Mac vs PC?

[V22 Osprey]

Mac laptops are good, but even still you can get a laptop that can play Crysis at max settings for the same price.Macbooks are only think that even come close to price of PCs.

Comparison:

MSI GT279

$1300

Mobility 4850
Duo 2.4 with turbo mode that automatically overclocks to 2.93
320 GB HDD
1600 res screen.

Macbook Pro:

$1500

9400M(Ok, come on now, that is the low power integrated graphics card on the Alienware M17x.That's sad.[:D])
2.53 Ghz Processor
320 GB HDD

So, the macbook pros I would consider, but the Mac desktops I won't even bother.$2500 base price.You get a quad core processor, 640 GB HDD, 3 GB of RAM, and sucky GT 120M.We all know I get could a machine that rapes that system easily anyday of the week for half the cost.$1500 I can have a Core i7, Blu ray drive, Dual Graphics cards, 500 GB AND Liquid Cooling.

[Mafi]

Beside all the arguments arising here versus Mac,
I must confess that for me it is the sole platform I'm using
for gaming, coding, artwork, hardware-driving
(example: http://www.sdl.claranet.de/ ),
some casual stuff, video-cutting, sound-works
and PC-emulating
since ... 1994.
It has its limitations. mainly
- no driver support from some minor, but essential hardware manufacturers,
- reduced number of games,
- disappearing backward compatibility since the introduction of Intel-processors to the Mac (I'm really missing those PPCs.
 
But despite all that, I will never return to the PC platform anymore for my private ambitions. Due to driver-hardware problems I'm fixed to a Win98-system at work. Sad enough.
 
Mafi

[mgarnett]

9400M(Ok, come on now, that is the low power integrated graphics card on the Alienware M17x.That's sad.)

The Macbook Pro comes with two graphics cards, 9400M (low power consumption) and a 9600GT M (high performance).

Cheers

Mark

[mgarnett]

Do Bootcamp and or Parallels come free with a MAC ?

Do you need to install Windows over the top to playb wargames?

Bootcamp is free with every Mac and Parallels is about $50 (I think, I'm in Australia and it's $80 in our currency)

Yes, you still need to install Windows although Bootcamp and Parallels work in different ways.

Bootcamp is basically a boot menu that allows you to boot into either OS X or Windows and run everything natively. So if you are in Windows it's exactly the same as being on a normal PC, and in OS X, well it's a Mac. The up side is that everything runs at full speed. The downside, is that to get into the other OS, you have to reboot.

Parallels is a virtual machine environment that can run many different OS's, Windows included. So, all I need to do is boot my machine into OS X, and if I want windows, I click my little Windows XP icon and after a few short seconds, I have Windows and OS X running side by side. Now, you won't be running Crysis in a VM, but as far as war games go, you will have no problems. It will run Direct3D games and I know many people who play Word of Warcraft in Parallels and have no problems at all. I also do quite a bit of software development in Windows and I don't notice any speed difference at all for that either. I run almost all of my Matrix, AGEOD and HPS games in Parallels and I have not noticed any speed problems, nor have I had any problems and I own about 20 of these games. Also, Parallels can run in a few different modes, including full screen and coherence. When running full screen all you see is Windows and anybody who came along would not know any difference and think you were running a PC. Coherence means that your Windows apps run on your Mac desktop which is really cool. I run my HPS games this way and it's great.

Another great thing is the glass mouse pad on the Apple laptops. It's super smooth and has enough functionality that I never have to click the mouse button at all (actually the mouse button is the pad itself, it clicks, there are no separate buttons) , everything is available through tapping or gestures.

I was very anti-Mac, but after using one of their laptops I would be reluctant to go back to a PC type machine. It's is a very well engineered machine.

Cheers

Mark

[Marc von Martial]

Mac and Mac OS rules, basta.[;)]

I will never get back to the Windows world for my pro and casual needs. Macs do no cost much more then comparable PCs of same built quality (!), in fact when I switched to Mac it was the price I would have had to pay for a Windows workstation compared to the Mac Pro that made me do the switch. I saved a lot of money. The OS does not get in the way of my daily workflow. That is a major time saver for me. Mac OS is not hazzle free of course, but you rarely dig into any real problems. And I can still use Windows if I want. Pretty hard the other way around.

