Surface combat - still needs some tweaking

[witpqs]

Here is one with Willis "Ching" Lee as USN commander:

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Sep 17, 42
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Pearl Harbor at 180,107, Range 8,000 Yards

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
BB Nagato, Shell hits 49, and is sunk
CL Jintsu, Shell hits 5, heavy fires
CL Kuma, Shell hits 4, heavy fires
DD Fubuki, Shell hits 3, heavy fires
DD Sazanami, Shell hits 3, on fire
DD Akikaze, Shell hits 15, and is sunk

Allied Ships
BB North Carolina, Shell hits 28, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
BB Washington, Shell hits 3
BB South Dakota, Shell hits 18, on fire, heavy damage
CA Houston, Shell hits 5, on fire
CA Louisville, Shell hits 5, heavy fires
CA Chicago, Shell hits 5, and is sunk
CA Pensacola, Shell hits 3
DD Craven, Shell hits 1
DD Gridley, Shell hits 2, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD McCall, Shell hits 2, on fire
DD Maury, Shell hits 1
DD Benham, Shell hits 2, on fire



Reduced sighting due to 46% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Clear Conditions and 46% moonlight: 12,000 yards
CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 12,000 yards
Range closes to 8,000 yards...
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 8,000 yards
Yano, Hideo* crosses the 'T'
BB Nagato engages BB South Dakota at 8,000 yards
BB South Dakota engages CL Kuma at 8,000 yards
BB North Carolina engages BB Nagato at 8,000 yards
BB South Dakota engages DD Akikaze at 8,000 yards
BB Nagato engages CA Chicago at 8,000 yards
BB Nagato engages CA Louisville at 8,000 yards
DD Akikaze engages DD Benham at 8,000 yards
DD McCall engages DD Akikaze at 8,000 yards
Range closes to 5,000 yards
BB South Dakota engages BB Nagato at 5,000 yards
BB Nagato engages BB Washington at 5,000 yards
CL Jintsu engages BB South Dakota at 5,000 yards
CA Pensacola engages CL Kuma at 5,000 yards
BB Nagato engages CA Chicago at 5,000 yards
CL Jintsu engages CA Louisville at 5,000 yards
DD Gridley engages DD Akikaze at 5,000 yards
Range closes to 4,000 yards
BB Washington engages BB Nagato at 4,000 yards
CL Kuma engages BB South Dakota at 4,000 yards
BB Nagato engages BB North Carolina at 4,000 yards
CA Pensacola engages DD Akikaze at 4,000 yards
DD Gridley engages DD Sazanami at 4,000 yards
DD McCall engages DD Fubuki at 4,000 yards
BB Nagato engages CA Houston at 4,000 yards
DD Fubuki engages DD Benham at 4,000 yards
DD McCall engages DD Fubuki at 4,000 yards
DD Gridley engages DD Fubuki at 4,000 yards
Range closes to 2,000 yards
BB Nagato engages BB South Dakota at 2,000 yards
CL Kuma engages BB South Dakota at 2,000 yards
CL Jintsu engages BB North Carolina at 2,000 yards
BB Nagato engages CA Pensacola at 2,000 yards
DD Gridley sunk by DD Sazanami at 2,000 yards
BB Nagato engages CA Louisville at 2,000 yards
BB Nagato engages CA Houston at 2,000 yards
DD Akikaze engages DD McCall at 2,000 yards
DD Akikaze engages DD Craven at 2,000 yards
BB South Dakota engages BB Nagato at 2,000 yards
BB Nagato engages BB Washington at 2,000 yards
BB Nagato engages BB North Carolina at 2,000 yards
BB Nagato engages CA Pensacola at 2,000 yards
CA Chicago sunk by BB Nagato at 2,000 yards
BB Nagato engages CA Houston at 2,000 yards
DD Benham engages DD Sazanami at 2,000 yards
DD Maury engages DD Akikaze at 2,000 yards
DD Fubuki engages DD Craven at 2,000 yards
Range increases to 4,000 yards
BB South Dakota engages BB Nagato at 4,000 yards
BB Washington engages CL Kuma at 4,000 yards
CA Houston engages CL Jintsu at 4,000 yards
CL Kuma engages CA Louisville at 4,000 yards
DD Sazanami engages DD McCall at 4,000 yards
DD Sazanami engages DD Benham at 4,000 yards
DD Sazanami engages DD Maury at 4,000 yards
DD Akikaze engages DD Craven at 4,000 yards
Range closes to 3,000 yards
CL Kuma engages CA Houston at 3,000 yards
CA Pensacola engages CL Kuma at 3,000 yards
CL Jintsu engages CA Louisville at 3,000 yards
CL Jintsu engages CA Houston at 3,000 yards
DD Fubuki engages DD Benham at 3,000 yards
DD Sazanami engages DD Maury at 3,000 yards
DD Akikaze engages DD Craven at 3,000 yards
Range increases to 6,000 yards
CL Kuma engages CA Louisville at 6,000 yards
CL Jintsu engages CA Pensacola at 6,000 yards
DD Akikaze engages DD McCall at 6,000 yards
CA Houston engages CL Jintsu at 6,000 yards
DD Fubuki engages DD Craven at 6,000 yards
DD Sazanami engages DD Maury at 6,000 yards
DD McCall engages DD Sazanami at 6,000 yards
Yano, Hideo* orders Japanese TF to disengage
BB Washington engages BB Nagato at 6,000 yards
BB Nagato engages BB Washington at 6,000 yards
CA Pensacola engages CL Jintsu at 6,000 yards
CL Kuma engages CA Louisville at 6,000 yards
DD Sazanami engages DD McCall at 6,000 yards
DD Fubuki engages DD Benham at 6,000 yards
Range increases to 7,000 yards
BB South Dakota engages BB Nagato at 7,000 yards
CA Louisville engages CL Kuma at 7,000 yards
CA Pensacola engages CL Kuma at 7,000 yards
DD Akikaze sunk by DD Benham at 7,000 yards
DD Fubuki engages DD Craven at 7,000 yards
DD Fubuki engages DD McCall at 7,000 yards
Range increases to 9,000 yards
BB Washington engages BB Nagato at 9,000 yards
BB Nagato sunk by BB Washington at 9,000 yards
BB South Dakota engages CL Jintsu at 9,000 yards
DD Sazanami engages DD Craven at 9,000 yards
DD Fubuki engages DD Maury at 9,000 yards
Range increases to 10,000 yards
BB Washington engages CL Kuma at 10,000 yards
DD McCall engages DD Sazanami at 10,000 yards
DD Fubuki engages DD Craven at 10,000 yards
DD Sazanami engages DD Benham at 10,000 yards
DD Sazanami engages DD Craven at 10,000 yards
Task forces break off...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[John Lansford]

