US entry question

[brian brian]

while this is one of those semi-interesting theoretical WiF questions - "what happens if we crash rule A into rule B?", and the computer has to be able to handle those, I think it is of interest _only_ on the theoretical and computer coding angles, because this would be extremely stupid Allied play. Steve's original suggestion of aligning the Netherlands to France is more applicable to Free France, and this does have some good upsides in those games where Free France has been created before Germany is at war with the Netherlands. I type this more for the observers who are wondering what kind of crazy talk is this, a Vichy Netherlands East Indies? It is theoretically possible in the rules, but that doesn't mean you will ever see it happen playing against rational opponents.

[Extraneous]

If Vichy is installed the NEI could become Free French.
 

ORIGINAL:  Wiffe-RAW-7.0.pdf
 
All other French territories and minor countries may be aligned with either Vichy France or Free France.
 
17.2 Determine control
 
Roll a die for each of the other administration groups to determine who controls it. A group becomes controlled by the (Free) French player if the roll is within the range shown on this chart. Otherwise, it remains controlled by Vichy France:
 
All other territories & minors 9–10

 
 
 
Regardless of the NEI’s controller the rules specify that the NEI no longer supplies resources to Japan.
 

ORIGINAL:  Wiffe-RAW-7.0.pdf
 
13. Embargo on strategic materials - The US only convoys 3 resources to Japan per turn instead of 4. This takes effect from this step. Two of the resources must still be oil resources. Japan no longer needs to supply the USA with a build point.
 
23. Freeze Japanese assets - This entry option can only be chosen if you have already chosen entry option 13. The US only needs to supply Japan with 2 resources a turn in this and later turns. Both must be oil resources.
 
31. Oil embargo - This entry option can only be chosen if you have already chosen entry option 23. Japan no longer receives any resources from the US or from the Netherlands East Indies. You need no longer maintain a convoy chain to Japan.

 

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: brian brian

while this is one of those semi-interesting theoretical WiF questions - "what happens if we crash rule A into rule B?", and the computer has to be able to handle those, I think it is of interest _only_ on the theoretical and computer coding angles, because this would be extremely stupid Allied play. Steve's original suggestion of aligning the Netherlands to France is more applicable to Free France, and this does have some good upsides in those games where Free France has been created before Germany is at war with the Netherlands. I type this more for the observers who are wondering what kind of crazy talk is this, a Vichy Netherlands East Indies? It is theoretically possible in the rules, but that doesn't mean you will ever see it happen playing against rational opponents.

I'm not so sure. This is one of those "thinking-outside-of-the-box" strategies but not so radical as FREX "No USA in Europe".

NEI has a 40% chance of going FF, since it's on the Asian Map (7-10). If Germany is going for a French Surrender, then for sure it goes FF. FF can just lend two Oil back to the CW. Eventually Japan has to DoW FF and must think about just doing that and leaving the CW DoW until after war with the U.S. because of the big U.S. entry hits to do both.

If NEI goes Vichy then the CW loses two oil but once the Oil Embargo is passed, Japan essentially loses four.

This might be a good idea combined with an early Oil Embargo strategy by the U.S.

[brian brian]

the CW also loses ten CPs, a TRS, miscellaneous light SCS, and a nice little submarine all just for the thrill of doing something radical, 60% of the time. This naval force will also largely be immobilized once Germany crosses the Belgian border until Germany takes Paris, and would never stack with the CW, move CW units, nor base in a CW territory; and you will never know Germany's Vichy policy at the time of Netherlands DoW. Have never seen this happen and don't really expect to but if an Allied opponent wants to make the game different on a lark, I'd suggest they go for it.

for me, skipping a German DoW until concurrent with the Japanese one and then going for a higher risk strategy in Belgium gives you the high reward of the CW economic empire being more tightly stretched for a while. but then I also don't like a Japanese DoW on the CW before the USA because you will regret that with each US O-Chit raining down on you later.

