Machine Gun Battalion

[TMO]

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=gNY4whd5B6sC&pg=PA38&lpg=PA38&dq=universal+carriers&source=bl&ots=QChRwePslV&sig=ErxuXrNWXCqBeuQWks_j3lQZKu0&hl=en&ei=jiGgSuDYMY6enQOvy8TeDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3#v=onepage&q=universal%20carriers&f=false

[GoodGuy]

Well, hehe, I stumbled over that book some 5 hrs ago already. But the published pages refer to recce units only, while the interesting parts aren't shown. So I ordered the sucker on Amazon, i wanna know now. lol
While I'm sure the Canadians had Bren carriers, I'm not totally sure whether the Brit. MG Bns had 'em too, now. I can't deny the possibility that the regular carrier platoon of an INF unit could have been employed too, as they used to be the "slaves" within INF units, responsible for transport, medevac, towing stuff. Still, I can't imagine that the MMG units, as heavy weapons support units, often right behind the front line or even in the middle of the shyte (Italy), were using trucks.

BTW: oddly enough, the carrier on the picture I posted has a Rhino insignia, and "AD" above it. Would that refer to the 1st British Armoured Division? Their Rhino used to be a charging one [:)], though. Maybe they borrowed equipment

Whatever the case, carriers had been used, for sure.

[TMO]

The following is from Universal Carrier 1936-48: The 'Bren Gun Carrier' Story, by David Fletcher, Tony Bryan (the link I posted earlier) p.34:

Medium Machine-gun Carriers
In 1943 the organization of the infantry division underwent one of its periodic convulsions with the creation of the Brigade Support Group. Based on recent experience, there was a desire to increase firepower available at the brigade level with medium (Vickers) machine guns for volume, 4.2in mortars for high explosive and 20mm automatic weapons for low-level anti-aircraft defence and the ability to tackle light armoured vehicles. Army Training Instruction No. 7 provided the details, evidently unaware that to some extent it had just reinvented the wheel.

Universal carriers would play a major part in the new organization, with 30 of them in all in each brigade support group, three of which combined to form a support battalion. Events had virtually gone full circle since these carriers would be modified to carry a Vickers machine gun, and this is where we come in. However, this modified carrier was not identical with the original Machine Gun Carrier: the gun would not be carried in the front of the vehicle but on a mofified mounting fitted to the top of the carrier's engine cover. The medium machine-gun company in the support group was divided into three platoons, each of which was equipped with four carriers armed with machine guns. Each carrier had a four-man crew and 19 factory-packed spools of ammunition, each spool of 250 rounds (4,750 rounds in all). A No. 22 radio was provided for each platoon but whether it was carried in a carrier or not is unclear. Some things did not change. The intention, quite clearly, was to operate the weapon dismounted whenever possible, although it coud be fired from the vehicle in a direct-fire role over the heads of friendly infantry. Firing on the move was not encouraged other than in exceptional circumstances.

On the use of the No. 22 set, my father's course notes say:

Communications - Basic set is the No.22, which is used for all internal communication. For close liason with infantry each MMG and Mortar platoon has a No.18 set.

So now we have an idea the evolution of MMG units in the British and Commonwealth units. Prior to 1943 MMGs were truck-borne and provided with 4,000 rds ammunition. During this early war period, field modifications were also taking place where the gun aperture of the Univeral Carrier was being modified to allow use of the MMG from within the carrier (a quick internet search indicates this was especially widespread in Australian units). Sometime in 1943 Universal Carriers replaced the trucks as transport and the number of rounds carried for each gun increased to 4,750 (see later post - doesn't include those carried by non-MMG carriers; by the end of the war this had risen to 11,000 rds).

I am confident that carriers were being used from the start of the campaign in the NW European theatre. IMHO, the trucks (as modelled in the game) should be replaced by carriers and the amount of ammunition provided for each MMG should be increased from its current level.

