How are captured units represented?

[byron13]

Gus raises a good point. Capturing military ships was rare enough that it should not have any affect on the a game with the scope of WitP. But if the programmers did try and factor it into the programming, there would inevitably be time when the ship was captured under ridiculous circumstances, it would get posted on this forum, and all of us here would question the "bugginess" of the program.

If you leave ship capture out of the game, none of us will notice it is missing. If you put it in, some of us will have problems with the way it is implemented. Given the risk/reward, it is better to leave it out.

(However, I could see capturing merchants if you capture a port in lightning attack - you know, attacking like a vicious jack rabbit . . .)

[Supervisor]

I would say that any ship "captured" would most likely turn out to be a scuttled ship which is found to be recoverable. This would mean many months work to get it to where it could even go to sea, much less fight. It would most likely then be shipped back to Japan (as I can see only the Japanese getting enough benefits out of refloating and repairing major ships) for repair and complete refit. And, as was done with the destroyer, much of the armament (if not all) would be replaced with Japanese equipment. It was basically the hull & engines that were kept on the destroyer.

I couldn't say about the merchant shipping. Generally, it would be the same as warships. If it can sortie and get the flock out of town, then it would do so, otherwise, they would scuttle the ship. If the crew wouldn't, I would think the military would (to keep it out of the hands of the enemy).

Early in the war, with surprise and confusion, it might be a bit easier to get one (maybe even unsunk) in port, but later on it become almost impossible (especially if the fall of the port could be seen coming).

[Adnan Meshuggi]

Well, first at all, i like the idea of capture a enemy ship....

but it should be rare, maybe only in ports....

On the other hand, just think about the following situation.

The enemy has many ships in a port.
Now following possibilities can happen
a.) Your troops catch the enemy by surprise (night attack, break through with chaos by the enemy) or you sunk one ship in the harbor entrance... the rest is trapped.
b.) the enemy has only some light forces, you apear with, lets say the yamato, nagato and 5 heavy cruisers by surprise in front of this harbour... nobosy would escape the ships into sure death
c.) paratroopers (allied side) invade a undefended harbor with only some helpless sailors

I think, in such cases, it should be depend on such factors like moral, combat rediness and luck.

Also, the damage on the ship/ships could be caluclate for the factors

Time (how long had the enemy time to prepare the ships/items to be destroyes)

Moral (how good is the moral, are they fillipinos who wnat to go home, US Rangers etc.)

Readiness (paniced, supressed by art-fire, many deads by air/sea attacks...)

Resources to damage/sunk ships/material
(if you have NO TNT to blow a bridge, it is difficult to destroy the bridge.... so the same to undefended merchants...

The result of such capturing should be also important...

if a american warship with radar equippment is sunk in chaos (and very short time) it could be a chance that such a radar could come into jap hands undamaged or only lightly damaged.... like the rotterdam-radar of the brits.... or allways secret informations can fall in the hand of the enemy... and and and

sure it is wrong that you catch with every port you conquer, secrets, undamaged warships or even fully ready airplanes, but it should be a possibility of such things.

To repair a sunken sub in harbour is a easy thing, and even if you don´t use the sub, you can learn about your enemy, this is also for both sides true.

Maybe we can build in a surprise attack option (with high risk) witch is neccesary for such succsess - and this option is only posible if you are unnoticed by the enemy, have a huge advantage etc....

this would change your strategy too. To seek informations or material, you must risk more... and the chance is very low, but worthy...

An other point who is important, how do we handle the port blockade thing... i mean, if a ship in a atoll with only a very small way through is sunk there... the whole harbor is finished for some weeks AND the ships in the atoll are trapped... or in the pearl harbor case, i remember, that nearly one battleship could have blocked the only way out of pearl, that would have been very very bad for the USA. So we should build in such possibilities, depending of the quality of a captain, luck, errors and so on.

I like the idea of a trapped fleet in a harbor and you have to wait until you could come out....

[byron13]

Guys, I'm telling you: this all sounds great in theory, but it will cause problems.

Capturing ships will become an objective, and operations will be planned around the possibility of capturing the capital ships of the enemy, which is unrealistic. However, I would bet that most of you will replay a turn in which one of your battleships is captured. "No, not realistic in this situation. It wouldn't have happened this way."

