H2H - What do you think ?

[Kevin E. Duguay]

Forgot to ask, now that you fixed the Finnish gunboats, how do I? Do I just download HtH again or are you going to post a patch?
Thanks again!:D

[Panzer Leo]

Originally posted by Kevin E. Duguay
Ok Leo here you go!
1. What happend to US airborn companies in 1945. When trying to buy them they were not there. You can buy them in all of 1944 but in Jan 45 they are gone.

An error, when I modeled US paratroopers with the 30 cal MGs in the squad (the "+" platoons). Paras are available now from 45 on.

2.US M39 icon is wrong. should look like M18 Hell cat With no turret.(The same mistake is in the Matrix version 7.1)
3. Anzac Matilda Dozer icon is wrong. Icon shows Matilda Mk1 mineplough. Put a blade on a Matilda II.(Again this exists in the Matrix version)

I need to know if there's a correct icon in the shps. If there are some, I can fix it in the OOB, if not this goes beyond a OOB tweak...If someone knows, please throw the icon numbers in (I will also try to find them in the list...)

4. Russian SU-37. Why not replace this vehicle with the SU-45. Only 1 SU-37 was made but about 100 SU-45 were delivered to the Red Army durring 1941. Chassis was that of ST-3 and STS-5 artillery tractors fitted with light armor. A forward fireing 45mm M1937 ATG was mounted to the rear. The V vehicle was built at the Kharkov Tractor Works. Sorry I have no idea what Russian light armor is. (The SU-37 is also in the Matrix edition 7.1)

Again more then a OOB fix (I would have to make a pic for SU-45). So this has to stay as is, sorry:(

5. Icons for SU-37(Won't have to fix it if you dump it!) and T-27 are mixed up or wrong. Look at them and see what you think. (Same in Matrix Edition)

Think you're right...I swapped them...

6. Nationalist China. Wong icon fo carrier B. I think its suppost to look like a Bren Carrier with an ATR.

Fixed

7. Did'nt find this one yet, but still looking.

I'm sure there is a 7th, so keep up your good work

One last thing is there any chance of changing the icons for the Panther F and Panther II to cammo?

They now have the A-series camo...

Also I miss the cammo halftracks(German OB).

I'm afraid, but you'll have to miss them in the future, too...
I had to choose one, as I banned all double appearence of vehicles because of camo (took precious slots and gave an unfair advantage in purchasing).
As the first SPWs were grey, I took the grey one...

Forgot to ask, now that you fixed the Finnish gunboats, how do I? Do I just download HtH again or are you going to post a patch?

I'm collecting all fixes like yours and will post a patch once I'm done...this will be an OOB patch only, that's why I'm limited on icon and pic issues (adding or new ones).
Will be one quick 320KB download...I'll let you all know, when the patch is ready (but I'm sure there will be quite some issues to come in this thread, so it may take a bit - a few more weeks, I think). This will then be the end of my tweaking on H2H OOBs and therefore my final version...so be sure to ask for changes BEFORE the patch

[Svennemir]

I think this small thing might be important:

The US Thompson SMG has a range of only 2 ! I'm not an expert here, but shouldn't it be 4 or at least 3?

Comparisons:

US Thompson SMG - range 2
SO PPSh SMG - range 4
GE MP38/40 - range 3
UK Sten MkI - range 2
UK StenMk(uhh...) late model - range 3.

The SMGs have already been nerfed a lot since 6.1 in which they might have been too superior, but nerfing then much more than in official 7.1 will not be a good idea I think.

In 7.1 the Thompson has range 4 and better ACC than in H2H.

[Kevin E. Duguay]

Leo, I've sent the same info on to Mike Amos in the hopes that may be he has or is in the process of making the correct icons. Contact him or look for his postings. From what I've seen so far it looks like Mike is going to do some fix it icons for SP WaW v7.1. May be this will help you.
I'll be looking for the updated final version of HtH. Thanks again!

[Panzer Leo]

Originally posted by Svennemir
I think this small thing might be important:

The US Thompson SMG has a range of only 2 ! I'm not an expert here, but shouldn't it be 4 or at least 3?

Comparisons:

US Thompson SMG - range 2
SO PPSh SMG - range 4
GE MP38/40 - range 3
UK Sten MkI - range 2
UK StenMk(uhh...) late model - range 3.