For gaming I switch over to Bootcamp.

I recently bought a new Macbook pro 12", dumping my old Macbook. The new thing just rocks, dead silent, usability through ergonomics are almost perfect and with (real) 6 hours battery life. Recharges in no time and sleep mode actually works on Mac laptops [;)]

But, if you want to game high end games I would not really recommend an iMac. I would rather buy a Mac Pro desktop system for that. For current wargaming needs an iMac works.

Bootcamp ia native Mac OS app and come with the software. Parallels is third party software (there is other virtual Os software also) and costs around 50$. Often it is bundled with a Mac if you not buy directly at Apple.

Whenever you buy a Mac directly at Apple do not fill it with the Apple RAM or HDs, very overpriced. Instead just have it put in the minimal RAM and HD and buy third party quality RAM and HDs, saves a lot of money [;)]

[Lützow]

Apple produces well designed and foolproofed systems, but in return they deprive user control over hard- and software and let the customer pay extra for stuff he could fix for himself or get cheaper by using a PC. This kind of business policy applied when I *had* to use a Mac, as it was the solely platform to run publishing software like QuarkXPress and still does, given the fact, that Iphone has a non-interchangeable battery and requires i-tune, while a PC user can simply download at youtube.

[Marc von Martial]

You can fix a lot yourself, you just need to know where to look, same with a PC [;)]. Spareparts are available. Many Apple resellers give you a warranty extension for a few bucks. Apple Care Protection is overpriced as are many addons if you buy them directly from the Apple Store.

You can fix a lot of OS / software issues via Terminal, again like with a PC you just need to know where to look. In fact I find the general support of what you can tinker with in the OS way better then with Windows. And the information you can find on the internet is usually not as confusing as with Windows.

Third party services change iphone / ipod batteries for a low price. You can even do it yourself. Of course you loose the warranty, but then again you also would with PC parts if you fiddle with them yourself. On top of that I never had to replace any battery for my iphone or ipod. I had to replace my Nokia's battery twice though [;)]

The iPhone does not require iTunes, there is third party software for syncing available. Granted lot of it does need to be updated for the iPhone OS 3 by now, but that is up to the developers.

> while a PC user can simply download at youtube

Sorry I do not follow you there?

[Lützow]

Around 1991 I owned a i486 for office work and gaming, and a Mac IIfx for Desktop Publishing. The Apple rig was about fourfold in price and due to it's architecture one couldn't easily switch hardware devices, like graphic board or processor, but had to call on service for every intervention. While OS 7 has been more stable than Windows 3, it did not let you interfere with programs as Norton Utilies / PCTools, or simple editing of .ini files. I don't know if or how this has changed, but back to the day the whole philosophy of Apple was, to keep control of their already expensive systems in order to subsequently charge customers for everything an ambitious user could do for himself.

ORIGINAL: Marc von Martial

> while a PC user can simply download at youtube

Sorry I do not follow you there?

You can legally download music videos from youtube by using Firefox browser plugin.

[Adam Parker]

ORIGINAL: Marc von Martial

I will never get back to the Windows world for my pro and casual needs. Macs do no cost much more then comparable PCs of same built quality (!), in fact when I switched to Mac it was the price I would have had to pay for a Windows workstation compared to the Mac Pro that made me do the switch. I saved a lot of money. The OS does not get in the way of my daily workflow. That is a major time saver for me. Mac OS is not hazzle free of course, but you rarely dig into any real problems. And I can still use Windows if I want. Pretty hard the other way around.

For gaming I switch over to Bootcamp.

Marc that is a superb post - thanks. I really am liking the looks of the new iMac's and Mac Pro's. I can see no price differential between macs and high end PC's now.

I just want something that is simple, safe, inuitive and powerful. I can easily see myself running Adobe on a Mac, Mac versions of MS Office and all the Mac specific video and sound editing programs rather than having to fork out for separate editing and burning programs.

How exactly does bootcamp work then? Do you have to have XP loaded on the Mac? Is this a special XP version? And if it's XP, why isn't the system vulnerable to Windows viruses etc?

Another dumb question, does a Mac run Windows Media files?

Cheers mate,
Adam.

