US entry question

[obermeister]

Here's an interesting rules as written / as coded question. I'm not sure that the rules are real specific about what happens in this case.

1. Germany and Japan are at war with the Commonwealth. Netherlands are neutral.

2. Germany declares war on the Netherlands. Commonwealth takes control (aligns) the Netherlands.

Does the US get to roll only for the entry effect of Germany declaring war? Or does this also count as a Japanese declaration of war? More critically, does the US get an extra chit each turn from Japan being at war with the Netherlands?

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: obermeister

Here's an interesting rules as written / as coded question. I'm not sure that the rules are real specific about what happens in this case.

1. Germany and Japan are at war with the Commonwealth. Netherlands are neutral.

2. Germany declares war on the Netherlands. Commonwealth takes control (aligns) the Netherlands.

Does the US get to roll only for the entry effect of Germany declaring war? Or does this also count as a Japanese declaration of war? More critically, does the US get an extra chit each turn from Japan being at war with the Netherlands?

I'd say :
No US Entry roll for Japan, but no surprise effect either. This one I'm not sure.
No extra chit either, as there was no DoW fro Japan to the Netherlands. This one I'm less sure.

[obermeister]

Does it strike you as odd that Japan could avoid a massive US entry hit in this way?

Especially consider what would happen if Japan had DCW'd the Commonwealth if the Netherlands had been aligned PRIOR to that point. According to 9.2 in RAW: "a declaration of war on a major power is also a declaration of war on every minor country that major power has aligned", so there would be a US entry effect for Netherlands in that case.

So if 1. Germany DCW Netherlands, 2. Japan DCW Commonwealth, there is a US Entry for both commmonwealth and Netherlands for Japan. But if 1 and 2 are reversed then there is only US entry for Commonwealth and not Netherlands.

That doesn't seem broken to you?

[sajbalk]

Situation: Germany and Japan at war with CW. Germany DOW Netherlands; CW aligns Netherlands.

First, Japan did not DOW the Netherlands, so no USE roll for that.
Second, the US does get the German entry roll, a 3, I think.
Third, there is no extra US chit each turn. The US gets a chit IF Japan has DOWed someone. Per (1) Japan did not.

Is this unfair for the Allies? Well, Japan is already at war with CW which, assuming Japan DOWed, is 28 plus 1 chit per turn. The Allies, in this instance, really should have aligned Netherlands with France or Free France, or even an active Russia. This will ensure problems for the Axis and/or additional chits for the Allies.

[sajbalk]

ORIGINAL: obermeister

Does it strike you as odd that Japan could avoid a massive US entry hit in this way?

Especially consider what would happen if Japan had DCW'd the Commonwealth if the Netherlands had been aligned PRIOR to that point. According to 9.2 in RAW: "a declaration of war on a major power is also a declaration of war on every minor country that major power has aligned", so there would be a US entry effect for Netherlands in that case.

So if 1. Germany DCW Netherlands, 2. Japan DCW Commonwealth, there is a US Entry for both commmonwealth and Netherlands for Japan. But if 1 and 2 are reversed then there is only US entry for Commonwealth and not Netherlands.

That doesn't seem broken to you?

I think you are misinterpreting the rule. If Japan DOWs the CW which has previously aligned the Netherlands, there is only 1 USE effect, for a DOW on the CW. You cannot DOW seperately a previously aligned minor. For example, if Japan DOWs the CW, there is not a seperate entry role for Japan also DOWing a previoulsy aligned Belgium.

As to your second question, the Allies should align Netherlands to France if Germany DOWs it after Japan is at war with the CW. This forces a Japanese DOW on France.

[obermeister]

I'm just reading the rule as it is written. If a "declaration of war on a major power is also a declaration of war on every minor country that major power has aligned", I'm not seeing anything in there that says there wouldn't be a US entry effect for those DoW's on those minors.

[micheljq]

Japan already at war with Commonwealth, yes 1 more U.S. chit per turn already. It won't be long before U.S. enters the war anyway. Assuming that Japan did DOW Commonwealth and not the reverse.

[Extraneous]

micheljg is correct.
 

Original: WiFFE-RAW-7.0.pdf
 
20, 31 & 32 Major Power declares war on neutral minor - roll once for each major power declaring war on this minor this impulse.
 