The SMGs have already been nerfed a lot since 6.1 in which they might have been too superior, but nerfing then much more than in official 7.1 will not be a good idea I think.

In 7.1 the Thompson has range 4 and better ACC than in H2H.

As far as my research went, the Thompson was overrated in v7.1.
My rule of thumb for SMG range in H2H is:
the usually given effective range (from multiple sources) +1 hex (50m) is the range in the game.
Most sources give the Thompson an effective range of 50m (less than the Sten MKI with 70-80m). It is often referred to as incredible inaccurate over 50m. It's large bullet gives it the highest HE kill a SMG has in H2H, but also one of the worst ranges...
The PPSH is I think the only SMG with range 4 despite it has a smaller caliber, because the bullet has much more propellant and is said to have fairly good flight caracteristics...

So this was actually intended..if you got sources, that could proof me wrong, please throw them in...

[Svennemir]

But the rounds go further than the range at which they are capable of hitting accurately, and that means a lot for the suppression.

Rifles have ranges of 12 even though it is very difficult to hit anything at that range (also notice that casualties are only rarely seen at those ranges).

The 130/130 modifier has also affected the balance a lot.

On the other hand I've just conducted a test, and it seems the Thompsons actually cause some casualties at range 4 in v7.1 even when toughness/arty has been set to 130/130.

Personally I would set range to 3 for thompsons but well you probably know better......

Hmmm.....

Well, another topic:
It seems the prices for Motorcycle squads and other fastmoving infantry units have been fixed for the German OOB. But the prices seem to be wrong for

SO Cossack
SO Cavalry
SO Motorcycle squad
SO Motorcycle MMG
US Cavalry
BR Light Cav
BR Cavalry

There are probably more nations with fast units that seem incorrectly priced, but I don't have time to look through OOBs right now.

Another thing: The German PanzerFaust 60/100 team has different stats than the US PanzerFaust 60/100 team.

[Svennemir]

I don't remember whether I mentioned this before, but MMGs and HMGs could maybe (in my opinion - all in favour?) use some more killing potential after the 130/130 modification.

Those were real meatchoppers really, and German doctrine was to a degree built around those. The Landsers protect the MGs, the MGs do the real killing. Something like that anyway

[Henri]

Originally posted by Panzer Leo
Well, let's see then...it's 1 1/2 weeks since Fabio posted SPWAW H2H on his site and at least one or two downloads were done by now

Leo, I just recently downloaded SPWaW and only ordered the LV megacampaign yesterday. Like others, I am not too keen on doubling the space that SPWaW takes on my crowded hard disk. Finally, I haven't gotten into pbem play with this game yet.

A nice idea would be to incorporate your mod into the SPWaW game with a switch that would use the mod fof pbem play but use the regular version for normal play. This could also make it much smaller. If your OOBs are better than those of 7.1, then I am sure that you could come to an agreement with PV on which ones should be used, with the exception of the few that the AI cannot use properly.

Henri

[Panzer Leo]

It seems the prices for Motorcycle squads and other fastmoving infantry units have been fixed for the German OOB. But the prices seem to be wrong for

You're right, I'll take a closer look at it and make them a bit more expensive...

Another thing: The German PanzerFaust 60/100 team has different stats than the US PanzerFaust 60/100 team.

What exactly ? If you mean the HE pen 222, that is because of armored skirts. I made German HE (HEAT) rounds usable against armored vehicles, but the Allied not. Reason is, that the HE ammo ignores armored skirts. As the Germans have so many tanks with skirts in contrast to the Allied, this seemed to be the only way to handle this problem, without giving German PzFst or PzSchrecks a higher ammo load. It's a disadvantage for Allied vehicles with skirts, as they are vulnerable to German HE ammo from HEAT weapons like the PzFst, but there're only very few (only Churchill tank come to my mind at the moment...)...

I don't remember whether I mentioned this before, but MMGs and HMGs could maybe (in my opinion - all in favour?) use some more killing potential after the 130/130 modification.

looking into it...

Leo, I just recently downloaded SPWaW and only ordered the LV megacampaign yesterday. Like others, I am not too keen on doubling the space that SPWaW takes on my crowded hard disk. Finally, I haven't gotten into pbem play with this game yet.