[Noypi53]

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

ORIGINAL: Marc von Martial

I will never get back to the Windows world for my pro and casual needs. Macs do no cost much more then comparable PCs of same built quality (!), in fact when I switched to Mac it was the price I would have had to pay for a Windows workstation compared to the Mac Pro that made me do the switch. I saved a lot of money. The OS does not get in the way of my daily workflow. That is a major time saver for me. Mac OS is not hazzle free of course, but you rarely dig into any real problems. And I can still use Windows if I want. Pretty hard the other way around.

For gaming I switch over to Bootcamp.

Marc that is a superb post - thanks. I really am liking the looks of the new iMac's and Mac Pro's. I can see no price differential between macs and high end PC's now.

I just want something that is simple, safe, inuitive and powerful. I can easily see myself running Adobe on a Mac, Mac versions of MS Office and all the Mac specific video and sound editing programs rather than having to fork out for separate editing and burning programs.

How exactly does bootcamp work then? Do you have to have XP loaded on the Mac? Is this a special XP version? And if it's XP, why isn't the system vulnerable to Windows viruses etc?

Another dumb question, does a Mac run Windows Media files?

Cheers mate,
Adam.

Hi Adam, I won't go into the + or - of Mac vs PC as it comes down to personal choice & need. I am a 1-year Windows > Mac user myself.

To use Bootcamp, you need to create a disk partition in your Mac HD. The Mac Bootcamp install program will guide you thru this. Once the partition is ready for Win XP, you need to install Win Xp using (of course) a legal copy of Win XP. There is no special XP version. I have read of guys successfully installing Vista & even Windows 7 but have not done it myself.

Unfortunately, your Win XP partition WILL be vulnerable to Windows viruses, malware, etc. That's why you still need your anti-everything software on your Windows XP. I suspect that my Mac has Window viruses but is not affected, YET. If you do send a file from your Mac to a Windows user, that file may have a Windows virus. That is what I read in some of the Mac blogs / user group posts.

My wife has been using a Mac much longer than I have & has not received any notes from her Windows-using friends of files with virus. Of course, she does not go to some of the more (ahem) sites that are a common source of these viruses.

NOTE: At the basic level, you do have to reboot from Mac OS X to BootCamp to use Win XP. There are Mac software that will allow you to run the Windows program in your BootCamp partition without having to reboot but you will have to shell out a few $$ for the software.

MP3 files run in Macs while there are free software like VLC which will run most Windows media files if you mean AVI files.

Other guys on the board may have more Mac experience can chime in if they want. The above is my 1-year experience with the Mac.

For me, the ultimate test for my Mac is when Dragon Age comes out & I try to run it on my Mac's BootCamp.

Cheers!
Noypi

[mgarnett]

Marc that is a superb post - thanks. I really am liking the looks of the new iMac's and Mac Pro's. I can see no price differential between macs and high end PC's now.

I just want something that is simple, safe, inuitive and powerful. I can easily see myself running Adobe on a Mac, Mac versions of MS Office and all the Mac specific video and sound editing programs rather than having to fork out for separate editing and burning programs.

How exactly does bootcamp work then? Do you have to have XP loaded on the Mac? Is this a special XP version? And if it's XP, why isn't the system vulnerable to Windows viruses etc?

Another dumb question, does a Mac run Windows Media files?

Hi Adam,

I have provided a short explanation as to how Parallels and Bootcamp work a couple of posts up.

Cheers

Mark

[Marc von Martial]

I have read of guys successfully installing Vista & even Windows 7 but have not done it myself.

I never tried Vista, but Windows 7 works great under Bootcamp and also as a virtual OS setup.

Any version would do, IIRC latest Parallels also supports the 64bit versions.

[Marc von Martial]

ORIGINAL: Lützow

Around 1991 I owned a i486 for office work and gaming, and a Mac IIfx for Desktop Publishing. The Apple rig was about fourfold in price and due to it's architecture one couldn't easily switch hardware devices, like graphic board or processor, but had to call on service for every intervention. While OS 7 has been more stable than Windows 3, it did not let you interfere with programs as Norton Utilies / PCTools, or simple editing of .ini files. I don't know if or how this has changed, but back to the day the whole philosophy of Apple was, to keep control of their already expensive systems in order to subsequently charge customers for everything an ambitious user could do for himself.

ORIGINAL: Marc von Martial

> while a PC user can simply download at youtube

Sorry I do not follow you there?

