Japanese steam roll in China

[erstad]

ORIGINAL: aztez

..and before anybody starts jumping around and calling that statement as an call for deathstar chinese movement than just read the following.

"Chinese don't have much in terms of offensive power which is good"

Yeah, I would agree with that. I've seen calls for the Chinese to "go where the Japanese aren't." Not sure that would actually work. It takes too long to get anywhere, and odds are you'll be spotted on the way. Using the rail lines and major roads, the target can often be reinforced before you even get there. Trust me on this one [;)]

Also, the IJA poor experience/morale units often get heavy disablements on attacks, I don't recall stats but maybe even like 50%. I would guess the Chinese are the same way. Even if they succeed in taking an objective they will likely be trashed and probably wouldn't hold against a counterattack.

I'm with Brady, consolidate and hunker down. (If I can ever get these turns going faster, maybe I'll start another PBEM as allies and put these ideas into practice!)

[treespider]

Not sure why everyone says Ichang is indefensible as the Japanese...I've held it twice now...and plan on continuing to hold it. It ties down all of those lovely Chinese corps that could be used to defend Nanyang. However to hold it the japanese have to commit additional forces as well.

IMO Nanyang is the key to Northern China. Its loss to the Japanese will unhing the defensive positions at Loyang. From Nanyang the Japanese have two avenues of advance open to them - the road from Nanyang to Sian, and the other southern road that threatens to isolate all of Northern China from Chungking.

Changsha is not worth the effort for the Japanese as the forts start relatively high and the chinese have a bunch of large relatively decent corps within easy reach of Changsha.

The other avenue of advance for the Japanese is to advance through Chuhsien and Wenchow toward Kanhsien and Middle China.

As the Chinese defend defend defend. You don't have the engineers to reduce Japanese forts nor the supply. Use the "guerilla" corps as feints and diversions and don't worry if they die they reappear in Chungking 30 days later.

Bring the AVG to China...better to tear up the Nates in China than to lose the AVGs to Zeros and Oscars over Singapore.

[Astarix]

ORIGINAL: aztez

Good tips Astarix.

As said it is quite a diffrent game vs human opponent. I have no doubt you can kick AI all the way back to Japan.

I'm just trying to hold on. Remember the AI doesn't have a garrison requirement. I've noticed that it is pulling units out of Manchuria and Korea to fight in China and the SRA, and the coast of China is almost totally undefended. The AI can throw everything including the Kitchen Sink at its opponent in China.

Every attempt I have made to counterattack where the AI isn't has lead to really bloody results for me. The only way I have been able to stop the AI is by forting up in rugged terrain and using the tactics I described above. It's going to be late '43 into '44 before I feel secure doing anything in China. For now, I'm simply happy to build up my defenses and bide my time.

And yes, the AI isn't all that brilliant, but about the only question I have about how its played so far is the use of unescorted/unsuported invasion convoys. Compared to Stock, the AI is brilliant,if they can just tweak how it treats the Naval side of things, it could be really dangerous.

[khyberbill]

As the Chinese defend defend defend. You don't have the engineers to reduce Japanese forts nor the supply. Use the "guerilla" corps as feints and diversions and don't worry if they die they reappear in Chungking 30 days later.

"defend defend defend" This is a nice thing to do, but not always achievable. My opponent bought out the artillery from Manchuko, combined this with the available artillery and armor from China, massed them in a city and bombarded. I had decent strength, rested troops, morale above 50 and lvl 4 forts. I was destroyed by the artillery. Then when pushed into retreat, the armor in reserve pursues and has a field day. I questioned my opponent about supplies and he said that he had no problems keeping the new "death star" (my words) supplied by using the new toggle to increase supply in selected cities, and in fact, that surprised him. In fact, by trying to defend in cities with lvl 3 or 4 forts, I was facilitating my destruction. Unfortunately, Chinese troops move very slowly off the main railroad and limits their ability to attack or disrupt in rear areas.

We stopped the game in early March 1942 and restarted with some limits in China. An aggressive JFB should be able to pacify China in a short time with the game as currently constructed if this is their strategic objective. Only if troops from Manchuko are hard coded to stay there, like some US troops are hard coded, can probably correct this situation, or of course, by HR.

As always, ymmv.

[erstad]

ORIGINAL: treespider

Not sure why everyone says Ichang is indefensible as the Japanese...

Not everyone [:D] Although that was the biggest single decision I agonized over (more than even the PI, DEI, Pearl,etc.)

ORIGINAL: treespider
I've held it twice now...and plan on continuing to hold it. It ties down all of those lovely Chinese corps that could be used to defend Nanyang. However to hold it the japanese have to commit additional forces as well.