Regards

Tim

[TMO]

The website Goodguy referenced earlier:

http://www.vickersmachinegun.org.uk/

The Machine Gun platoon of the Divisional Machine Gun Battalion started off as a 15-cwt Truck-borne unit. By the time the small arms manual was printed in 1944, it solely referred to the use of Universal Carrier. The quantity of gun numbers had also decreased in line with the additional efficiency of ammunition supply and the ability for carriers to get closer to the gun positions.

If you look at the composition of the 1936-42 battalion it comprises four machine gun Coys each of three platoons; the 1943-46 version comprises three machine gun Coys (each three platoons) and a heavy mortar Coy (four platoons).

Looking at the make up of a platoon: the 1939 version comprises six 15 cwt trucks (platoon commander, platoon sergeant and MMG trucks (x4)) and four MMGs; the 1944 version comprises eight carriers (platoon commander, platoon sergeant, section commander (x2) and MMG carriers (x4)) and four MMGs.

The website mentioned above has fantastic diagrams detailing the layout and stowage of each of these carriers:

Platoon commander's carrier - 14 boxes .303ammo (3,500 rds); wireless set No. 22.

Platoon sergeant's carrier - 18 boxes ammo .303 (16 belted, 2 loose - 4,500 rds); 12 A/T bombs; 1 x PIAT.

Section commander's carrier - 18 boxes ammo .303 (16 belted, 2 loose - 4,500 rds).

MMG carrier - 19 boxes ammo .303 (18 stowed, one fitted - 4,750 rds).

This gives a total 36,000 rds for the platoon or 9,000 rds per gun. As currently modelled, 2,000 rds per Vickers MMG now starts to look far too conservative an allocation.

Just shows what a bit of research can uncover: 4,750 rds per gun from the 'Bren Gun Carrier' reference hasn't taken into account the extra ammo taken into action by the other four carriers in the MMG platoon and the No.22 set is quite obviously shown in the platoon commander's carrier (I wonder where the No. 18 set might have been located).

Regards

Tim

[GoodGuy]

I never scrolled down on this page:

http://www.vickersmachinegun.org.uk/tra ... versal.htm

These sketches are supposed to display the setup/equipment of a MMG carrier. The MMG had been drawn as a mounted version, with a sketch (on the 2nd picture) showing where the MMG would be stowed on a carrier.

THESE are sketches for the 1951 setup, though [:D]

[GoodGuy]

.

[TMO]

Don't think so - if you look at the date, bottom left, it's 1946. Check out the other diagrams - there are a couple detailing truck-borne MMG stowage as well.

Regards

Tim

[GoodGuy]

ORIGINAL: TMO

Just shows what a bit of research can uncover: 4,750 rds per gun from the 'Bren Gun Carrier' reference hasn't taken into account the extra ammo taken by the other four carriers in the MMG platoon and the N0.22 set is quite obviously shown in the platoon commander's carrier (I wonder where the No. 18 set might have been located).

You mean extra ammo taken by the other THREE carriers, as the first of the sub-section had been listed.

[GoodGuy]

ORIGINAL: TMO

... if you look at the date, bottom left, it's 1946.

The year 1951 mentioned on the webby refers to the year when the specification came into effect, most likely. "7-3-1946" refers to the date of creation, only.

You have to keep in mind that there had been thousands of UCs in service in 1945/46, so that upgrades (handing over UCs to ordnance) or even changes of the manufacturing process took quite some time, if not years. My guess is that quite some paper pushers inspected the sketches and used them as coffee cup saucers first, before approving them. [;)]

[TMO]

Regarding 1951 - this relates to Korean War usage (I was confused at first also). If you look at Korean war compared to 1944-46 composition there are several quite notable differences, e.g. Pl comds carrier has an LMG (Bren), 2 x No. 31. set and 1 x No. 88 set; the Pl sergeant's carrier was substituted for a Jeep. The biggest difference was that the platoon was increased in size to THREE sections of two machine guns.

Regarding section commanders: the 1944 platoon was split into two sections each of two MMGs - each section consists of three carriers (1 x section commander carrier, 2 x MMG carrier) - so FOUR carriers in addition to the four MMG carriers.

