BB's too fragile now?

[JohnDillworth]

I think it's a bit unrealistic to sink 3 of 4 BB's with single hits

""Chatfield, there seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today." David Beatty

[oldman45]

ORIGINAL: jimh009

All I know is that the Allied carrier air wings have bombed the hell out of Japanese BB's in my game, but most of the BB's seem to live on. Moreover, the bombing of Japanese BB's led to LOTS of air casualties for the Allies. It's the primary reason my carriers are now sitting in port...waiting for replacement aircraft. While I've sunk three Japanese BB's, it was anything but easy and cost-free and it required multiple air strikes over several days. Torpedoes, not surprisingly, are much more effective against BB's than bombs. The three BB's sunk in my game have the DevastatorsAvengers to thank for it...I don't think the 1000 pound bombs dropped on them did much damage.

This happend in my game too.

[DrewMatrix]

Had consective engagements (Scen 6 Allies vs AI) between 2 IJ BBs and 6 US BBs + Hornet bombing a few times. The IJ lost 1 BB. The other IJ BB and the 6 US BBs took a few hits (some of the IJ damage inflicted SBDs) and sailed away. The less damaged IJ BB had 20-2-5-1 damage (which it was fixing even while retiring).

Note that is after 2 days of air attacks and surface combat.

So at least in that example the BBs seem resilient.

[EUBanana]

I've had torpedo hits on BBs do anywhere between 5 and 40 flotation damage.  Much randomness.  But I think on average a BB can absorb 1 or 2 just fine, its when you get up to 3 or 4 that there's a fight on to get it home.  Usually 1 torpedo hit isn't enough to even get it to abort its mission.

I've had BB Washington take single torp hits (plus shell hits from cruisers) on two occasions in the Guad scenario - both times it completed its mission, and damage was so minor it was only a couple of weeks shipyard time on both occasions.

[rroberson]

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

ORIGINAL: Terminus

There's one thing all you people seem to fail to grasp here. The ships ARE NOT DIFFERENT!!! They have the same armour, the same durability, the same maneuverability rating, everything.

What's different is what can go wrong with them. Pick up on that instead of harping on about "fragile" ships.

So the next battlecry will be "The FOW is Broken!" ???[:D]

Clearly they are given that this isn't the first question regarding surface ships. I still believe Allied ships are having their way with the Imperial navy in surface battles (particuarly night ones).

[LiquidSky]

Before you alarmists start crying fire, I would suggest a couple of things...

First of all. Turn FOW off. Telling me the random lies that spew out of the mouths of your pilots as god given fact is getting a little old. I am playing a PBEM game right now with a friend of mine, and we are always 'comparing notes'. The other day, he hit my 3 CA 4CL japanese fleet with two cv air strikes, reporting mass sinkings. The result? Mostly 1's and 2's and a couple of 7's with some guns knocked out. This morning I apparently sunk the BB North Carolina with a single torp hit from a Betty. Did I? I doubt it.

The AA results are also way out of wack with reality. The combat results have so far (in 4 sorties) shot down 1.5 times as many planes as I have in the two squadrons. And the damages way more. The reality? Only about half the squadrons are shot down.

One result that does seem to bode well is that a ship is on fire. So far that has been a good indication that a ship is going to sink.

Second of all, Run a simulation several times. Should you be able to sink a ship from one shot? Of course. It should be improbable, and the only way to know that would be to run 10, 50, or even hundreds of simulations. Maybe it will be sunk 1 out of 100, or maybe 1 in 10,000...and it happened once in your game. Maybe even twice, but can you repeat it every game?

So please...keep your FOW to yourself. If you want to contribute meaningfully, by all means, turn of FOW and tell us all about the strange events that are occuring. We would all benefit from your experiences.

[rroberson]

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky


Before you alarmists start crying fire, I would suggest a couple of things...

First of all. Turn FOW off. Telling me the random lies that spew out of the mouths of your pilots as god given fact is getting a little old. I am playing a PBEM game right now with a friend of mine, and we are always 'comparing notes'. The other day, he hit my 3 CA 4CL japanese fleet with two cv air strikes, reporting mass sinkings. The result? Mostly 1's and 2's and a couple of 7's with some guns knocked out. This morning I apparently sunk the BB North Carolina with a single torp hit from a Betty. Did I? I doubt it.

The AA results are also way out of wack with reality. The combat results have so far (in 4 sorties) shot down 1.5 times as many planes as I have in the two squadrons. And the damages way more. The reality? Only about half the squadrons are shot down.

One result that does seem to bode well is that a ship is on fire. So far that has been a good indication that a ship is going to sink.

Second of all, Run a simulation several times. Should you be able to sink a ship from one shot? Of course. It should be improbable, and the only way to know that would be to run 10, 50, or even hundreds of simulations. Maybe it will be sunk 1 out of 100, or maybe 1 in 10,000...and it happened once in your game. Maybe even twice, but can you repeat it every game?

So please...keep your FOW to yourself. If you want to contribute meaningfully, by all means, turn of FOW and tell us all about the strange events that are occuring. We would all benefit from your experiences.

No fire being cried here. Facts are facts. I have something like 8 or 9 PBEM games going and I am the japanese in the bulk of them (yea I'm insane [:D] ). And I have time and time again watched Japanese surface groups bear the brunt of surface battles. I had a lone beast torpedo one of my BBs and sink it. I have watched allied surface ships dominate heavier japanese groups "at night". It's not me being alarmist its me merely commenting on what I have seen. To say that this stuff isn't happening just because it has happened to "you" is to ignore the rest of us who have seen it happen. Now is it luck of the dice (bad) maybe, but it is happening.

[pad152]

Fog of war is more like fog for players, I've seen the BC Prince of Wales reported sunk 3 times now, it's even in the list of ship ships yet, it's still sailing around. Japan seems to be fairing better in surface combat with the beta patch so far.

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: pad152
Fog of war is more like fog for players,

And as a player you are in the role of your side's high command..., who were forced to sift through this kind of "pilot optimism" throughout the war. The Allied Command soon learned to take it with a big grain of salt (and to verify it with gun camera photos and broken codes). The Japanese seemed to have accepted it much more readily, which lead to a good deal of their own wishfull thinking in planning for continual "decisive battles" into late 1944.

[John Lansford]

Well gee, Mr. LiquidSky,  thanks for the informed opinion there.  I guess noting that the BB in question was sitting in an Allied port and therefore well identified, and after the torpedo hit it disappeared and appeared on the sunk screen, isn't good enough for you?  No cripples left Davao (the entire area is full of Dutch subs), no search planes spotted a second TF, nothing.

And that's not the one that was confirmed, either.  That one was the 800kg hit from the lucky Dutch pilot; the damage report was listed as "on fire" after the attack, and I DID see a 'crippled' TF leaving the well patrolled and spotted area.  Then the TF 'lost' the larger ship and became only a pair of DD's, at which time the "sunk" appeared on the list.  I'd say those two were definites; the one I was questioning was the lone torpedo hit by a sub, since I saw no evidence of a seriously damaged ship leaving the area.
 
So, in response to your "keep your FoW out of these comments", I'd say that I'm hardly reporting what the pilots/captains tell me here, so perhaps you could think next time before you post?

[crsutton]

Too early to tell. Play on.......

[pompack]

no foul. play on... play on ... [:)]

[tigercub]

not out its a no ball.


Tiger!

[IndyShark]

Turn off FOW while playing the scenario and you can check to see if those BB's were sunk or it was FOG.

I hit a Japanese BB dozens of times with 1000 pound SAP. I thought for sure she sank. She was reported sunk but managed to get away.