Your major powers can declare war on major powers from the other side or on unaligned minor countries.
 
You can’t declare war on
• any major powers or minor countries on your side; or
• a country you are already at war with; or
• a minor country that is already controlled by a major power on the other side. However, a declaration of war on a major power is also a declaration of war on every minor country aligned to that major power.
 
 
The Netherlands East Indies is a minor country consisting of all the 1939 NEI-controlled hexes in the Bay of Bengal, Bismark Sea, East Indian Ocean, South China Sea and Timor Sea. Its capital is Batavia.

 
The Netherlands is a minor country (RAW7scenario.pdf 29. 1936~1945 World Order of battle), and controls the NEI a minor country (WiFFE-RAW-7.0.pdf).
 
 
power.

Original: wifchart.pdf US ENTRY ACTIONS
 
20. Axis declares war on 7:
Poland, Spain, Turkey or any American country 5 (12)
Belgium, Finland, Rumania, Sweden or Switzerland 5 (8)
Other minor or Vichy France 5 (3)
 
33. Japan declares war on the CW, France or Netherlands (Ja) 3 & 5 (28)
 
3. The USA also picks 1 extra chit a turn for each action (except conquests by surrender). It must go into the marked entry pool.
5. Rolled once per city, major power, neutral minor country or search.
7. Place chit in Ja pool if Japan declares war, the Ge/It pool otherwise.
 

 
The number in () is the roll needed for a chit for the Japan pool or Ge/It pool.
 
Germany has made a DOW on the Netherlands (#20 Die roll 3).
Japan has made a DOW on the CW (#33 die roll 28).
 
Italy may DOW the Netherlands (#20 Die roll 3) or the NEI (#20 Die roll 3).
 
The CW is at war with Japan and has aligned the Netherlands and its minor country the NEI.
 
There is no additional US entry action for Japan because the CW has aligned the Netherlands and its minor country the NEI.
 

[Extraneous]

My question is:
 
If the Japanese player had not DOWed the CW.
 
Could the Japanese player DOW the unaligned minor country the NEI (#20 die roll 3) without DOWing the unaligned minor country the Netherlands (#33 die roll 28)?[font=verdana] [/font]

[brian brian]

the NEI is never unaligned. it is aligned to the Netherlands at start, and the Netherlands controlling major power after a DoW on the Netherlands.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

My question is:

If the Japanese player had not DOWed the CW.

Could the Japanese player DOW the unaligned minor country the NEI (#20 die roll 3) without DOWing the unaligned minor country the Netherlands (#33 die roll 28)?[font=verdana] [/font]

No, same as you can't DoW Burma without Dowing the CW, or Algeria without DoWing France.
The NEI is never "non aligned".

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: obermeister

I'm just reading the rule as it is written. If a "declaration of war on a major power is also a declaration of war on every minor country that major power has aligned", I'm not seeing anything in there that says there wouldn't be a US entry effect for those DoW's on those minors.

The FAQ says :

***************************************
Q9.2-3> One DOW on a major power is also a DOW on each controlled minor. And only one roll is made on the US entry table for the one DOW on the major power.

Correct. Date 30/01/1998
***************************************

[obermeister]

Ok, thanks for clearing that up.  What about the following situation:

1.  France has not been vichied and is at war with Germany. 
2   Germany DCW Netherlands, France takes control of Netherlands. 
3.  Germany conquers Netherlands (but not NEI) and Vichies France.

At this point NEI would either go Vichy or Free France, depending on the Vichy variant you are playing with.  Say for the sake of argument that it goes Vichy.

What are Japan's options regarding NEI at this point?  There is an option for Japan occupying Vichy-controlled French Indochina or Vichy Madagascar.  Would Japan need to declare war on Vichy France to take control of NEI?

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: obermeister

Ok, thanks for clearing that up.  What about the following situation:

1.  France has not been vichied and is at war with Germany. 
2   Germany DCW Netherlands, France takes control of Netherlands. 
3.  Germany conquers Netherlands (but not NEI) and Vichies France.

At this point NEI would either go Vichy or Free France, depending on the Vichy variant you are playing with.  Say for the sake of argument that it goes Vichy.

What are Japan's options regarding NEI at this point?  There is an option for Japan occupying Vichy-controlled French Indochina or Vichy Madagascar.  Would Japan need to declare war on Vichy France to take control of NEI?