You do not have to install two versions (well, what I propose now is not waterproof, but should work...)
My package is changing three types of game components:
First is stuff like icons, sounds and terrain. Second are the OOBs and third the mech.exe.

A regular version with v7.1 OOBs should work with my icons and sound and the mech.exe also.
The mech.exe is only changing some national values like exp/mor and the like, but does not interfere with the OOBs or game play.

So if you install H2H and put back the regular v7.1 OOBs in it, they should work. A OOB manager will help you in doing this, if you don't want to do it by hand.
You then would have v7.1 OOBs, some of my icons and sound and different exp/mor values then in the regular v7.1, but that's it.
It should be possible to play MCs with this setup...

I didn't test it, but I can't see a reason, why it shouldn't work...

If someone could tell me about how this worked out after trying it, that would be appreciated...

[AmmoSgt]

Just a few notes and things to think about with rating SMG's , especially the Thompson...
Dang thing was HEAVY .. Heavier than a Garand which was a bad thing if ya had to carry it..but a good thing if you wanted to control it when firing.. Typically accuracy has been reported as 4-5 inch groups at 40 yards and under a foot at 80 yards in short bursts.. Bench rest firing was even better of course.
One factor that effects range in all SMG's is the weight of the bullet.. the Thompson fired a 230 grain bullet , the 9x19 (parabellum)mm rounds depending on country of manifacture are a low of 115 grain to a high of 147 Grain (Germany seemed to like 124 grain which was the designed weight for the 9mm luger) , and the 7.62/7.65 x 25 Tokarov/Mauser type run between 85 and 94 grain.
Velocity is another Factor, with barrel length causing some varaition, with .45 cal nominally around 1000 fps , 9mm nominally around 1200 fps and 7.62/7.65 in the neghborhood of 1300-1500 fps from typical SMG lenght barrels (German 7.65 Mauser ammo tends towards the lower end due to the design limitations of the .30 cal Luger, while the Russian tended to make a seperate hotter load for their SMG's that was risky to shoot out of their TT33/TT30 pistols . Basically why the Germans went primarily with the 9mm.
Basic balistics tell us that the heavier bullet holds it velocity better over distance and of course heavier rounds tend to deflect less from cross winds and light brush ect.
The Soumi and Thompson both came with compensators that show an increased muzzel velocity in actual chronographic tests over uncompesated barrels and have a benifical effect in damping first level harmonic vibration in the barrel during auto firing, reducing dispersion of the bullets.
The Thompsons Rear sight was graduated from 50-600 yards , heck a lot of rifles are graduated to 2000 yards , so I figure 200 is a reasonable estimate with the above accuracy tests indicating most rounds would hit a man sized tartget at that range, with greater knockdown power and accuracy at that range than 9mm or 7.62/7.65 bullets due to the above ballistic factors.
In short, if any SMG can have a claim at being effective at 4 hexes it would be the Thompson's and the Soumi's, if the actual ballistics of the ammo and the capability and features of the weapons is what drives their ratings in the game.

[AmmoSgt]

PS: practically none of the above would apply to the US M3 "Grease Gun" shorter barrel, uncompensated, and a much lighter weight.. but then it only cost 15 dollars to make while the Thompsons cost 209 dollars ( WW2 dollars) to make.

[Panzer Leo]

In short, if any SMG can have a claim at being effective at 4 hexes it would be the Thompson's

Some good points, but I think there must be something you're overseeing, that gives the Thompson a big setback.
I cannot argue on a technical base what and why, but I can show you why I believe the Thompson was one of the worst SMGs in effective range.

These are just a few links, that deal with Thompsons:

http://www.wwiitech.net/main/usa/weapon ... index.html

http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg29-e.htm

http://www.pnwhg.org/1stid/m1a1thompson.htm

http://centurian.topcities.com/eamclan/weapons.htm

All of the above links give the Thompson an effective range of 50-60m.

I could not find a single link with the Thompson having a remarkable higher range than the above, except this one with 110m:

http://www.wwiitechpubs.com/barrack/inf ... on-br.html

But the effective range on this site is calculated different from the others, as you can see from the range given for the MP38/40 with 200m:

http://www.wwiitechpubs.com/barrack/inf ... 40-br.html

So everything i found, that compared the Thompson to other guns like the MP38/40 state the MP38/40 about the double effective range...in the game it is only a factor of 1.5.
And when it comes to compare it to the PPsH, well than the Thompson looks really bad...