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: brian brian

the CW also loses ten CPs, a TRS, miscellaneous light SCS, and a nice little submarine all just for the thrill of doing something radical, 60% of the time. This naval force will also largely be immobilized once Germany crosses the Belgian border until Germany takes Paris, and would never stack with the CW, move CW units, nor base in a CW territory; and you will never know Germany's Vichy policy at the time of Netherlands DoW. Have never seen this happen and don't really expect to but if an Allied opponent wants to make the game different on a lark, I'd suggest they go for it.

for me, skipping a German DoW until concurrent with the Japanese one and then going for a higher risk strategy in Belgium gives you the high reward of the CW economic empire being more tightly stretched for a while. but then I also don't like a Japanese DoW on the CW before the USA because you will regret that with each US O-Chit raining down on you later.

Good point about the ships, but I've never seen the sub as I guess we don't use that countersheet. The SCS are lucky to escape the homeland because you want to get the CONVs and so set them up in NEI. As for the TRS, for the number of times I've been hosed realizing I can't transport the Nigerian 4-2 or a US unit with it, I've wanted to sink it myself. [:@] The biggest issue are the CONVs and if they go FF, then they aren't lost. AAMOF it is great having ships to move with FF Navals rather than always having to do a Naval with the CW.

If I was trying this I could get the ships to places likely to be FF, although along with an early Embargo strategy, I'd consider taking the BBs out of France and making an NEI Vichy into an 80% proposition - but raises the odds of no FF.

[composer99]

Extraneous: You are correct in that a neutral Netherlands must halt shipping oil to Japan.

However, if the Netherlands is aligned to France upon German declaration of war and the NEI are subsequently turned Vichy there are three things to consider:
- First, the Netherlands (European home country) is conquered (by Germany), not neutral.
- Second, the NEI is controlled by Vichy France, not by the Netherlands.
- Third, there is an explicit rules citation indicating when Vichy France may lend resources & build points to other major powers (or as someone else put it, rule A crashes into Rule B and we have to sort out the wreck) which could override the embargo rule (since active major powers are not restricted the way neutral minor powers are).

In MWiF I would have to say that I would dismiss out of hand the notion of aligning the Netherlands to France prior to Vichy declaration. In addition to the lost convoys and fleet elements, there is a resource in Dutch Guyana that I would not dare to have go Vichy French since it shortens CW convoy lines to bring that resource in rather than one from, say, India (or alternatively you may now ship that resource to go to a factory and ship oil that was previously factory-bound to be saved for oil purposes).

[obermeister]

Well, I've got a question in to Harry about the Oil Embargo effects on a Vichy Controlled NEI.  And even if it's not smart play, it is something I think you'd want MWIF to be able to handle correctly, so figuring out what the correct answer is, is important to both MWIF and to RL games. 

If I had to guess, I'd say that the embargo wouldn't apply to a vichy NEI.  Of course the oil embargo rule doesn't say the embargo doesn't apply if NEI is controlled by a power on your side.  Let's go even crazier, and say that all active allied powers declined to control Netherlands.  In that case she would be completely conquered, and NEI would be under German control.  It really strains credulity to imagine that Adolf would honor a US imposed embargo against Japan.  But Harry's answers have often surprised me in the past.

I don't think it's addressed in the FAQ (at least a search for "embargo" comes up empty).

[obermeister]

ORIGINAL: composer99

Extraneous: You are correct in that a neutral Netherlands must halt shipping oil to Japan.

- Third, there is an explicit rules citation indicating when Vichy France may lend resources & build points to other major powers (or as someone else put it, rule A crashes into Rule B and we have to sort out the wreck) which could override the embargo rule (since active major powers are not restricted the way neutral minor powers are).