You can legally download music videos from youtube by using Firefox browser plugin.

Well, well, well. You make assumptions of modern Macs based on your stone age old experience with Macs [;)]
1991 is long ago. The whole mainstream desktop world was in its infant shoes back then. Heck I was still using my Amiga in 1991.

As for youtube, well. First off, you need to customize Firefox under Windows to be able to do so. It does not come out of the box what you describe as a point
Safari can also be customized. Greasekit is the magic word (Greasemonkey is the Firefox equivalent). And then again you can just use Firefox as replacement for Safari [;)]

And for Youtube videos all you need in Safari is this little bookmarklet:
http://googlesystem.blogspot.com/2008/0 ... files.html
And you even get the mp4 file with that, not a nasty vlc [;)]

So as you see, most "points" people bring up against Macs or Mac Os are purely based on being not up to date or uninformed at all.

[GoodGuy]

ORIGINAL: Marc von Martial

So as you see, most "points" people bring up against Macs or Mac Os are purely based on being not up to date or uninformed at all.

I am not sure about that. A few years ago, I tinkered with Macs at a time when DTP and sound applications, which were meant to be installed on OS 9, just loved to crash on me on the then new OS X, which alledgedly offered downward compatibility. On quite some instances, i had to reset the G-(5?) machine, because the rig froze. OS X was not an option for quite a while, if you depended on a stable and reliable machine for your business or serious hobby.

Same with Mac OS Version 10.6 :
While you can even run PowerPC applications on OSX, using Rosetta - a built-in emulator/dynamic binary translator on OSX for Intel systems, as it translates G3, G4, and AltiVec instructions, you can't run those apps on OSX which had been programmed for the G5 instruction set, specifically.
OS X 10.6 does not support Adobe Creative Suite 3, for example, so owners of CS3 have to spend a Grand and get CS4, in case they want to install the newest OSX.
There is a huge list containing Apps and the few Games for the Mac, (reminds me of the lists floating around when XP had been released), trying to evaluate what would work on 10.6 and what not. There are also quite some video/sound tools which would start on 10.6, but which would not let the user access either some or any of the functions. Quite some Mac media apps insist on intel-based Macs (boxee, etc.) these days.

Owners of a ton of OS 9 apps can't run their major programs on OSX, and they depend on the developers of the particular programs to offer crossgrades or create compatibility patches. The latter usually won't happen.
While this partially happened to PC users when they upgraded from Win98 to XP, this kind of missing downward compatibility happened to Mac users at least twice, since OSX had been released in 2001, and Apple keeps adding new functions and (potential) incompatibilities with each major update. Selling OSX 10.6 for 25 bucks may not help there, if you have to upgrade expensive applications like CS3 or similar.

Regarding the price:
Desktop Macs are overpriced. Basically, you do pay extra, for the design, the brand name and maybe even for the reputation, very well.
A custom PC will always be way cheaper than a Mac, but even ready-made stuff from let's say Gateway or Dell will be cheaper. There are quite some Apple products where you either depend on the Apple service center (e.g. to exchange the storage-battery in Iphones) or on overpriced Apple spare parts, whereas - with a PC - you just replace the particular part from a random shop in your area.
The worst Mac I ever saw was the Mac Cube. While the basic idea, to have a passive cooling solution (no fans inside), appeared to be pretty neat, the Cube was terribly underpowered and it had only one or 2 memory slots, so upgrades were pretty limited. It looked good, it was small, but it didn't offer much value for the bucks.
The most recent CPUs and chipsets for PC systems will always be faster and cheaper (if you consider the performance, and the ability to put in hardware upgrades, you get for your money) than Mac systems, unless Apple would switch to what I'd call an "open case" policy for their Macs, giving the Mac user the freedom to put in the hardware HE wants to use.
But in this case, Apple's right to exist (at least as a computer hardware-manufacturer) would diminish, as they could then just restrict themselfs to publish their operating system, which in fact, is more advanced (and powerful), in theory, due to its unix core. This advantage, though, is often undermined by the fact that a new Mac's CPU or video performance is often below the actual tech level of the most recent PCs (which aren't necessarily from the High-End category).