Regards

Tim

[GoodGuy]

yay

EDIT: TMO, I misread your previous post, hehe
So, yeah....

http://www.vickersmachinegun.org.uk/tra ... htm#plcomd

the Platoon commander's carrier had no MMG (just a box with spare parts and tools for the Vickers, the Platoon Sergeant's carrier had a PIAT only, while each of the 2 Section commander's carriers "carried" a rangefinder only, instead of a Vickers MMG. The carriers of the section commanders also did not have a sufficient amount of men to operate an MMG:

Crew (3 men):
Section commander,
"rangetaker",
driver/mechanic.

The MMG carrier finally carried... guess what... the Vickers and a 4-men crew! *grin*

So, the other 4 carriers carried ammo or alt tools/weapons or even mechanics, but no MMG. So, in this case, my original statement seems to be correct, the author either forgot to mention the 3 other MMG carriers, or he thought mentioning the single MMG carrier would be sufficient to explain the hierarchy of a MMG platoon. Maybe he was even unsure regarding what weapon was assigned to what particular carrier within a given platoon.

Summary: 4 carriers with 4 MMGs per platoon, with the other FOUR carriers being able to hold additional rounds as you (correctly) stated. [:)]

[TMO]

No sir... [:)]

I thought I was mistaken when I looked at the sub-section setup, for a second, but if you look at these links

http://www.vickersmachinegun.org.uk/transport-universal.htm#plcomd

the Platoon commander's carrier had no MMG (just a box with spare parts and tools for the Vickers, the Platoon Sergeant's carrier had a PIAT only, while each of the 2 Section commander's carriers "carried" a rangefinder only, instead of a Vickers MMG. The carriers of the section commanders also did not have a sufficient amount of men to operate an MMG:

Crew (3 men):
Section commander,
"rangetaker",
driver/mechanic.

The MMG carrier finally carried... guess what... the Vickers and a 4-men crew! *grin*

So, the other 4 carriers carried ammo or alt tools/weapons or even mechanics, but no MMG. So, in this case, my original statement seems to be correct, the author either forgot to mention the 3 other MMG carriers, or he thought mentioning the single MMG carrier would be sufficient to explain the hierarchy of a MMG platoon. Maybe he was even unsure regarding what weapon was assigned to what particular carrier within a given platoon.

Summary: 4 MMGs per platoon. [:)]

< Message edited by GoodGuy -- 9/6/2009 7:11:20 PM

The make-up of a machine gun platoon is 8 x carriers, 1 x motorcycle and 4 x MMG - so here we agree. However if you look carefully at the diagrams you will see that the other four non-MMG carriers carried a significant amount of .303 ammo - so yes, eight carriers but four MMGs.

Regards

Tim

[TMO]

[

[TMO]

Take a look at:

World War II infantry tactics: squad and platoon By Stephen Bull

In the HTTR scenario Raid on Renkum, R Coy 1 Para is allocated 13,100 rds of 0.303. If 2,000 of this is for the Vickers and each man has (IIRC) 60 rds, this leaves 6,000 rds for the 10 Brens or 600 rds per Bren.

If you study the link above you will see that (in addition to 50 rds each for their own rifles) a section took into action 750 rds in 25 magazines with a further 700 rds (intended for the Brens) in bandoliers. In other words around 1,400 rds was available to the Bren as opposed to the 600 currently modelled in the game - quite a difference.

Regards

Tim

[GoodGuy]

ORIGINAL: TMO

... each man has (IIRC) 60 rds,

Hey Tim, is that amount of ammo for rifles? (I can't check, I don't have HTTR installed right now).

If so, it sounds reasonable, it relates to the amount used as standard setup for German riflemen at least, since they had 2 ammo pockets, where each could hold 6 strips with 5 rounds (= 60 rounds). Many riflemen carried additional strips in their tommy-bags (used for bread).