No. Vichy France and Japan are on the same side.

I would think that Vichy could create a Trade agreement with Japan and send its oil to Japan. Also, Japan could put a HQ in NEI and then bring in more units under foreign troop commitments.

But I am not sure about all of this.

[composer99]

It would, but it can't, as you can't declare war on powers on your own side.

The real question is, what happens to the NEI oil? Does anyone (Japan/CW) get any, and if so, can Japan get cut off by the embargo?

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: obermeister

Ok, thanks for clearing that up. What about the following situation:

1. France has not been vichied and is at war with Germany.
2 Germany DCW Netherlands, France takes control of Netherlands.
3. Germany conquers Netherlands (but not NEI) and Vichies France.

ORIGINAL: composer99

It would, but it can't, as you can't declare war on powers on your own side.

The real question is, what happens to the NEI oil? Does anyone (Japan/CW) get any, and if so, can Japan get cut off by the embargo?

At point 2. above, the NEI keeps on providing oil to Japan
RAW 5.1 says
"The Netherlands must supply Japan with 2 oil resources a turn. This continues until Japan is at war with either the Netherlands or the Commonwealth, or the US embargoes oil sales to Japan (see 13.3.2, entry option 31).
A neutral Netherlands must supply the CW with all its remaining oil."
So even French controlled, the NEI still lend 2 oil to Japan.
The CW does not get the oil anymore, France does.

At point 3. above, if NEI goes Vichy, then the controler of Vichy (Germany for example) can decide that Vichy have a trade agreement with Japan, and give Japan 4 oil if Vichy is active (non neutral) and hostile.
RAW 5. :
"You can only give resources (or build points) if you are an active major power and you can only give them to another active major power (exceptions: Trade agreements ~ see 5.1, US entry options ~ see 13.3.2 and lending to Vichy France ~ see 17.4). Vichy France must also be hostile to lend to other major powers (see 17.4)."

And RAW 17.4 :
"Vichy France can only give resources and build points to an Axis major power if she is hostile to an Allied major power (exception, see 5.1). The Axis major power that installed the Vichy government can always lend resources and build points to Vichy France."

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: obermeister
What are Japan's options regarding NEI at this point? 

They still receive the oil as long as the US don't embargoe it and they are not at war with the Netherlands or the CW. See 5.1.

There is an option for Japan occupying Vichy-controlled French Indochina or Vichy Madagascar. 

There are close to none. Until Vichy is collapsed.

RAW 17.4
"No Axis units may enter Vichy controlled hexes while Vichy France is neutral (except to collapse her administration, see below). While Vichy France is active, only units belonging to the major power which installed Vichy France may enter Vichy controlled administration groups, and even then must satisfy the foreign troop commitment rules (see 18.2) to enter each administration group.
If Vichy France is active and hostile to any major power, units controlled by the major power that installed the Vichy government can enter any Vichy controlled hex without having to satisfy the foreign troop commitment limits."

Would Japan need to declare war on Vichy France to take control of NEI?

Japan can't DoW Vichy :

RAW 17.4 :
"Vichy France can only declare war on major powers it is hostile to. There is no US entry effect for this act. Vichy France may not declare war on minor countries.
Axis major powers can’t declare war on Vichy France. "

[sajbalk]

There are USE actions that Japan can take. Occupying a Vichy controlled Indochina and Madagascar is legal but has a USE cost. Better to wait until the US is in the war, then do it.

[obermeister]

They still receive the oil as long as the US don't embargoe it and they are not at war with the Netherlands or the CW. See 5.1.

Ok, that was going to be my next question: a vichy-controlled NEI is still subject to the US oil embargo. Wow. That's very interesting. So, post embargo Japan isn't going to see a drop of NEI oil until vichy gets collapsed.

[sajbalk]

ORIGINAL: obermeister

They still receive the oil as long as the US don't embargoe it and they are not at war with the Netherlands or the CW. See 5.1.

Ok, that was going to be my next question: a vichy-controlled NEI is still subject to the US oil embargo. Wow. That's very interesting. So, post embargo Japan isn't going to see a drop of NEI oil until vichy gets collapsed.

With all due respect, this might well be a question for HR. If NEI is Vichy, does US oil embargo impact it?