Macs are an interesting option for people who aren't tech-savvy enough or who can't be arsed to run a protected and safe XP environment (eg. disabling services, configuring firewalls, reduce risk of a virus/hacker attack). But since Apples are getting more popular, Mac users will see an increasing number of virus attacks and security exploits.
If you compare the OS X and XP/Windows 7 workflow, OSX has some minor advantages, but if you look at the applications, it's rather just a "religious" question, if you want to use 2-3 mouse buttons and a wheel, or an Apple mouse with one button. I'm using a 5-button mouse, and the workflow on my PC is even faster than on a Mac with OSX, now. Windows 7 may even be more like a mac, as quite some things had been stripped off and simplified.

Stability: It's a myth that macs are more stable. And IF a mac freezes, you really have to reboot it, you can't just kick the task like in XP/Win7 (correct me if i am wrong, Marc [:D]).

[Hertston]

Macs are an interesting and overly expensive option (they have the looks though, I'll give them that). For cheap and totally grief-free home computing I thoroughly recommend Ubuntu Linux on desktop or notebook. The only reason I have a Windows PC at all is gaming.

[V22 Osprey]

Well, the only reason is to get a mac is the Apps, you have to admit you can't beat mac when it comes apps.Some of the apps even on my iphone I wish I had on my laptop.

Other than that though, a Mac is just a PC.It's uses the same damn parts, it just has slick looking case and an apple logo on it and different OS.$2200 I get an I Mac with:
3.06 Intel Core 2 Duo(Ok, this isn't a core i7, plus it even isn't a Quad)
4 GB RAM
1 TB storage
GT 130 512MB

I'm getting this straight from the Mac site.Now, with a PC I could easily(I repeat EASILY) put in Liquid cooling, dual GTX 260's, Core i7, and blue ray for the same amount of money or even less if you know where to look.

EDIT:I'm not basing this off alienware, expense wise, they are just as guilty as Mac IMO.(So don't throw Alienware in my face)

[Marc von Martial]

ORIGINAL: GoodGuy

ORIGINAL: Marc von Martial

So as you see, most "points" people bring up against Macs or Mac Os are purely based on being not up to date or uninformed at all.

I am not sure about that. A few years ago, I tinkered with Macs at a time when DTP and sound applications, which were meant to be installed on OS 9, just loved to crash on me on the then new OS X, which alledgedly offered downward compatibility. On quite some instances, i had to reset the G-(5?) machine, because the rig froze. OS X was not an option for quite a while, if you depended on a stable and reliable machine for your business or serious hobby.

OSX was a major step, almost like from Windows 95 to Windows 98.
With regards to the new 10.6 and people not getting the cut that has to be done. Well it would be the same as asking for major applications written for Windows 3.1 to work on Windows 7.

OS X 10.6 does not support Adobe Creative Suite 3, for example, so owners of CS3 have to spend a Grand and get CS4, in case they want to install the newest OSX.

Which is a pitty I agree, however since CS3 is a great package you could either wait for CS5 or simply not use OS 10.6. It is not that you ned 10.6 right now
As for the update price from CS3 to CS4, well I paid 500$ for that on Amazon

There is a huge list containing Apps and the few Games for the Mac, (reminds me of the lists floating around when XP had been released), trying to evaluate what would work on 10.6 and what not. There are also quite some video/sound tools which would start on 10.6, but which would not let the user access either some or any of the functions. Quite some Mac media apps insist on intel-based Macs (boxee, etc.) these days.

And at the same time you get updates for 10.6 compatibility on a daily basis. My apps all work now, and I had minor issues with some plugins / scripts that digged deep into the OS, I did not expect them to work when I upgraded.

Owners of a ton of OS 9 apps can't run their major programs on OSX, and they depend on the developers of the particular programs to offer crossgrades or create compatibility patches. The latter usually won't happen.
While this partially happened to PC users when they upgraded from Win98 to XP, this kind of missing downward compatibility happened to Mac users at least twice, since OSX had been released in 2001, and Apple keeps adding new functions and (potential) incompatibilities with each major update. Selling OSX 10.6 for 25 bucks may not help there, if you have to upgrade expensive applications like CS3 or similar.

The 10.6 upgrade is not something you have to install. Nobody is forced at gun point here. However if you upgrade the OS works even faster and more stable and ha s few nice additions. Apple had to do the cut to get into 64bit. The time for such a big thing is never right. And incompatibilities with such a step are to be expected.