Well, if major powers are not restricted regarding resource lending like minor powers, then I would think that if Germany attacks the Netherlands and the Netherlands becomes Commonwealth controlled, then the Commonwealth could immediately halt NEI oil shipments to the Japanese. Maybe this is what happens? If so I would think the Japanese player might heavily discourage Germany from attacking the Netherlands in 1940.

[Extraneous]

Actually only major powers may give/trade/lend resources and/or build points to one another.
 
 
 
Minor powers that are aligned or have been DOWed are controlled by a major power. This includes setup, movement, activity limits, resources, and etc.
 
 
 
Normally when a controlling major power is conquered the minor powers under its control would just revert to their neutral status. 
 
According to the rules when Vichy is established any minor power that was controlled France has a chance to become Free French or Vichy.
 
 
 

ORIGINAL:  Wiffe-RAW-7.0.pdf
 
[font=arial]Its progress towards war is governed by the number of markers it has in 4 pools, the US entry pools and the US tension pools. By manipulating the markers in these pools, the US will be able to go to war with the Axis powers once it has judiciously applied pressure to control war-like Axis tendencies.[/font]
[font=arial] [/font]
[font=arial]

[/font]
[font=arial] [/font]
U.S. entry option: #31. Oil embargo reflects applied political pressure by the U.S. on the NEI in an attempt to control Japans war-like tendencies.
 

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Extraneous
Actually only major powers may give/trade/lend resources and/or build points to one another.



Minor powers that are aligned or have been DOWed are controlled by a major power. This includes setup, movement, activity limits, resources, and etc.



Normally when a controlling major power is conquered the minor powers under its control would just revert to their neutral status. 

Whan Major Power is conquered, the Minor countries it still control are kept under his control. This is called "incomplete conquest".

For example, when Italy gets conquered, if Italian Somaliland was still Italian controlled, then Italy is only incompletely conquered and Italian Somaliland is still italian controlled. Italy can even move its home country there.


You might confuse with the case where a country (major or minor) is conquered, and only have territories left under its control. In that case this is called "complete conquest", and the remaining territories revert to neutrality, unless someone has unit in there.

For example, when Greece is conquered, Crete (territory) becomes neutral if there are no unit in Crete.

If then someone wants to enter Crete, he will have to DoW Crete that will be considered as a Minor Country for the DoW purpose.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: composer99
Extraneous: You are correct in that a neutral Netherlands must halt shipping oil to Japan.

I don't understand this Christopher.

[obermeister]

I think the core issue we are having here is does who controls NEI have any bearing on the US oil embargo.  Obviously if Japan controls NEI then they can use its oil.  If Germany or Vichy France controls NEI, are they prevented by a US oil embargo from shipping the NEI oil to Japan?

On the other side of the equation, is a Commonwealth controlled NEI obligated to continue trading NEI oil to Japan before they come to war.  What about after that?

[lavisj]

Well, as far as I understand the rules a trade agreement can only be dissolived when the condition to dissolve it is met. Those are either:
1. Explicited in the minor country section
2. When war happens between the two powers
3. When US entry change the trade agreement.

What is common sens is that if an allied power controls the NEI, the trade agreement remains in place until oil embargo is taken, in the same way that Russia can not change its trade agreement with Germany until the conditions to break the pact are met.
As far as when an axis power controls the NEI (I have yet to see it... the most likely candidate is probably Vichy France), then I would think the trade agreement remains in place and is still bound by the oil embargo option.

The alternative is actually quite game unbalancing in my opinion. If a Vichy controlled NEI would stop giving its ressources to Japan, then the allies should always align Netherland to France as there are then 2 options: Most likely NEI becomes Vichy and Japan looses 2 oils/turn (huge), or it goes Free France and Japan has to DoW FF to get to the oil after the embargo (makes the US player happy).

On a WIfzen, it is not difficult to imagine that Vhichy administration would continue to honor a previous agreement between the Netherland and Japan, as it is not difficult to imagine that a neutral United States could still pressure Vichy into stoping to give its oil to Japan.