Until around 1941, German riflemen were supposed to carry one strip with "SmK" rounds (steel core) and one strip with "SmK(H)" rounds (tungsten core) against armoured targets. The SmK rounds could penetrate 10mm of armour, the SmK(H) could penetrate 14mm of armour. The tungsten rounds were then used with MGs against Bunker embrasures only, due to the low performance of the Tungsten rounds against armoured targets.

Soldiers/officers with MP40 carried 6 mags (6 x 32 rounds), soldiers using the Sturmgewehr 44 carried around 6 mags (6 x 30). The latter number is a guess, I don't have sources covering the setups of units being equipped with the Sturmgewehr. The first considerable deployment of StG44s occured at the Eastern Front, in late October 1943, with the 93. Infantry-Division (Army Group North).

Prior to the Eastern campaign, a German leMG gunner was supposed to carry 50 rounds (belt or belt drum mag), the first assistant another 50 rounds, the standard setup per leMG was 2500 rounds per crew.
The 3rd assistant was supposed to carry the ammo box with 300 rounds. In order to save space and to get 6 belts (with 50 rounds) into the crate, the tips of the rounds of 4 belts pointed forward, but 2 belts pointed backwards, so that the assistant had to either twist or turn these 2 belts when feeding the gun. This led to jams and tricky situations in combat. The packing was then changed, with all belts/tips pointing to the same direction, which limited the storage space to 250 rounds per box.
The rest was supposed to be stored on the combat vehicle/truck. In practice, already prior to the Eastern campaign, the 2500 rounds were carried into combat, with the boxes being distributed among a section's riflemen and gunners.
Later on, the 3rd assistant position was discarded.
leMG and HMG crews also used phosphor rounds (especially in Russia) - which could lit houses or vehicles, and tracer rounds, where each 4th round was a phosphor/tracer.

[TMO]

Two quotes from:

Bayonetstrength

As a basic load, each man armed with the rifle carried fifty rounds of ammunition in ten chargers of five rounds each. They were carried in one of the two webbing pouches worn by each rifleman. By 1944 the load had doubled to one hundred rounds, but the additional ammunition was earmarked for the Section Bren Gun. Bandoliers, each containing five pockets (10 rounds per pocket) were also used.

Ammunition wise, each Bren was provided with twenty five magazines, one with the gun and the rest carried in two boxes holding a dozen each. In the Rifle Section the boxes were not taken into action. Instead, each of the six men in the Rifle Group carried two magazines, and each of the three men in the Gun Group carried four. Two magazines could be held in a single webbing pouch. It was quickly found that the only real flaw concerned the magazines, which if loaded to capacity would jam. The maximum load was therefore reduced to twenty eight rounds each, 700 rounds for a full complement of magazines. This was rounded up to 1000 rounds with loose ammunition, carried by its vehicle, or distributed as an extra fifty rounds for each man in the Rifle Group.

Regards

Tim

[TMO]

Regarding the composition of a British infantry battalion circa 1944. The following is from two sources, namely Gary Kennedy's excellent (and very well researched) site:

http://www.bayonetstrength.150m.com/toe/BritInfantry/rifle_company.htm

Compiled from the War Establishment for an Infantry Battalion, reference II/233/2, effective 30th April 1943. This organisation was superseded by II/233/3 from 12th November 1944, which incorporated nine amendments made since the Spring of 1943.

and my own original copy of II/233/3 (Notified in ACIs 29/11/44. Effective date 12/11/44).

Bn HQ
Transport: Car 4-seat (x1), Jeep (x1), 15-cwt truck (office) (x1), 15-cwt truck (x3)*, Universal Carrier (x1).
Weapons: Bren LMG (x1).
*My copy has 15-cwt-truck (x2) and one 4x4 armoured ambulance.

HQ Coy
Coy HQ
Transport: Jeep (x1).

Signal Pl
Transport: 15-cwt truck (x2).
Weapons: PIAT (x1).