ORIGINAL: oldman45

The only problem I have with the surface routine is the inability of BB's to hit something with their main guns, other than that it "feels" right.

I agree; I had a 4 DD TF react to intercept a contact off the NW coast of Luzon, and found two CL's and 2 DD's. In the following night battle I lost 3 DD's for serious damage to a CL and a DD, which is what I would have expected.

I also had a 5 cruiser TF literally devastate a harbor full of unloading transports just west of Rabaul. I think they sank about 80% of the ships and scattered the rest, but now they're nearly all out of ammo.

PoW jumped into a harbor full of transports in NW Borneo, however, and managed only one hit on a transport before the entire TF escaped. How did that happen? A 27 knot BB can't find even one or two transports that were unloading?

[Knavey]

JFBs Dream!

Was running a test on the Aleutians scenario. Formed a BB bombardment TF for Kiska and this is the results.

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR May 01, 43
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Kiska Island at 157,51, Range 1,000 Yards

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
CL Abukuma, Shell hits 31, and is sunk
CL Kiso, Shell hits 12
DD Wakaba, Shell hits 6, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Shirakumo

Allied Ships
BB Nevada, Shell hits 11, Torpedo hits 4, and is sunk
BB Pennsylvania, Shell hits 38, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
BB Idaho, Shell hits 22, Torpedo hits 5, and is sunk
CA Indianapolis
CA Louisville
CA San Francisco
CA Wichita, Shell hits 1
DD Coghlan
DD Lansdowne
DD Bancroft
DD Caldwell
DD Frazier
DD Gansevoort
DD Meade
DD Edwards
DD Mustin