Yeah, you have to be prepared to go big or go home.

[Streptokok]

ORIGINAL: khyberbill

Means Jap player is using his good units to attack while leaving those RGC's defending.
However this requires alot of shock attacking that depletes Jap units, wonder what happens to units after 1-3 weeks of shock attacking and moving around.
And it seems that allied player hasnt exploited the fact that Jap bases are now defended by weak units since his truly Jap divisions are on attack.

My opponent has captured numerous cities from me in China and Burma with lots of bombardment, and not one shock attack.

I tried bombardments, didnt work [8|] I should prorably use more arty units then.
And I have a post about ground combat in China and deliberate attack, basicly i tested old 2 to 1 force ratio from stock witp, this usualy means victory over weaker China units with exp 25/25, so I had more than twice attacking troops almost double AV and fought in hex controled by me so defender didnt have fort bouns and yet 2x force didnt manage to rout Chinesee units.

This is something I just cant get used to nor can I quite understand why 25000 good, rested and supplied Jap units are unable to win over 10000 China troops. At least I cant understand why I got 1:2 odds with this, should at least be 1:1 [8|]

[Historiker]

As I said:
If you use every useless unit with low XP for garrison duty, you don't have  any of those left for combat! In fact, they perfectly fit the initial requirements, as if the designers calculated this!

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: khyberbill

As the Chinese defend defend defend. You don't have the engineers to reduce Japanese forts nor the supply. Use the "guerilla" corps as feints and diversions and don't worry if they die they reappear in Chungking 30 days later.

"defend defend defend" This is a nice thing to do, but not always achievable. My opponent bought out the artillery from Manchuko, combined this with the available artillery and armor from China, massed them in a city and bombarded. I had decent strength, rested troops, morale above 50 and lvl 4 forts. I was destroyed by the artillery. Then when pushed into retreat, the armor in reserve pursues and has a field day. I questioned my opponent about supplies and he said that he had no problems keeping the new "death star" (my words) supplied by using the new toggle to increase supply in selected cities, and in fact, that surprised him. In fact, by trying to defend in cities with lvl 3 or 4 forts, I was facilitating my destruction. Unfortunately, Chinese troops move very slowly off the main railroad and limits their ability to attack or disrupt in rear areas.

I found the same thing during pre-release testing. If the Japanese are patient and systematic, they can chew their way through any Chinese defense with massed artillery and bombardments..., and there is very little the Allies can do except try to distract them.

This doesn't really "feel" right. The Japanese had made good progress at the start of the "China Incident", but by 1940-41 they were pretty much "stalled out" and going nowhere. That's a big reason why they went into Indo-China, and why they wanted to sieze Burma..., in hopes of isolating the Chinese and breaking their resistance. If it had been as easy as the game makes it, they would never have had to get into a position where they felt they had to take on the West.

[khyberbill]

If the Japanese are patient and systematic,

The developers are aware of the situation. And it doesnt require much patience, just enough to continue to buy out artillery. My opponent, Don, sent a turn to one developer and he told Don that it was working as designed. Without the HRs we now have in place, I would not bother playing the game. Another of the developers did mention that the forces had to be bought out, but Don was doing that. I suspect as other JFB learn of the ease of movement in China, and in Burma, that you will read more discussion on the forum. Pre-release discussions had mentioned that Japan might be hobbled in China if too aggressive by supply, but again, Don is pleasantly surprised that he can keep the troops up front supplied and on the move.

[erstad]

Since there seems to be a lot of interest in China, I'll mention that in my game versus aztez I've only bought out two artillery units (8th Ind. and 5th Ind.) from Manchuria. I've bought maybe half a dozen armor units (mix of real units and the recon regiments) and a good chunk of airpower. I think I bought a couple small baseforces too. (I did buy out the second air div HQ, but that didn't go to china).

Not trying to make any particular point, just providing some background info.

[Barb]

This could be the root of "Bombardment killing thousands". When the Japs are able to buy out majority of their Artillery, tanks and air force from Kwantung (Which they never couldnt do without inviting the red bear openly) then you will see this units mauling the Chinese mercilessly. Could be considered "gamey" to buy specialist forces without balancing and mixing them with normal combat formations - i think the "normal" attitude would be to buy say Independent Mixed Brigade - containing Co of tanks, bn of artillery and 3-4 infantry battalions..

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: Streptokok

ORIGINAL: khyberbill

Means Jap player is using his good units to attack while leaving those RGC's defending.
However this requires alot of shock attacking that depletes Jap units, wonder what happens to units after 1-3 weeks of shock attacking and moving around.
And it seems that allied player hasnt exploited the fact that Jap bases are now defended by weak units since his truly Jap divisions are on attack.