Admin Pl
Transport: Jeep (x1), 15-cwt truck (x1), 3t lorry (x2)*.
Weapons: Bren LMG ( x3), PIAT (x3).
*My copy has Jeep (x1), 15-cwt truck (x1), 3t truck (x13), 15-cwt truck (water - 200 gls) (x1).

S Coy
3" mortar Pl
Transport: Universal carrier (x7), 15-cwt truck (x3).
Weapons: 3" mortar (x6), PIAT (x3).

Carrier Pl
Transport: Universal carrier (x13), 15-cwt truck (x2).
Weapons: Bren LMG (x13), PIAT (x4), 2" mortar (x4).

A/T Pl
Transport: Loyd carrier (x12), Universal carrier (x1), 15-cwt truck (x1)*.
Weapons: 6pdr (x6), Bren LMG (x6), 2" mortar (x6).
*My copy has 15-cwt truck (x2).

Pioneer Pl
Transport: Jeep (x3), 3t lorry (x1).

Rifle Coy (x4) - each
Transport: Universal carrier (x1).
Weapons: Bren LMG (x10), PIAT (x3), 2" mortar (x4).

Regards

Tim

PS Will add more over the next few days.

[TMO]

In terms of personnel the figures are as follows:

Bn HQ
5 Officers
53 ORs

HQ Coy
Coy HQ
1 Officer
5 ORs

Signal Pl 
1 Officer
35 ORs

Admin Pl
2 Officers
52 ORs

S Coy
3" mortar Pl
1 Officer
42 ORs 

Carrier Pl 
2 Officers
61 ORs 

A/T Pl
2 Officers
53 ORs

Pioneer Pl 
1 Officer
21 ORs 

Rifle Coy (x4) - each 
5 Officers
120 ORs 

Regards

Tim

[mariandavid]

Just a couple of points to add to a rewarding discussion. The biggest problem in modelling an MMG company is that it was significantly different in power in the attack and defence. This, of course, was due to the weight of the gun and (above all) of its water and ammunition. It is reasonable to assume that a platoon could only displace forward on foot with half of its four guns. Just to confirm the allocation in most divisions was one company per brigade, with all three platoons placed in prepared positions when on the defence. If attacking the positions on and flanking the attack were doubled, with most&nbsp;by 1944 matching the WW1 practise of 'sweeping fire' at up to 4,500 yards (when the 'z' ammunition was available) to catch enemy reinforcements. As a sidenote the Germans stated (have not got the source handy) that the two deadliest weapons they faced in WW1 were the French 75mm and the Vickers MMG - the latter it seems because all that revealed its effect was the 'gentle patter' of the rounds impacting.
&nbsp;
I have a suspicion that by late 1944 each battalion was operating with its own platoon of MMG (as long as Montgomery did not know!). Certainly in Italy&nbsp;this was the practise. Although the figures quoted for weapon strength are correct, there is reason to believe that in practise front-line troops paid little attention to this. In the case of the British this is most evident in the widespread adoption of the Sten SMG - British divisions had more SMG than those of any other army and many pictures show a high usage in urban terrain. The other is the addition of an LMG to&nbsp;platoon headquarters or to one or more sections. As always what mattered was the ammunition load available. In defensive or 'short staged advances' an unit would logically load up with whatever is on hand. Incidentally the largest number of Bren LMG in a company that I have been able to find was about 30 - one for every three men - mind you this was in Italy and by a battalion of the London Scottish an unit notorious for ignoring official dictates!

[TMO]

Mariandavid
&nbsp;

Incidentally the largest number of Bren LMG in a company that I have been able to find was about 30 - one for every three men - mind you this was in Italy and by a battalion of the London Scottish an unit notorious for ignoring official dictates!&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;

&nbsp;
Wow! 3 per section - that's a lot. I'd imagine not common practice though. Although interestingly this information supports the quote from World War II infantry tactics: squad and platoon By Stephen Bull that by the end of the war some infantry sections were upgrading their number of Brens:
&nbsp;

In the late stages of the war it was not unknown for the section to carry two Brens.

&nbsp;
Regards
&nbsp;
Tim
&nbsp;
&nbsp;