Low visibility due to Thunderstorms with 3% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Thunderstorms and 3% moonlight: 1,000 yards
Range closes to 7,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 7,000 yards
Range closes to 2,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 2,000 yards
Range closes to 1,000 yards...
Totoh, M. crosses the 'T'
CL Kiso engages BB Idaho at 1,000 yards
BB Pennsylvania engages CL Abukuma at 1,000 yards
DD Shirakumo engages BB Nevada at 1,000 yards
BB Idaho sunk by DD Wakaba at 1,000 yards
DD Wakaba engages DD Mustin at 1,000 yards
Range increases to 2,000 yards
BB Pennsylvania engages CL Kiso at 2,000 yards
BB Pennsylvania engages CL Abukuma at 2,000 yards
DD Shirakumo engages CA Wichita at 2,000 yards
DD Wakaba engages BB Pennsylvania at 2,000 yards
DD Frazier engages DD Shirakumo at 2,000 yards
CL Abukuma engages BB Pennsylvania at 2,000 yards
BB Pennsylvania engages CL Abukuma at 2,000 yards
DD Shirakumo engages BB Pennsylvania at 2,000 yards
CL Abukuma engages CA San Francisco at 2,000 yards
CL Abukuma engages BB Pennsylvania at 2,000 yards
CL Abukuma engages BB Nevada at 2,000 yards
CA Wichita engages CL Abukuma at 2,000 yards
CL Abukuma engages CA San Francisco at 2,000 yards
DD Wakaba sunk by DD Mustin at 2,000 yards
Totoh, M. orders Japanese TF to disengage
BB Pennsylvania engages CL Abukuma at 2,000 yards
CL Abukuma sunk by BB Pennsylvania at 2,000 yards
DD Shirakumo engages BB Pennsylvania at 2,000 yards
DD Shirakumo engages DD Meade at 2,000 yards
Task forces break off...

[Mike Scholl]

CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 7,000 yards
Range closes to 2,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 2,000 yards
Range closes to 1,000 yards...
Totoh, M. crosses the 'T'

Something kinda funky about this.  Allies spot the Japanese 6,000 yards before engagement opens, but form up so that the Japs will have every advantage when it occurs?   That just isn't right....

[Knavey]

My second attempt at this.

Same turn sequence up to now. Changed the leaders by pulling into Attu. The bombardment went off without a hitch and no IJN assets showed up. Turned around to bombard again and guess who was protecting the beach again.

USS Idaho is going to make a good reef dive!


Night Time Surface Combat, near Kiska Island at 157,51, Range 1,000 Yards

Allied aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft losses
No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
CL Abukuma, Shell hits 1
CL Kiso, Shell hits 3
DD Wakaba, Shell hits 1
DD Shirakumo, Shell hits 6, and is sunk

Allied Ships
BB Nevada
BB Pennsylvania, Shell hits 2
BB Idaho, Shell hits 33, Torpedo hits 7, and is sunk
CA Indianapolis
CA Louisville
CA San Francisco
CA Wichita
DD Coghlan
DD Lansdowne
DD Bancroft
DD Caldwell
DD Frazier
DD Gansevoort
DD Meade
DD Edwards
DD Mustin



Reduced visibility due to Rain with 0% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Rain and 0% moonlight: 1,000 yards
Range closes to 10,000 yards...
Range closes to 8,000 yards...
Range closes to 6,000 yards...
Range closes to 4,000 yards...
Range closes to 2,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 2,000 yards
Range closes to 1,000 yards...
CL Kiso engages BB Idaho at 1,000 yards
CL Abukuma engages BB Pennsylvania at 1,000 yards
DD Shirakumo sunk by BB Idaho at 1,000 yards
BB Idaho engages DD Wakaba at 1,000 yards
Range increases to 2,000 yards
BB Idaho engages CL Abukuma at 2,000 yards
CL Abukuma engages BB Idaho at 2,000 yards
BB Idaho sunk by DD Wakaba at 2,000 yards
CL Abukuma engages CA Louisville at 2,000 yards
DD Meade engages DD Wakaba at 2,000 yards
DD Wakaba engages DD Frazier at 2,000 yards
Task forces break off...

[tigercub]

1,000 yards!! (Reduced visibility due to Rain with 0% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Rain and 0% moonlight: 1,000 yards )
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 2,000 yards
It seems fair under this weather but i would not want to see it time and time again.

Tiger!

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 7,000 yards
Range closes to 2,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 2,000 yards
Range closes to 1,000 yards...
Totoh, M. crosses the 'T'

Something kinda funky about this.  Allies spot the Japanese 6,000 yards before engagement opens, but form up so that the Japs will have every advantage when it occurs?   That just isn't right....

Similar to the one I posted, except in that one the USN lookouts spotted the IJN at 12,000 as opposed to the IJN spotting at 8,000. I think spotting the other force significantly early (whatever distance that means!) should give better chances for either being in a good position or not being in a bad position.