If you could show me a site, where your assumptions of a higher range are described and comparisons to other SMG models are made, it would really help to back your point of view.
For now I have only your word for it (and some good thoughts, but I think they are not waterproof :rolleyes: )

[TheOriginalOverlord]

Originally posted by Panzer Leo


Some good points, but I think there must be something you're overseeing, that gives the Thompson a big setback.
I cannot argue on a technical base what and why, but I can show you why I believe the Thompson was one of the worst SMGs in effective range.

These are just a few links, that deal with Thompsons:

http://www.wwiitech.net/main/usa/weapon ... index.html

http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg29-e.htm

http://www.pnwhg.org/1stid/m1a1thompson.htm

http://centurian.topcities.com/eamclan/weapons.htm

All of the above links give the Thompson an effective range of 50-60m.

I could not find a single link with the Thompson having a remarkable higher range than the above, except this one with 110m:

http://www.wwiitechpubs.com/barrack/inf ... on-br.html

But the effective range on this site is calculated different from the others, as you can see from the range given for the MP38/40 with 200m:

http://www.wwiitechpubs.com/barrack/inf ... 40-br.html

So everything i found, that compared the Thompson to other guns like the MP38/40 state the MP38/40 about the double effective range...in the game it is only a factor of 1.5.
And when it comes to compare it to the PPsH, well than the Thompson looks really bad...

If you could show me a site, where your assumptions of a higher range are described and comparisons to other SMG models are made, it would really help to back your point of view.
For now I have only your word for it (and some good thoughts, but I think they are not waterproof :rolleyes: )

*personal experience note*

MP38/40 neat weapon and reliable. I personaly don't have a problem with a 200m range for this. Using my friends MP40 I shot at man size "popup" targets at 200m. I got 4 hits from a full mag (32rnds). I was standing and unsupported firing 4 shot bursts. So figure 8 rnds per hit. The burst that didn't hit was right on the target but I didn't get the "lucky" bullet on target.

Stens- very simple and crude except for the later Mk5 (better sights and stock) Weapon is not very stable due to wobbly stock. Accuracy is not anywhere close to the MP40. At 25m it cannot keep a full burst(4-5 rnds) on a mansize target. Mk5 probably a little better but not by much.

Thompsons- Fairly accurate, more so than Sten by far not quite as good as MP40. M1921/28 versions had Cutts compensator to help reduce muzzle climb. Wartime M1 series didn't and also had simple fixed sights.

M3 grease gun- Decent accuracy, better than Sten almost as good as Thompson. Has slow ROF so it's easy to control.

PPSh series- Good weapon, great suppressive fire. At least as accurate as Thompson, maybe even the MP40. High ROF and high Mv means getting a good concentrated burst on target. Particular PPSh-41 I shot was excellant but accuracy wasn't that good, I believe it was crap ammo we used. Function was perfect and it "seemed" accuracy was good one burts would be on tgt and the next would be off. I'm gonna blame the ammo on this one.

*personal experience off*

How about giving ALL SMGs a range of say 400m but adjust ACC and HE kill accordingly so you will have some suppressive effect.

[Svennemir]

I don't think any SMG should have range over 4 hexes, they become far too deadly then! (I've multiple times seen USMC squads with Thompson kill 6-8 japanese with a single burst at 4-5 maybe 6 hex range in 6.1 when SMGs were divine weapons.

[Panzer Leo]

personel experience is always welcome

Your description of the weapons compared to each other is pretty much the line up I use...

Sten as worst, then Thompson, MP 38/40 and finally PPSh as best.

As you mentioned, the Thompson I use is the wartime production model M1 or M1A1, both being a "cheaper" version with less accuracy and simpler sights.
I only know 9mm rounds and how they behave (what an odd arc you get when going on longer distance ) and then not fired by MP38/40, but P1 (P38) or UZI, so it's good to have some real firing notes...

How about giving ALL SMGs a range of say 400m but adjust ACC and HE kill accordingly so you will have some suppressive effect.

That's actually the main problem on this...
I have experimented quite a bit with ACC and HE, but it's tough to simulate a gun like the Thompson. The ACC is already at low level, so not much to do...the HE is another problem. If I have e.g. the Thompson, I want a real high HE at close range. But that same high HE will cause casualties even at longer ranges, because it some sort of just "overrules" the low ACC value with it's high HE.