My opponent has captured numerous cities from me in China and Burma with lots of bombardment, and not one shock attack.

I tried bombardments, didnt work [8|] I should prorably use more arty units then.
And I have a post about ground combat in China and deliberate attack, basicly i tested old 2 to 1 force ratio from stock witp, this usualy means victory over weaker China units with exp 25/25, so I had more than twice attacking troops almost double AV and fought in hex controled by me so defender didnt have fort bouns and yet 2x force didnt manage to rout Chinesee units.

This is something I just cant get used to nor can I quite understand why 25000 good, rested and supplied Jap units are unable to win over 10000 China troops. At least I cant understand why I got 1:2 odds with this, should at least be 1:1 [8|]

General rule for attacking (not just in game) is to have a 3:1 advantage in troops and equipment. That is what I try to achieve. I'm not talking AV in game either, purely number of troops.

[PMCN]

What I notice is that artillary is over rated. Damage against dug in troops by artillary is rarely that severe. Yet I continually see it, makes you wonder why it wasn't occuring in WW1. Also artillary and tanks in urban areas were less than useless. This isn't a case of upping the defeneders AV after combat it should be a case of lowering the defensive ability of the tanks to near zero and artillary should not do much again. Also tanks without proper infantry support should suffere a huge penalty. The japanese tanks could be defeated by anti-tank rifles and a 2lber would have no problems with them.

The defenders artillary is the most effective artillary as it is firing on units moving up to attack and during a shock attack defender artillary should have a hay day.

The real problem with the shock attacks is the abnormally high damage they do. Losses are almost always 10:1 and that is wholy absurd. Also I notice that a lot of times the japanese are getting squads destroyed results while the allies are mainly getting squads disabled. So overall the losses are less important to the japanese since they are rarely hard. Also I've seen deliberate attacks failing at 1:36 odds yet no substantial casualties to the japanese.

The other thing is it is far to easy to reduce fortifications given the time and effort needed to produce them. Trench lines, minefields and sighted in guns are not so easily lost.

Generally what I see is abnormally short combats. I also agree whole heartedly that I go by numbers of men and yes 3:1 would be nice, what agrevates me is when the japanese do a 1:1 attack in terms of men and get massive casualties from what should be a marginal odds attack.

[Mynok]

Yes, but who are they fighting? The Chinese are awful troops and did not stand up to regular IJA troops.

[Q-Ball]

In general, I think it's fair to say that China is extremely difficult to get "right" with the AE engine. That is no fault of the developers, but rather a function of the impossibility to model the political and economic factors of the Sino-Japanese conflict.

The Japanese DID steamroll the Chinese in the Ichi-Go offensive in Dec '44, in the only real offensive effort the Japanese undertook during the war with the US. Prior to that, the Japanese were stalled, partly due to Chinese stiffening, partly because the last thing they wanted to do was capture more countryside (where they never had much control), and also because the return on effort expended just wasn't bringing value.

It is also difficult to model Chinese difficulties, specifically the lack of Kuomintang central control at times over generals, animosity between KMT and Communists. The Chinese troops were very poor, and Chaing knew it, which is why they didn't initiate action.

What is "right" in AE? I think if the Japanese player chooses to make it a priority, they should be able to roll the Chinese. It could be that in AE, that doesn't cost enough in terms of supplies, and brings too much of a return in terms of "VPs" and captured industry (IRL, there wasn't a ton there, and of course, the Empire wasn't worred about VPs).

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: Mynok


Yes, but who are they fighting? The Chinese are awful troops and did not stand up to regular IJA troops.

Not all of them, some of the Chinese units were well-trained and equipped and could stand toe to toe with an equal Japanese force. The problem is that those units were generally tied up guarding Chiang Kai-shek or some other warlord instead of fighting the Japanese. The Chinese even had a number of Vickers light tanks and there was at least one armored battle in central China.

[Mynok]

Sure, but doesn't really affect the fact that whatever you will likely fight in China as the Japanese in AE is going to be extremely poor quality.

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: Mynok


Sure, but doesn't really affect the fact that whatever you will likely fight in China as the Japanese in AE is going to be extremely poor quality.

No arguments here. Historically they had a few that could fight well, but in game they're all fodder.

[racndoc]

I dont think that Japan could steam roll China in 1941. Japan had already been at war with China for 4 years and had suffered some serious reverses....notably 60,000 IJA troops were cut off at Taierhchwang in April 1938...and Japanese administrative problems increased exponentially as they occupied more Chinese territory. If Japan "could have" steam rolled China in 1941 then they "would have" without involving the US, Great Britain and the Netherlands in a world war.

[dasboot1960]

Thanks for telling me about Sinyang, I'll have to look...........