How many other BBs were prevented by the 3 Yamatos?

[oldman45]

I am with Terminus on that one. If the CV fan boys won out, as you pointed out in an earlier post, they would be building more CV's. I would look at what their technology was in 34 - 36 and build more of them.

Since we are assuming the CV fan boys won, then they would plan for more airgroups. They would have modified their existing training program to create 2 or more air groups. My guess the army would have lost some squadrons due to limitations of air craft production. I think its viable. I don't know much about the jap CV's so I can't suggest what hulls they would build.

[Akos Gergely]

Compare 1934 a/c performance with a/c performance in 1944. And then look at what did it take to sink Musashi with 1944 tech. 5 CV/CVLs with 200+ attack a/c in 2-3 attacks were able to down her and that is with torpex filled torps. In 1934 the avarage torpedo bomber was much worse then the TBD Devastator and look at it how they faired at Midway (with their 33knot torps against 30+ knot speed ships) and it was in 1942! Dive bombing was also in it's infancy still.

So IMHO the CV was largely a scouting unit with limited strike capability up until 1940 in the USN, probably 1-2 years earlier for the IJN. And it was not until the end of the war when with radar directed CAP they've reached full ptential. Up till that point a CV was way too fragile.

So probably my wording was not proper, in 1934-1936 the CV was not counted with as the main striking unit/centerpiece/back-bone of a fleet - it was still in a support role.

And saying that history proved later otherwise is with too much hindsight - nobody could foresee the rapid increase in a/c performance from 1940 onwards (partly thanks to the war itself).

So BTW do you plan on a mod???

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: Historiker

All completed as well 1 more BB and 2 more Shokakus building? When completed? late 42, mid 43, late 43 mid 44?

The Japanese tried to go both ways, starting with "Fleet carrier" designs of the Shokaku type which then evolved to Taiho. They also returned to the Hiryu type concept with the Unryu's which were lighter, smaller and cheaper and designed initially to form anti merchant strike forces. (though in reality they would probably have been used for typical fleet engagements as were Junyo and Hiyo.)

Eliminating Yamato, Musashi, Shinano and no. 111 would probably allow at least 4-5 of the projected ships to be completed. IIRC, they had to build a new slip for Musashi so simply cancelling those super-battleships won't make that huge a difference if one is talking mainly capital ships (either carriers or BB's) as both require the biggest slips and resources.

[Dili]

1-1,5 half . Can it uses Nagato 16"? Still tools around for it? Or is needed a new gun in 15" class? if 16" are enough then the resources made for 18" including Kashino can be employed in other places.

More BB's also imply more crews needed, more machinery.

[ny59giants]

If your going to justify having the CVs being built vs Yamato Class BBs, how more support ships (CA, CLAA, & DD) will be needed as the CV centered fleet replaces the BB centered fleet??

[stuman]

So 1 Yamato might equal 2 smaller BB. Then it might equal 7 to 8 CA/CL, or ( based on tonnage ) 25 DD ? Seems like the best you can do is make some good estimates and go from there.

[DuckofTindalos]

And remember, "equals" means "in materials". Time is another matter entirely. You couldn't build two 40,000-ton battleships in the same time it took to build one 70,000-ton super battleship unless you had two separate building facilities available at the same time.

[stuman]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

And remember, "equals" means "in materials". Time is another matter entirely. You couldn't build two 40,000-ton battleships in the same time it took to build one 70,000-ton super battleship unless you had two separate building facilities available at the same time.

Ah yes, good point of course.

[Historiker]

IIRC it was Yamamoto who tried it for the first time in the winter menuevers of 1940 what happens when all carriers act combined. Before, they were attached to other groups and consequently divided.
The Japs only focussed on CVs as they saw them as the only area they may compete with the USN. so you can never expect to have them giveing up the dscicive battle...
On the other hand, there won't be any mod by me without a lot of BBs! All hail the Battleship! [&o]


To the slips:
Building a slip isn't that complex. IIRC, the slip for the gigantiv H-39 was expected to be completed within 15 months. Its rather the additional industry, but in my mod, the Japs already built a number of additional capital ships as replacements in the early 1930, so there was time to expand these - if there was money...

[DuckofTindalos]

"Building a slip isn't that complex"????????

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

"Building a slip isn't that complex"????????

Just ask Henry Kaiser. What you don't get is Aryan efficiency. American ships were a lot more expensive than comparable UK ships, even though UK shipbuilders were hardly the most modern or efficient.

[DuckofTindalos]

And we're comparing a Liberty ship to a Yamato-class battleship now? Bra-vo...[8|]

[Akos Gergely]

From the Yamatos only Musashi was built on a slipway, Yamato and Shinano were built in huge drydocks. Their launch weight was second only to the liner QE (or QM I don't remember) ever for a slip launched ship up till that point. Quite probably the USN would have built it's 60,500 ton Montanas in drydocks as well (as it was done with BB-66 after her second "keel laying").

[Historiker]

ORIGINAL: herwin

ORIGINAL: Terminus

"Building a slip isn't that complex"????????

Just ask Henry Kaiser. What you don't get is Aryan efficiency. American ships were a lot more expensive than comparable UK ships, even though UK shipbuilders were hardly the most modern or efficient.

How should I understand this?

[DuckofTindalos]

You should ignore it.

[Historiker]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

"Building a slip isn't that complex"????????

Well, maybe we understand something different when we talk about the word "slipway"...

[DuckofTindalos]

Well, I might argue that building a slipway for a 70,000-ton battleship could take a while, but it's not done with just the slip, there's also fitting-out facilities to consider. Japan just didn't have the infrastructure or the geography for a big-ass naval building program, and she didn't help herself by wasting time and money on the Yamatos.

[Historiker]

That's why I've written:

Building a slip isn't that complex. IIRC, the slip for the gigantiv H-39 was expected to be completed within 15 months. Its rather the additional industry

What's a slip than a solid pieve of ground with an angle of about 4° to the water and strong enough to carry the weight?

Can you explain me why the huge Japan isn't able to build a slip with a length of 250-300m in such a huge country? of course, it takes water deep enough in front of it (which can be digged out) and enough room for the ship to stop (which can be assisted by the brakeing shields). But apart from that? Enlighten me!
I already wondered how when you (?) once said that the Dutch weren't able to do this as well.

I'm no naval engineer, but I can't see too many differences, so I'm happy for additional informations.

[Historiker]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

You should ignore it.

herwin was always kind and gentle. I defentily want to know what he ment by this...

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: herwin

ORIGINAL: Terminus

"Building a slip isn't that complex"????????

Just ask Henry Kaiser. What you don't get is Aryan efficiency. American ships were a lot more expensive than comparable UK ships, even though UK shipbuilders were hardly the most modern or efficient.

Actually Herwin, you are wrong here. This was wartime construction, where costs are measured in building time and manhours, and the US "blew the doors off" everybody in this regard.

And Kaiser's purpose-built slipways were very complex in the sense they were actual "assembly lines" rather than just a "general purpose" building slip.