Except for merchants, there just isn't enough benefit or impact on the strategic picture to warrant the resulting confusion. As far as capturing technology like radar, I hope it is not factored into the game. Sure, it would be fun to capture radar technology. What about code machines, enemy aircraft for R&D purposes? What about capturing a Japanese destroyer, loading it up with commandos, and sailing it into a harbor with a Japanese carrier and blowing it up? Awhile ago there was a thread that asked if some of the following activities would be allowed:

- the attempt by the Japanese to replicate pearl harbor with floatplanes from the rendevous point of the island of french frigate shoals (this attempt was thwarted due to code breaking)
- the Japanese use of floatplanes to bomb the pacific NW forests and other similar attempts
- using the Yamato as a giant kamikaze to beach itself on okinawa and be used as a beach battery
- Japanese shelling of a california oil refinery in 12/41

You've got to draw the line somewhere. This is a grand strategic game, and these minor events simply don't effect the outcome of the game in any material sense. They also take time to program and, with each new minor event programmed, an increased risk that there will be a bug.

But an even bigger problem is the confusion caused. In BTR, Gary programmed in some neat random events or had variables affecting things that were not obvious and were not mentioned in the rules. The rules were quite complete and thorough, but there is no way they can spill enough ink to properly cover these kinds of variables. Anyway, many of these hidden variables either caused bugs or were thought to be bugs until someone went in and looked at the code.

What will happen with ship capture and especially technology capture is that, at first, people complained about the X problem and the Y bug until it is explained that it was a design feature. "Hey, the Japanese didn't have radar on their ships until _____. Why are they getting it early? Must be a bug/design problem." People will whine on the forum.

Once they realize there is the possibility of one of these events occurring, they will try and game around it. "Okay, capture should only be possible if I'm surprised and I'm in a harbor with a narrow passage that can be blocked." Suprise! You have ships captured that you don't believe should have been captured. More whining on the forum.

The next step will be an analysis of the parameters under which a particular variable will occur, and everyone will whine about the parameters. Capture shouldn't occur if the assaulting army came from the land side of the port; there should be airborne forces required; there should be at least a 3:1 superiority of ships on location, etc. More whining.

As neat as these ideas are, there is a limit to how much can and should be designed into a game like this. Trust me, you will be much more satisfied with the game if minor events like these are not modeled at all than if they are modeled and either (i) you don't know how they are modeled or (ii) you don't agree with the way they were modeled.

Just my two cents. Flame me, brothers, I'm ready.

[Supervisor]

I definitely agree that there should be no specific "attempt" to capture a ship allowed. Any capture should be a rare circumstance; after all, the largest actual capture - the US destroyer Stewart in Java, was raised after having been blown up in floating drydock and sunk (along with the drydock). Of course, she was also the largest ship that I know of that was scuttled in harbor (or shallow water) that was available for salvage.

Now, in actuality, this is something of more use for the Japanese than it would be for the US. Practically, it wouldn't be worth the bother for the US as they were building ships faster (& cheaper) than the time it would take to rebuild the captured vessel. The Japanese, though, could use any hull afloat, which is essentially why the Stewart was raised in Java. It also took them about eight months to get it back to usable (and they waited a year before they attempted it). Plus another several months rebuilding back in Japan later on. The US armament was removed and captured Dutch army armaments were used on her (until her refit in Japan). They never got more than 3 of the 4 boilers back online (and initially only 2), so there there should be a corresponding hit in performance. After the refit, it could attain 26 knots (and that's the best it regained). So, captured ships & equipment were used. It wasn't quick, but another ASW vessel in mid-1943 was well worth the trouble for the Japanese.

I would still stick to the possibility of it happening, but it would have to be of a ship that cannot sortie (as was the case with the Stewart above). Any ship that could sortie, would (at least naval vessels would - I would also figure that the merchants would too, as they wouldn't want to be captured if they could avoid it). That's all there is to that. And, after being sunk, salt water can do a pretty good number on much of the equipment (especially electonics).

It won't break my heart whether it is there or not. Be interesting if it were there (adds a little variability, and it did happen, if extremely rarely).

[mdiehl]

I like the idea of capture, even capture at sea, but there should be a cost, planning, and implementation involved. There were at least two captures at sea in WW2, maybe more.

One was a RN operation on a U-Boat in, IIRC, the North Sea, that resulted in the recovery of an Enigma box. The event was made recently into a really bad (that is, "Hollywood History As Usual") movie in which the RN marines became American commandoes who crewed the boat through underwater battles.... just ghastly. Unlike in the horrid movie, the sub was scuttled at sea.

The other was the U505 incident. (see Daniel Vincent Gallery). That was a preplanned op with special boarding parties trained in advance. Could only happen under some really ideal circumstances (like, not in heavy sees, boat not sinking too fast, demo charges and booby traps not detonating when boarding party enters boat, and so forth).