So 400m is something almost not to model realistically with SPWAW (at least I couldn't figure out sofar).
But I could test to raise the max range of SMGs in general by 50m (1hex), bringing the PPSh to 250m and the STEN to 150m...I'll look into it...

[Svennemir]

Hmm.. just posted this in the wrong forum by accident, but here's something about Machine Guns and this is where it is meant to be posted:


I think by far the most important infantry weapon issue is the medium/heavy MGs. They are not very effective meat choppers in SPWAW, I find that a rifle squad can often cope with even a HMG at ranges~200 yds without much trouble.

The high-ROF AAA have had their effectivity lessened considerably lately. But the nerf also hit the real MGs, so their relative balance hasn't been so much improved yet.

The problem is that a machine gun is only a single weapon while a rifle squad has ~10 rifles + LMG firing, making them sometimes more effective than real machine guns - especially considering unit costs and mobility.

Running around full speed in open terrain 200 yards from a machine gun should be more like suicide than a way to take it out (I may be exaggerating here).

Another problem which might not be seen "on paper" is that machine guns rely a lot on OpFire. In one's own turn they can only be used if they're not moved, meaning the enemy will often face them when it's his own turn. As most of you have experienced, concentrated fire can often eliminate threats from OpFiring units, meaning the player whose turn it is can often do better than the other since he can rally several times.

That's why not so many OpFire shots will be seen as soon as the MGs are suppressed, and that's why their effectivity should be increased, making them more intimidating even though it is not their turn.

I think both accuracy and kill values could be tweaked upwards for MGs. Maybe considerably. Input?

[Panzer Leo]

Originally posted by Svennemir

I think both accuracy and kill values could be tweaked upwards for MGs. Maybe considerably. Input?

Errr...??? Do you mean MGs are to weak with 130/130 or even with 100/100 like in v7.1 ?

With H2H I will go back to 100/100 and then the better MGs are occasionally able to wipe out whole squads with one shot...should be enough

The setback of the infantry weapons with 130/130 forced me to pull down the multibarrelled guns in HE and use 100/100.

For the SMGs I think I found a good setup:
ranging from 150-250m, with most SMGs causing rarely casualties in the last 50-100m and doing only suppression.
I was also able to make Thompson and PPSh equally lethal up to 100m and then the Thompson crashing down, while the PPSh keeps it's performence better over range...
The MP38/40 is a bit less lethal the first 100m, but beats the Thompson over 100m ... a.s.o

[Panzer Leo]

Here's one for "Bernie":

You reminded me of an idea I once had, but forgot...

You asked on some thread, if it would be possible to have no casualty reports on Arty bombardment in SPWAW...well I figured out how and created a mech.exe, that will not give away enemy positions when being hit by Arty...

Disadvantage (if you can say so): there won't be casualty reports at all for combat (only for mines or so...)...but this should rather add to realism then be a real disadvantage (you can still see the casualties in the icon change on the map - but then you gotta do headcount;) )...

I'll do some testing and if it shows up as stable, it will be the future H2H mech.exe...

Thanks, Bernie

[Drex]

I'm wondering if anyone has had problems with the accuracy of soviet armor in H2H? I've been creamed twice now and had to abandon the games. but as the US vs Germans it seems balanced. these games are in '44 or '45. In one game the opponent did a test and charged my position and just cleaned my clock and I'm talking about defending with T-34/85s and better.

[Panzer Leo]

Originally posted by Drex
I'm wondering if anyone has had problems with the accuracy of soviet armor in H2H? I've been creamed twice now and had to abandon the games. but as the US vs Germans it seems balanced. these games are in '44 or '45. In one game the opponent did a test and charged my position and just cleaned my clock and I'm talking about defending with T-34/85s and better.

Basically, there're no changes to Soviet armor...the only thing that would have a slight effect on to hit chances is maybe a bit lowered leadership values on the Russian side, but that would make only for a few percent - nothing dramatic...(and in '44/'45 the exp and leadership is good enough to not automatically get creamed as Russian...)

Could you be more specific with your battles/test...what vehicles opposing at what distances, who had cover, a.s.o. ?