP years ago. My point being that this is not a casual war game. It is intense and very difficult to learn and play. If you or your friends need to be "talked into" buying either game, then it is probably not the game for you. You/they will probably be turned off by the complexity and give up on the game. I do not mean this to be a put down. I am just saying these games were designed for a very specific but small audience. There are plenty of PTO games out there that are less complex and more games than simulations. There are only a few of us who truly enjoy this type of hard core game/simulation.

4. Lastly on the economics side. As a small business owner I understand what it means to try to remain viable in this economy. Matrix is not some huge development studio like EA Games. It is a small niche market company. y default their games are going to cost a lot more than those aimed at a broader market. I am sure that the brain trust at Matrix spent considerable time trying to decide the pricing. If you feel you are being cheated, that is your right. I on the other hand would never be so inclined to tell some one else how to run their business. Consider this: if one of my clients walked into my office and stood in the lobby talking to my other customers about how bad my prices were, I would call the cops and have them removed. Matrix is letting you go on and on without any effort to stop you. Also, poor Erik is actually respectful enough to actually try to address your concerns. Try that at any other business and I think the manager would not come out and talk to you nicely but instead have you forcefully removed. More Kudos to Matrix

1.for New comers to ww2 is not broken,but to I it was unplayable!
The rest i agree mostly.

Tiger!

[Flying Tiger]

ORIGINAL: vettim89

There has been a lot of noise on this Forum lately that quite frankly is getting under my skin. I would like to make a few points

1. First it has been said that WiTP is a "broken game" and that AE is necessary just to fix it. Ergo some think the pricing schedule is unfair because Matrix is just making people pay to have a functional WiTP. That is untrue; WiTP is not a broken game. It is without a doubt the best computer game I have ever played. Besides being incrdibly engaging, it is also very stable. I have experienced few or any crashes with this game and those that I did experience were my fault not the games (alt-Tabbing messes up most games). Look at the AAR Forums and you can see hundreds of players who have devoted thousands of hours of game time to WiTP. If it was truly broken, do you think that would be true? Yes, there are some problems but they are not so horrible so as to declare the game broken.

2. AE was started and developed by WiTP players for WiTP players who loved the game but wanted to see some of the issues with the original addressed. Incredibly Matrix Games, was responsive to this group and now we are on the verge of having AE. First, kudos to Matrix for allowing this project to go forward. Truth is some of the major issues with WiTP could have been fixed with a patch and we would still have the game we had before. Instead, Matrix let Henderson Field Games go hog wild and now we will have a game that not only fixes issues like the leader bug and pilot pool exhaustion but also will add layers of depth and realism that are making most of us drool at the possibilities. Two points here: first AE was always aimed at people currently playing WiTP and second I think you would have a hard time finding any company (not just a game company) who is as responsive to their customers as Matrix

3. For those of you trying to make the point that the WiTP/AE bundle is too costly either for you or for you to recruit your friends to play, the game is probably not for you or them. Any serious Gronard with any interest in the PTO probably bought WITP years ago. My point being that this is not a casual war game. It is intense and very difficult to learn and play. If you or your friends need to be "talked into" buying either game, then it is probably not the game for you. You/they will probably be turned off by the complexity and give up on the game. I do not mean this to be a put down. I am just saying these games were designed for a very specific but small audience. There are plenty of PTO games out there that are less complex and more games than simulations. There are only a few of us who truly enjoy this type of hard core game/simulation.

4. Lastly on the economics side. As a small business owner I understand what it means to try to remain viable in this economy. Matrix is not some huge development studio like EA Games. It is a small niche market company. y default their games are going to cost a lot more than those aimed at a broader market. I am sure that the brain trust at Matrix spent considerable time trying to decide the pricing. If you feel you are being cheated, that is your right. I on the other hand would never be so inclined to tell some one else how to run their business. Consider this: if one of my clients walked into my office and stood in the lobby talking to my other customers about how bad my prices were, I would call the cops and have them removed. Matrix is letting you go on and on without any effort to stop you. Also, poor Erik is actually respectful enough to actually try to address your concerns. Try that at any other business and I think the manager would not come out and talk to you nicely but instead have you forcefully removed. More Kudos to Matrix

Thanks for taking the time to post this Vettim. After all the shrapnel flying from the pricing issue it was nice to find a positive thread. Sadly our dear friend charles had to stick his nose in and spread his poison, so the thread was almost hijacked into becoming ANOTHER pricing thread, but somehow i think we got back on track.

Erik, if you return to this thread, read this bit:

MOST of us really enjoy WitP (despite its faults). MOST of us are extremely grateful to Matrix for not only supporting an ageing game, but for going one step further and providing what looks like being a whole new gaming experience. MOST of us would like to shake your hand and say "thanks mate". And MOST of us would like to tell the whining minority to..... well, maybe i'll leave it right there.