With a surface vessel abandoned adrift it would be easier. But not too easy. I suspect the chief reason why the Japanese torpedoed Lexington was the she seemed clearly unsalvageable, given the "flames shooting from stem to stern" and other descriptions. Even assuming that it was salvageable, the equipment wasn't there to attempt it. So the Japanese did what any decent Mariner would do: scuttle an obvious and dangerous threat to navigation.

The US should be allowed it if Japan is allowed it. The material gain is not so great. That is, for example, the USN hardly needs one of those oversized submersible I-class or RO class barges when it has much better boats coming off the quays. But the intelligence, the assessment of torpedoes and so forth, .... that would be useful. Imagine for example that at Wake one of the IJN DDs is carrying Type 93a torpedoes and is sunk in shallow water. Then Wake is successfully defended or never attacked - or at Midway a Japanese DD takes a bomb hit and is abandoned, presumed dead, only to be boarded by a technical crew from a US sub. Or, if you like, pretend Lexington is burning but the IJN boards her anyway just long enough to swipe elements of the radar array and oscilloscope.

[Hartmann]

Whatever you do, please don't make this into a "pirates" game ... IMO the best idea is to restrict capturing to ships which are in a captured port and so badly damaged that they do no make more than say 5 knots. Maybe allow capturing at sea for the same sort of nearly wrecked ships if they are *alone* (after any escort was sunk or fled) AND the weapons are disabled.

Hartmann

[Wasp]

Ok, I didn't mean to put too much emphasis on captured units that the it would take away from the game. Just like salt: Too much and it's bad, just enough and it makes it better. Like some people mentioned, it would be good to have it with some restrictions. For example a few conditions should have to be achieved in order for units to be captured: This should be something that a player doesn't play for, but should be more of a surprise type of factor in the game. Like I said, too much of anything is not good.

1. A surprise attack on a port: Should have 1/250 or 1/500 chance of capturing ships so that you don't end up capturing a whole fleet of ships? (the unit have to be trapped with no way out for this to happen) What do you think?

2. Ships that are sunk in shallow water, and not damaged too heavily (again maybe another ratio of 1/250, 1/500 or maybe even more?) should be allowed to be salvaged. (Of course the player should be penalized by being forced to dock the ship for a period of time for refit, repair, etc. (Perhaps a period of 10~16 months?). I know, this might upset some of you as being too an worthless idea, but just another idea for you guys out there. Plus just another option for the game? (All this could create more opportunities for both players.... Even though this favors the Japanese more due to their lack of shipbuilding)

I understand some of my ideas might be lame and crazy, but I just wanted to throw some ideas for everyone outhere. Give me some feedback, What do you think? All comments are welcome: Positive or negative. I'm all ears.

Cheers

[Supervisor]

The US should be allowed it if Japan is allowed it.

Didn't say they couldn't, just that it would be more useful for the Japanese. No real point for the US, and, if the ship is sunk (most likely scenario), they wouldn't bother to raise her (not enough gain for the trouble). But if capture is included, then both sides should have the ability to so.

Maybe have a dialog box popup that states something like "x looks to be salvagable, do you wish to start salvage operations?". Then you say "Yes" or "No" and some of your base support personnel are made unavailable until the ship is afloat again (at which point it just becomes another damaged ship in port). At that point, the base personnel become available again. Salvage could be cancelled at any time to release the personnel immediately.

As for equipment like the torpedos, etc., those are easier to salvage than the whole ship.

As for the special ops on the 2 subs, they are too "special" to be valid possiblities. They fall in the "unique" class (as does the Doolittle raid, etc.). IMO, of course.

[Supervisor]

Just as an interesting side-note: while perusing a "dive" Truk site, of the 19 wrecks that are "divable" there, at least 2 (maybe 3) of the merchant ships are ships that were captured during the early days in 1942. With all the panic and disorganization at that time, there must have been more captures of merchant ships than I expected. But then, panic can do that.

Just FYI.

[Adnan Meshuggi]

Well, that was my idea... a paniced disorientiated crew in a harbour and a supirior fllet in front of it.... so from the 10 merchants in harbor, with explosions, smoke, they have a chance to forget their mission to sunk the ship or only made it unsuccsessfully... also for equippment, if your ship got a deadly hit and is sinking very quick, you are not interested in destroying the technical equippment but to save your life.... so the other side has a (small) chance to gain informations or the whole ship.

Sure this should be a rare thing... the surprise attack option could be for many (mostly other) things, but it could be the only chance that such a event can happen...

[Ranger-75]

first, it was the hornet, not the Lexington that the Japanese came upon after Santa Cruz. They couldn't board it for the same reason they couldn't try to save any of their Midway carriers, the fires were too intense.