Now another interestin question. If NEI is aligned to Vichy, does the NEI still supply the CW with its 2 remaining oil as long as Vichy is neutral?

Just my 2 cents.

Jerome

[sajbalk]

The rules are helpful here. Under 5.1, "[Trade agreements] continue until either country is completely conquered or as specifed below."

"Netherlands must supply Japan with 2 oil resources a turn. This continues until Japan is at war with either the Netherlands or the CW, or the US embargoes oil sales to Japan. A neutral Netherlands must supply the CW with all its remaining oil."

Conspicuous by its absence is a requirement for neutrality for the Japanese agreement.

If Netherlands is aligned to France, it may become Vichy. If Vichy, it will be neutral and give 2 resources per turn to Japan or active and give all its resources per turn to Japan. If Free, Japan will have to DOW ASAP before the oil embargo.

[Extraneous]

What composer99 is saying is the trade agreement is with the Netherlands not the NEI.

But all Netherlands oil is in the NEI.

ORIGINAL: WiFFE-RAW-7.o.pdf

Netherlands

The Netherlands must supply Japan with 2 oil resources a turn. This continues until Japan is at war with either the Netherlands or the Commonwealth, or the US embargoes oil sales to Japan (see 13.3.2, entry option 31).

A neutral Netherlands must supply the CW with all its remaining oil.

ORIGINAL: composer99

However, if the Netherlands is aligned to France upon German declaration of war and the NEI are subsequently turned Vichy there are three things to consider:

France cannot align the Netherlands.

ORIGINAL: WiFFE-RAW-7.o.pdf

If a neutral minor can align with your major power (see 19.6, 19.7 and 19.8), you can declare that it is aligning with you. You can only declare one minor aligned with your major power in each friendly impulse. Your major power controls a minor that aligns with it exactly as if another major power had declared war on it.

This is why which minor countries are aligned and which are controlled is important.  

ORIGINAL: WiFFE-RAW-7.o.pdf

Example: Germany is conquered while Germany still controls a conquered Norway. Because Germany controls no aligned home countries, Germany has been completely conquered. All German land and aircraft units are removed from the game. Norway reverts to neutrality because no major power has any influence there. All German naval units become controlled by Japan. You dice for any that are now in Allied controlled hexes. Any that survive must rebase. Unless there are Japanese controlled ports within double the range of these units, they will be destroyed.

France assumed control of the Netherlands when Germany DOWed the Netherlands.

ORIGINAL: WiFFE-RAW-7.o.pdf

You now allocate control of minor countries declared war on this step, to a major power on the other side (see 19.2), in order of declaration. The minor country is at war with everyone its controlling major power is at war with, as well as the major powers that declared war on it.

Whoever takes control of the minor sets up its forces immediately (see 19.4).

Axis minor countries that can be aligned: Argentina, Bulgaria, Finland, Hungary, Rumania, Persia and Iraq, Siam, Spain, Sweden, Turkey, and Yugoslavia.

Allied minor countries that can be aligned: Brazil, Bulgaria, Central America, Mexico, Mongolia, and Yugoslavia.

[obermeister]

ORIGINAL: sajbalk

The rules are helpful here. Under 5.1, "[Trade agreements] continue until either country is completely conquered or as specifed below."

"Netherlands must supply Japan with 2 oil resources a turn. This continues until Japan is at war with either the Netherlands or the CW, or the US embargoes oil sales to Japan. A neutral Netherlands must supply the CW with all its remaining oil."

Conspicuous by its absence is a requirement for neutrality for the Japanese agreement.

If Netherlands is aligned to France, it may become Vichy. If Vichy, it will be neutral and give 2 resources per turn to Japan or active and give all its resources per turn to Japan. If Free, Japan will have to DOW ASAP before the oil embargo.

Based solely on 5.1, I don't understand why an active-Vichy controlled NEI would give all resources to Japan. The only things mentioned in there are 1. Japan at war with either Netherlands or CW, and 2. US oil embargo.

