NEW ARMY COmmercial

Joaquim · Post by **Joaquim** » Wed Mar 28, 2001 12:57 am

As an Active Duty US Army officer currently stationed in Germany, I take offense to anecdotal observations about the readiness of American forces in Germany.

You can, you can... but I sincerily doubt you gain anything by that... perhaps some more anecdotals observations?

Joaquim

Sorry for the english

«Greatness is laughting on yourself» - or whatever said whoever said that...

Akmatov · Post by **Akmatov** » Wed Mar 28, 2001 4:47 am

Gee, I missed the part about running away.

I just figured after my experiences of tasking far too few good soldiers to back to back taskings/assignments that the 'doing more with less' approach had finally reached its logical conclusion - we're down to one poor bastard being sent out by Washington to do a battalion-sized job. HUYA!

Akmatov · Post by **Akmatov** » Wed Mar 28, 2001 4:59 am

Just a quick comment on Franks observations.

I have no information regarding breakdown or accident rates, however the formula is pretty simple. Provide fine troops with fine equipment then slash their training to nothing, spend their maintenance budget on humanitarian projects and over task them into exhaustion. The results are inevitable regardless of the army, regardless of the fine quality of the soldiers and the equipment. (Feel free to aid airmen(we are missing three birds and four airmen in Europe today), sailors and marines).

The Clinton administration was on watch and largely responsible, but the blame should be shared with a Congress and a public eager to snarf down and gorge on the 'Peace Dividend'. The feeding frenzy over base closing was revolting.

frank1970 · Post by **frank1970** » Wed Mar 28, 2001 11:51 am

You lost a plane in Germany two days ago, too.
I know the problem of shrinking budgets in the military. The Bundeswehr has the same problems. The point is, that the Bundeswehr is used at home, so a lack of material is not so dangerous, but your boys are in all parts in the world, are not really liked everywhere and are in a lot of peace keeping missions. So the money is spent first for the important actions and the little what is left is spent for training and exercise.

Akmatov · Post by **Akmatov** » Wed Mar 28, 2001 9:15 pm

You're right about the Bundeswehr. One advantage they have is that being stationed close to home is I suspect the politicians have to take fairly good care of them. Unlike the American troops who tend to be out of sight and out of mind for most Americans. Actually, you guys see more of the American troops than we do here in the States - due to the Kasern system.

I was stationed in Germany for eight years and I do indeed understand the problems large numbers of young males can cause in town in between trips to the field. However, on the other side my German wife was astonished to discover the large number of Americans with a very positive attitude towards Germans based in part on the Americans having meet nice German people while in the military.

There are certainly some problems, but personally I think things are lot better than they could be. My grandfather served in the US Army during WWI and my father and father-in-law in WW II, both combat infantry only my father was in the US Army and my father-in-law in the Wehrmacht. Both went through hell and both lost a limb. I think the fact that I was fortunate enough to meet and marry a wonderful woman in Germany is a HUGE improvement over there being a third generation of war betweeen our countries.

I remember back around 1993 when the German Minister of Defense commented that the German government would prefer the Americans to maintain about a corps sized unit in Germany. I loved his rational because it echoed an idea I had had for a while - it's been a very quiet half century in Europe with the American Army stationed in Mittle Europa. I really think close relations between Germany and the US greatly benefit both. And as with any close relationship there is plenty of opportunity to see the others flaws.

Grumble · Post by **Grumble** » Wed Mar 28, 2001 9:28 pm

You lost a plane in Germany two days ago, too.

...and the Luftwaffe lost a Tornado out here on the range last Friday. Don't know yet what the cause was-still investigating but hopefully not relating to falling O&M budgets/political apathy.

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Wed Mar 28, 2001 10:58 pm

Originally posted by Akmatov:
Just a quick comment on Franks observations.

I have no information regarding breakdown or accident rates, however the formula is pretty simple. Provide fine troops with fine equipment then slash their training to nothing, spend their maintenance budget on humanitarian projects and over task them into exhaustion. The results are inevitable regardless of the army, regardless of the fine quality of the soldiers and the equipment. (Feel free to aid airmen(we are missing three birds and four airmen in Europe today), sailors and marines).

The Clinton administration was on watch and largely responsible, but the blame should be shared with a Congress and a public eager to snarf down and gorge on the 'Peace Dividend'. The feeding frenzy over base closing was revolting.

A rational explanation, succinctly said. Glad you said this Akmatov, as I believe its true, except for the shot at Clinton, since the downsizing began before Clinton. Of course, this explanation doesn't suit Frank, since this isn't going to be good fodder for the flame war he wants.