Thanks for the many enjoyable hours we have all spent on what is truly a great game.

[aprezto]

I love that I can use the wife's 'price per wear' arguement justifying the cost of the new pair of manatee skin boots and tiger fur jacket, with WitP and beat her hands down.
Of course, she doesn't think the arguement is valid because the low price per use is indicative of the time I have wasted with 'that bloody game'.
No one else here seems to have raised the friendships you strike up while playing a game that can last years. I have had the pleasure of butting heads with some fine gentlemen that I am very unlikely to ever meet in person. Yet I have been privvy to their highs and lows, been granted knowledge of information that only close friends would be, and been able to divulge stuff that I'd have thought outside my comfort zone, before this game.
So matrix may be making games for grognards, but compaired to the type of people you tend to find in other multiplay arenas, the ones who gravitate to this and other games matrix make, seem to be fine folk. Probably an unplanned for, but welcome outcome of their productions.
If it costs me an extra wheelbarrow full of New Zealand dollars, well then so be it.

[jeffk3510]

I will simply buy it, not tell, and enjoy.  When she asks, I will tell her it is a new game, and tell her I have had it for a while, and have been enjoying ever since. 

Then slowly, over the next few months, the cc bill will begin to rise with entries such as.... Target $134.55, Kohls $124.99, JC Penny's $ 165.98, Von Maur $365.49 ..... and so on.   

My investment of well under $100 will laugh at her attempt to tell me that was "too much to spend on your lil' hobby". 

Hell, I've been paying for her hobby since I met her..... [:-]

[Buck Beach]

ORIGINAL: aprezto

I love that I can use the wife's 'price per wear' arguement justifying the cost of the new pair of manatee skin boots and tiger fur jacket, with WitP and beat her hands down.
Of course, she doesn't think the arguement is valid because the low price per use is indicative of the time I have wasted with 'that bloody game'.
No one else here seems to have raised the friendships you strike up while playing a game that can last years. I have had the pleasure of butting heads with some fine gentlemen that I am very unlikely to ever meet in person. Yet I have been privvy to their highs and lows, been granted knowledge of information that only close friends would be, and been able to divulge stuff that I'd have thought outside my comfort zone, before this game.
So matrix may be making games for grognards, but compaired to the type of people you tend to find in other multiplay arenas, the ones who gravitate to this and other games matrix make, seem to be fine folk. Probably an unplanned for, but welcome outcome of their productions.
If it costs me an extra wheelbarrow full of New Zealand dollars, well then so be it.

I have had the crap kicked out of me in this recession. Now I am living off of SSI and savings and going in tho hole about $500 per month. I have dropped high speed INTERNET and cable and cut back in many other ways, including living in a trailer park trash apartment. Momma however is complexly obvious to the situation no mater how I try to explain it to her. She continues to take her trips to Mexico to spend time with her family buy Avon and she definitely gets all the perks of all the holidays (fool that I am). Me however has forgone birthday, Christmas and Father's day but this dog will have its day.

I will go over to my friends the day it is released and use his cable high speed to down load AE and feel no guilt for having done so.

[Chad Harrison]

Geez, your gone over the weekend and come back to find everyone freaking out [:D]

Thanks for starting this thread Vettim89 as I agree 100% with everything you said. When AE costs less than a single night in a hotel, or 1 1/2 fuel ups at the pump, or a nice dinner, I fail to see the problem with its price. The value for what you are getting outweighs any reasonable price they ask. And that price is very, very reasonable.

Once again, kudos to Matrix and congrats to Henderson Field for getting their labor of love to the finish line!

Chad

[Barb]

I am strongly waiting to plung into AE as soon as it is out. Even if it had cost set at 150€ - I will most probably have some deep thoughts and buy it anyway! [:D]

Thanks to Matrix Games and Henderson Field Designs.

[John Lansford]

Compared to my hobbies (woodworking, history and computer gaming), my wife outspends me on her interests by about 5:1.  The last computer game I purchased was Fallout 3 and that was nearly a year ago, while she's purchased a sewing machine, updated her computer, picked up some reference books (on sale but still), bought a toaster for her English muffins, and some things for her 75 gallon turtle tank.  She is already 100% on board me buying this game and if it were $100 I doubt she'd even blink.
 
She knows I don't complain about her purchases, she'd better not gripe about mine...

[viberpol]

ORIGINAL: John Lansford
for her 75 gallon turtle tank. 

Erm... (a no native speaker question).... A "turtle tank"? What is it? [&:]

Will this equipment be included in AE? [:D]