[Astarix]

I don't see anything particularly egregious here. 

There were numerous instances of crazy results during the actual War.  1st Battle of Savo Island for instance, the allies were caught totally by surprise even though they were equipped with radar, and theoretically at least, had better fire control systems than the IJN CA's they fought.  The result was a catastrophic defeat for the allied CA's.

Or, I think, it was 3rd battle of Savo Island, the allies were badly overmatched during the night engagement, but the DD Laffey, was able to get into knife fighting range and poured small caliber fire into Hiei.  Hiei couldn't depress any of its larger caliber guns low enough to engage Laffey during the critical part of the engagement.  As a result the BB's top side was turned into flaming wreckage and a large portion of the command and damage control crew was killed.  The fires spread out of control and Hiei was turned into a white hot inferno, by morning she was a drifting wreck and the Marine air groups at Guadalcanal sank her later that day.  Sure once Laffey came out of the shadow of Hiei, her escorts sank her, but for the 3 critical minutes that mattered the BB couldn't defend itself. 

As a matter of fact during the sinking of the Bismark there is plenty of evidence that more shells missed the Bismark, than hit her, but the Home Fleet fired several 100's of rounds of large caliber ordanance at her.  So even if only 25% hit her that was plenty to wreck her.  I recall reading that the expedition that located her counted over 100 seperate impact sites on the wreck. 

This miss rate in the early 40's was incredibly high, even for a well trained crew using the most modern fire control systems available at the time.

I'm really enjoying the Surface combat routines as I find that surprise, individual ship and TF leadership, crew training, visibility conditions and random chance matter much more than they did in stock.  I had one engagement where one of my Tincans collided with one of my CL's and another one where same thing occurred with a couple of merchies for the IJN.  Both of these were night fights. 

All in all the, I think, the surface combats, have a more realistic "feel".

[Scott_USN]

I would agree and I will live with it currently but the idea of tweaking more for th IJN is wrong to me. I also hope the advantage of Allied Navies taken away with this patch will go away as time goes forward during the war. Making Radar more powerful as we progress as it was in reality. I will accept Japanese force domination in 1942 but by 43 44 Japanese were sorely lacking in Technology.

[stuman]

It is interesting to read about all of the different results we seeing. 3 weeks into the GC and my Surface Combat results are, well, very average seeming. Bigger, more varied forces seems to knock the hell out of smaller ones, and so forth and so on.

[Scott_USN]

Looks good to me too. Very random and rolling dice. Sometimes you win BIG sometimes you are too afraid to tell others how BIG you lost

[DarkestHour]

Has anyone fared well as the allies intercepting transport TFs mid ocean in daylight? They always seem to escape me now.

[witpqs]

I also don't see anything egregious. While I think a TF should get better odds for spotting the enemy significantly before getting spotted, that might be tougher than it looks. A speed of 20 knots is 40,000 yards per hour, or 666 yards per minute. If two TF's are closing each at 20 knots, that makes a closing speed of over 1,300 yards per minute. Even that 4,000 yard spotting advantage in the one I posted is only about 3 minutes extra warning. Things like crew quality - heck, even pure chance - can eat up those minutes quite easily.

And even higher speeds mean even less time.

[doc smith]

I posted in another thread naval actions which, to me, were not realistic. The one that stands out is a fight between the BB Haruna. Ataog CA, Isuzu, and 3 DDs vs 2 Brit DDs. Actions was at night and the Japanese both surprised and capped the T on the Brits.

Haruna took 2 torpedoes and some shell hits and a DD took a torpedo and sank. One Brit DD took one hit. Period. How can Japanese in 1941, when they were supposed to be well-trained in night fighting, with beaucoup advantages, and not waste the two Brits?

'Course, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Peace,
Doc Smith

[Scott_USN]

Brits had no problem with Night Fights that was US Navy

[doc smith]

Something like that affected Laffey's attack on the Hiei on 13 Nov 42 off Guadalcanal. The battle was a furball, but Morrison reports:

"Laffey ... also entered a disastrous argument with Hiei, passing so close that collision was barely averted. Her torpedoes, launched at too short a range, failed to arm and bounced harmlessly off the battleship's sides. Topside machine-gunners sprayed the pagoda-like bridge with 20mm and 1.1 bullets as Hiei passed, shooting. Then two large-caliber gun salvos and a torpedo in the fantail put Laffey out of action for all time."