The 2 German U-boats captured were in the Atlantic, both were in the middle of being scuttled, but fast action by the USN and RN sailors kept the ships afloat. However, this was NOT standard practice, Gallery was the only Hunter-Killer group commander that trained his tasf force to actually attempt capture. The preferred method of dealing with the U-boats was to sink them. That would be the same in the Pacific.

I do think it would be permissable for a limited number of merchant ships, say between 1 and 10% should be subject to capture, but only if a port is attacked AND falls in the first turn of any land battle, AND the defenders are eliminated or forced to retreat from the base in that same first turn. Generic "captured" tanker and MCS ship types can be included in the game for each side with reduced performance charasterics.

Warships should not be part of this.

[mdiehl]

Right. Hornet it was. I was thinking of Gallery when I said that it ought to be costly and require much preparation. But over the course of 4 or 5 years I don't see why it ought to be categorically written out.

Maybe there could be categories of special ops based on historic events that are available to both sides. There could be several options. A player could put all his effort into one of them, increasing the likelihood of success should circumstances permit, or keep the standard settings. Just a thought.

[brisd]

I have been playing UV for two days and now can see how WITP might be implemented. I am not sure if Intel successes will be modeled into the game but I would suggest that capturing an enemy base with ships docked in it should result in captured vessels, equipment, supplies and possible intel bonuses. If damaged aircraft are at the airfield a small chance of their capture should happen as well. Perhaps if the IJN capture an Allied base with radar or radar equipped ships/aircraft they can have an accelerated intro of such equipment. Same with Allies, they recover intel concerning IJN codes or order of battle, resulting in better detection levels maybe for the next 3 months or so. Just some ideas.
Yes, you could go crazy with this stuff and I want it to remain a STRATEGIC game, not a overblown Operational game like UV. Some neat ideas will have to be sacrificed for playability's sake.

[mdiehl]

I do not think merely capturing a port should allow the ships in port to be captured. If they've steam up, there's really no option for a ground assault force to get to the ships. It'd require special ops. Parties trained specifically for boarding a ship and running the ship after they've captured it, and proper equipment for scaling the hull &c. Your garden variety infantry man or SNLF is not going to be up to snuff for this job and won't have the material anyhow.

I also do not think that capturing radar equipment shold be likely when a radar-equipped port is overrun. The technology is in the displays and the knowledge on how to read them. You can bet that such equipment would *probably* be demolished by the operators in the event that the Japanese came close. I'd have a very small probability of capture, a small probability that some Japanese soldier does *not* smash it for the sake of wreaking havoc, and another very small probability that Japanese equivalent of G2 would have a clue what to do with it.

[Howling H R Bryars]

I like the idea of the occasional damaged ship trapped in port being captured. I think the likelihood of capture at sea is remote, although in the case of small combatants, not impossible.

[HMSWarspite]

Much as I like the level of detail that us in the game, I think I agree with the thought that this could get out of hand. Capturing ships was pretty rare, and cannot be said to have influenced the war much if at all. If you want ship capture, why not code book capture, or special surprise air raids (e.g. Bodenplatz (SP?), the German pre-emptive raids in Belgium, 1/1/45), or special rules for the naval battles of Narvick, or any number of infrequent funnies?:). I really would rather the time was spent on code that might make a difference, information handling, staff automation features, AI etc.

BTW It is a real pain to operate captured gear: no manuals, no spares, sublties like your grade of fuel or oil is different and gums up the jets, metric nuts, and all your spanners are US etctetcetc. When captures were made use of, it would either be local improvisation, limited usefulness, or a major rework. You would probably have to re-arm it as well (unless you want a new ammo type for your supply chain).

Now, on to serious requests: how are the rules for fighter intereption of specific enemy leaders coming on?:) I want to have a 1/250 or 1/500 chance of a decapitation strike working. Oh, and you had better include the 0.0002% chance of Yamamoto getting cancer in 1944!;)

[Kitakami]

If I were the Japanese production minister, I'd melt all the enemy ships the navy could not operate... and use the metal obtained therein to feed the shipyards.

Very ahistorical, but hey, we can dream

[showboat1]

USS Stewart was captured by the IJA in Surabaya. She was supposed to have been too badly damaged in drydock to b recovered and was then supposed to be blown up by explosive charges. However the ship was repaired and incorporated into the IJN. The US also recovered a IJN DD off of Tulagi. I think capturing ships sunk in shallow water harbors should be incorporated, but not capturing vessels on the high seas. Intel of some sort should be included though.

[byron13]

Shall we revive the debate?