And as long as CW doesn't declare war on Vichy, a Vichy controlled NEI would still supply the remaining oil to CW, based solely on 5.1. If CW declares war on Vichy, then CW wouldn't get the oil, but I don't see how that would lead to the Japanese getting all the oil in the NEI.

[obermeister]

France cannot align the Netherlands.

You are correct, the distinction is important. I hadn't thought about that before. I may have been careless in using "controls" as a synonym for "aligned with". However, I'm not sure if the distinction is relevant to our discussion of who can use the NEI oil and how relevant the control of NEI is to who gets the oil or is subject to the oil embargo.

[sajbalk]

Extraneous, you are correct. However, you will see many posters, including myself, fail to make the distinction between aligning and assuming control.

[sajbalk]

ORIGINAL: obermeister

ORIGINAL: sajbalk

The rules are helpful here. Under 5.1, "[Trade agreements] continue until either country is completely conquered or as specifed below."

"Netherlands must supply Japan with 2 oil resources a turn. This continues until Japan is at war with either the Netherlands or the CW, or the US embargoes oil sales to Japan. A neutral Netherlands must supply the CW with all its remaining oil."

Conspicuous by its absence is a requirement for neutrality for the Japanese agreement.

If Netherlands is aligned to France, it may become Vichy. If Vichy, it will be neutral and give 2 resources per turn to Japan or active and give all its resources per turn to Japan. If Free, Japan will have to DOW ASAP before the oil embargo.

Based solely on 5.1, I don't understand why an active-Vichy controlled NEI would give all resources to Japan. The only things mentioned in there are 1. Japan at war with either Netherlands or CW, and 2. US oil embargo.

And as long as CW doesn't declare war on Vichy, a Vichy controlled NEI would still supply the remaining oil to CW, based solely on 5.1. If CW declares war on Vichy, then CW wouldn't get the oil, but I don't see how that would lead to the Japanese getting all the oil in the NEI.

Under 17.4, Vichy France would give its NEI resources to Japan only if active and hostile. However, 5.1 provides for the NEI oil to the CW while the Netherlands is neutral.

Thus:
At start: 2 oil to CW, 2 oil to Japan.
GER DOW Neth, France controls Neth: 2 oil to France, 2 oil to Japan.
GER conquers Neth: no change
GER Vichies France, and NEI goes Vichy: 2 oil to Japan, 2 oil to CW
US does oil embargo: 2 oil to CW
CW DOW Vichy: 0 oil to anyone
CW makes Vichy hostile: Vichy may give resources to any axis power.

I still do not like how this turns out; seems like a good way to screw Japan. Rules should say that oil embargo does not apply IF NEI is Vichy.

[Extraneous]

ORIGINAL: sajbalk

Thus:
At start: 2 oil to CW, 2 oil to Japan.
GER DOW Neth, France controls Neth: 2 oil to France, 2 oil to Japan.
GER conquers Neth: no change
GER Vichies France, and NEI goes Vichy: 2 oil to Japan, 2 oil to CW
US does oil embargo: 2 oil to CW
CW DOW Vichy: 0 oil to anyone
CW makes Vichy hostile: Vichy may give resources to any axis power.

I still do not like how this turns out; seems like a good way to screw Japan. Rules should say that oil embargo does not apply IF NEI is Vichy.

Shouldn't it be...

At start: 2 oil to CW, 2 oil to Japan.
GER DOW Neth, France controls Neth: 2 oil to France, 2 oil to Japan.
GER conquers Neth: no change
GER Vichies France, and theNetherlands and NEI go Vichy: 2 oil to Japan, 2 oil to CW
US does oil embargo: 4 oil to CW
CW DOW Vichy: 0 oil to anyone
CW makes Vichy hostile: Vichy may give resources to any axis power.


Because: A neutral Netherlands must supply the CW with all its remaining oil.