Laffey was abandoned.

[Scott_USN]

Besides the first battle of Guadacanal the US Navy pretty much won the next two battles. The first engagement was a disaster for the US Navy but after that they pretty much put the pain on the IJN. The second battle in Oct 11-12 1942 seen the US Navy come away far better than they did in the first slugfest in August 1942, the IJN also lost 2 BB's and Cruiser and several DDs AK's in November 1942.

The first battle most remember the others they forget

[doc smith]

Astarix,

If you check a copy of Morrison's History of US Naval Ops in WW II, volume V, you will see that Laffey did not do all that damage to Hiei. She only had a few seconds of action. Other USN ships wrecked Hiei.

It's hard to tell who hit what, with whom, but Morrison suggests Laffey was not in action long enough to set the fires on Hiei. Undoubtedly, she did some damage, but it would not have penetrated the tower armor. And Admiral Abe, on Hiei, was still giving orders as it pulled out of the fight. At that time, "she was not in too bad a shape" and "had not yet been torpedoed". Kirishima had taken 1 hit from an 8" gun.

Peace,
Doc Smith

[witpqs]

Here are two more.

The USN TF is parked at Dutch Harbor to put the pain on any visitors. The first one is what you would expect. The second one is interesting. Norman Scott is the USN commander.

BTW, the first has no "CONTACT" messages, so it's harder to know what happened.

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Oct 05, 42
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Dutch Harbor at 171,50, Range 1,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
PB Keiko Maru, Shell hits 14, and is sunk
AMC Akagi Maru, Shell hits 26, and is sunk
xAP Shanghai Maru

Allied Ships
BB Colorado
BB New Mexico
BB Mississippi
DD Caldwell
DD Farragut
DD Aylwin

Japanese ground losses:
175 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 10 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 7 disabled



Low visibility due to Thunderstorms with 21% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Thunderstorms and 21% moonlight: 1,000 yards
Range closes to 7,000 yards...
Range closes to 2,000 yards...
Range closes to 1,000 yards...
Scott, Norman crosses the 'T'
AMC Akagi Maru sunk by BB New Mexico at 1,000 yards
Range increases to 2,000 yards
PB Keiko Maru sunk by BB New Mexico at 2,000 yards
Japanese Task Force Manages to Escape
Task forces break off...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Dutch Harbor at 171,50, Range 1,000 Yards

Allied aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft losses
No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
CL Oi, Shell hits 15, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Yanagi
TB Kasasagi, Shell hits 2, on fire
E Hayabusa, Shell hits 5, and is sunk
PB Eiko Maru
xAK Wales Maru, Shell hits 5, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk

Allied Ships
BB Colorado, Shell hits 6
BB New Mexico, Shell hits 3, Torpedo hits 4, and is sunk
BB Mississippi
DD Caldwell
DD Farragut, Shell hits 6, heavy fires
DD Aylwin

Japanese ground losses:
463 casualties reported
Squads: 3 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 2 destroyed, 55 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled



Low visibility due to Thunderstorms
Maximum visibility in Thunderstorms: 3,000 yards
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 30,000 yards
Range closes to 25,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 25,000 yards
Range closes to 20,000 yards...
Range closes to 15,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 15,000 yards
Range closes to 10,000 yards...
Range closes to 5,000 yards...
Range closes to 1,000 yards...
BB New Mexico sunk by CL Oi at 1,000 yards
BB Colorado engages CL Oi at 1,000 yards
E Hayabusa sunk by BB Colorado at 1,000 yards
CL Oi engages DD Farragut at 1,000 yards
DD Farragut engages xAK Wales Maru at 1,000 yards
Range increases to 2,000 yards
CL Oi sunk by BB Colorado at 2,000 yards
BB Colorado engages TB Kasasagi at 2,000 yards
DD Farragut engages PB Eiko Maru at 2,000 yards
DD Caldwell engages xAK Wales Maru at 2,000 yards
Range increases to 3,000 yards
xAK Wales Maru sunk by BB Mississippi at 3,000 yards
BB Colorado engages TB Kasasagi at 3,000 yards
DD Farragut engages TB Kasasagi at 3,000 yards
DD Yanagi engages DD Farragut at 3,000 yards
BB Colorado engages DD Yanagi at 3,000 yards
Japanese Task Force Manages to Escape
Task forces break off...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[witpqs]

I guess I should add that the moral of the second example above is "Don't let the knife fighter into knife range!"