Regarding the price:
Desktop Macs are overpriced. Basically, you do pay extra, for the design, the brand name and maybe even for the reputation, very well. A custom PC will always be way cheaper than a Mac, but even ready-made stuff from let's say Gateway or Dell will be cheaper.

I was talking about workstations.

There are quite some Apple products where you either depend on the Apple service center (e.g. to exchange the storage-battery in Iphones) or on overpriced Apple spare parts, whereas - with a PC - you just replace the particular part from a random shop in your area.

I talked about this earlier already. A Mac is as easy to repair yourself as a PC is. You can get spareparts online and you get instructions online. I did repairs myself several times. For a few bucks on spareparts. Apples service center is just as overpriced as any hardware manufacturers service center, or let's say the BMW or Mercedes direct service, that is where these guys can make some money, if you pay for that extra money it is your own fault[;)].

Macs are an interesting option for people who aren't tech-savvy enough or who can't be arsed to run a protected and safe XP environment (eg. disabling services, configuring firewalls, reduce risk of a virus/hacker attack)

.

I did built my own PCs for almost a decade. I would call myself tech and security savy. The switch to Mac however freed up a lot of time for me that I otherwise had to put into repairing the PC or the OS. In 5 years I never had to reinstall the OS a single time or repair a single part on the MacPro, it simply runs and runs and runs and runs.
It feels like any task, from simply plugin in a guest Laptop into your WIFI to major cleaning up the OS is all way simpler and easier to handle then on any Windows system I used. I'm not religious about Apple or MacOs, but for me it simply is a major time saver.
Not to speak of the huge ammounts of RAM I can put in the machine and actually use it [:)]

But since Apples are getting more popular, Mac users will see an increasing number of virus attacks and security exploits.

I tend to agree, however Macs are already popular and still there is not much viruses etc. around.

If you compare the OS X and XP/Windows 7 workflow, OSX has some minor advantages, but if you look at the applications, it's rather just a "religious" question, if you want to use 2-3 mouse buttons and a wheel, or an Apple mouse with one button. I'm using a 5-button mouse, and the workflow on my PC is even faster than on a Mac with OSX, now. Windows 7 may even be more like a mac, as quite some things had been stripped off and simplified.

You are joking about the mouse buttons right? The Apple Mighty Mouse has more then one button (this one button thing is from the stoneages) and you can use any other mouse you want, with full button support.

I agree on Windows 7, I have it installed under Parallels and I really kind of like what I see. Well, see in terms of the OS, not it's visuals [;)]

Stability: It's a myth that macs are more stable. And IF a mac freezes, you really have to reboot it, you can't just kick the task like in XP/Win7 (correct me if i am wrong, Marc [:D]).

I said above that Mac OS is not perfect.
Macs can freeze, yes, I witnessed this 2 times in 5 years powerusing mine. That were freezes were you simply had to pull the plug. However, if you do that nothing breaks
[:D]

Task kicking? Man this is way easier, reliable and even more stable under MacOS. It is called "Force Quit", if you do it it quits the process even in such a way that you can restart the app without having to reboot the whole OS. You can even kill the "Finder" restart it and continue to use it. Now try to do that with the Windows "Desktop".

[Lützow]

If both platforms are equal in regard to hardware nowadays, one could simply purchase a retail version of Apple's OSX and install it on his PC. There would be no reason to buy a genuine Mac anymore, unless he wants it for the the design factor.

[Marc von Martial]

ORIGINAL: Lützow

If both platforms are equal in regard to hardware nowadays, one could simply purchase a retail version of Apple's OSX and install it on his PC. There would be no reason to buy a genuine Mac anymore, unless he wants it for the the design factor.

hackintosh [;)]

[killroyishere]

PC's as always are clearly the game winner when it comes to Mac vs PC. Next comes cost. You can get so much more from a PC than you can a Mac when you breakdown costs of hardware. Stability comes from the software and drivers used to run it so there's no real competition here between the two stabily competition comes from the designers of software complying with the OS of the specific computers. Does Dosbox work on a Mac? Will Macs run PC games without an emulator? PC's are the clear winners hands down. You couldn't give me a Max because if you did I would just sell it and buy lots of new hardware or games for my PC. [8D]