82nd Airborne · Post by **82nd Airborne** » Thu Mar 29, 2001 12:48 am

Originally posted by Frank:
but the Germans, followed by the Canadians and the British.

WOO HOO, 2ND place. Do we get a prize?
If I have a choice I'll take one of your finer automobiles.

Grumble · Post by **Grumble** » Thu Mar 29, 2001 1:28 am

"A rational explanation, succinctly said. Glad you said this Akmatov, as I believe its true, except for the shot at Clinton, since the downsizing began before Clinton "

Well, having been through the Reagan, Bush Sr, and Clinton admins, the operations tempo, which has led to the exodus of trained personnel-worn out equipment etc ramped up during the first Clinton Administration.
Downsizing is not an issue, if you consider that by doing that the scale and number of missions is also downsized. Despite what the DoD pogues who write these slogans think, "More with Less" violates basic logic. You do "Less with Less".

frank1970 · Post by **frank1970** » Thu Mar 29, 2001 12:19 pm

Hello Akmatov, schöne Grüße aus der Heimat an Deine Frau! (Hello Akmatov, greetings to your wife from her homeland).
Have you been in Grafenwöhr once? I live near the training area, so every American who has been in Grafenwöhr is quite a part of our community.

We have not heard anything about a lost Tornado yet! Bloody Defence Minister!

Ed, I do like flame wars, sometimes, but I do like a civiliced discussion with friendly people, too.

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Thu Mar 29, 2001 1:01 pm

Originally posted by Grumble:
Downsizing is not an issue, if you consider that by doing that the scale and number of missions is also downsized. Despite what the DoD pogues who write these slogans think, "More with Less" violates basic logic. You do "Less with Less".

Yes, but it seems to me that the demands placed on the military have not gone down, as the military shrank. We've got guys playing cop all over the planet. And I think you and I know what gets hurt the most when the money gets tight: soldier pay, maintenence to some degree, but most of all, training.

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Thu Mar 29, 2001 1:06 pm

Originally posted by Frank:
Ed, I do like flame wars, sometimes, but I do like a civiliced discussion with friendly people, too.

Sorry, can't help myself. The mass sterilization thing was a zinger that I can't get out of my head. Are you sure this was really in textbooks? High school, college?

frank1970 · Post by **frank1970** » Thu Mar 29, 2001 3:15 pm

It was Gymnasium (I think that is a kind of combination of College and Highschool).
The chapter was about the ideas some people had what should happen to Germany after the capitulation. It was a collection of very unrealistic or cruel or just stupid ideas some persons had. All this ideas were never considered to be done. The chapter was made for us pupils so we could see what could happen when you are nationalistic and flame the world with war.

Grumble · Post by **Grumble** » Thu Mar 29, 2001 8:56 pm

We have not heard anything about a lost Tornado yet! Bloody Defence Minister

It was in "Bild" a few days ago: http://www.bild.com/
Happened Friday Night, well Saturday Morning actually.

Akmatov · Post by **Akmatov** » Fri Mar 30, 2001 4:15 am

Sorry Ed if the Clinton comment offended. After the end of the Cold War there was going to be some sort of down-sizing, should have been. However, I feel the Clinton administration rather over did it. And then they discovered the 'possibilities' of using the military to impliment a variety of non-traditional missions, or at least missions the troops weren't trained for. Bush Sr., George I, seemed to be more thoughtful and careful about assigning missions to the military. Down-sizing was appropriate, just should have been done better. Grumble, grumble.

Akmatov · Post by **Akmatov** » Fri Mar 30, 2001 4:29 am

Vielen Dank Frank. Sie ist eine wunderbare Frau und ich bin ein sehr glucklicker Mann.

I've been to 'Graf' only a couple of times. The area is very beautiful, very different from the high desert here in Arizona. However, there are a surprising number of Germans around here. Both Tucson and Fort Huachuca, south of here, have German bakeries owned by German families. My wife loves the climate, she enjoys being warm on a regular basis

But we both miss the forests very much.
Tschus

frank1970 · Post by **frank1970** » Fri Mar 30, 2001 10:53 am

Yes, we have a lot of forests over here.
The climate should be little other, too, I think. Here in Grafenwöhr we have below
-20°C for at least two weeks in January.
Therefore Grafenwöhr is known as "Bavarian Sibiria"!

I hope you had to have your exercises in July!

While my tour of duty my company commander told us there are three possible conditions in Grafenwöhr: icy, dusty and muddy. In winter you can have all of them in one day.

There are rumors that the US want to move a military unit from somewhere in Hessen to Grafenwöhr. Has someone heard about this yet?