German fighter production discussion (BTR)

[wernerpruckner]

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

And what might those "hidden" factors be?

Sure to produce a jet fighter you need 4 jet engines and to produce a Do335 you need two engines.

I presume that if he is sticking with the 100 planes R&Ded moves production up by 1 month then he also is using the WiTP rule that you cannot begin researching a plane more than 12 months prior to its introduction.

So, are there any other hidden bottlenecks? C'mon, its hardly adult to have a secret boy's club which knows the hidden bottlenecks but won't tell us mere newcomers [8D]

bottlenecks my be various things build in the game - maybe you need more parts or more assembly lines, maybe you need an ARM factory for a certain weapon or radar set........or glue (in RL the Moskito (Ta154) production was stopped because of glue)

[Nemo121]

Swift, thanks. So there's assembly, engines and avionics for all planes PLUS ( special factors for certain planes, the glue of the Ta-154, radar sets for various night fighters, various alloys for various jet engines etc ).

Ok, makes sense actually. Its just a bit of a B**CH to have to guess what the hidden bottlenecks might be. At least in real life you'd know that if you're cancelling the Ju-88 night fighter and making He-219s that you should switch radar production from the Ju88 radar to He219 radar.

[wernerpruckner]

Not really.....look at the real war German figher/night fighter production.....

[Speedysteve]

Thats right Nemo.....
 
As for not knowing what they are....sounds like RL to me.....you think the various Axis commands, factions, firms all talked to each other at all times?[;)]

[Hard Sarge]

you guys are scaring me

[Speedysteve]

I'm always scared of you HS[;)]

[Hard Sarge]

you guys are as bad as "he who shall not be named"

Smoke and mirrors

everything is Smoke and mirrors

which if you look like me, the more smoke between you and the mirror the better

[harley]

I'd agree with HS, except the smoke needs to be 3 or 4 pages long. 

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

Swift, thanks. So there's assembly, engines and avionics for all planes PLUS ( special factors for certain planes, the glue of the Ta-154, radar sets for various night fighters, various alloys for various jet engines etc ).

Ok, makes sense actually. Its just a bit of a B**CH to have to guess what the hidden bottlenecks might be. At least in real life you'd know that if you're cancelling the Ju-88 night fighter and making He-219s that you should switch radar production from the Ju88 radar to He219 radar.

In the old BTR (and presumably remains in the current iteration) there was also one significant hidden bottleneck. Transport delays.

It was claimed, but to the best of my knowledge not supported by any hard data, that the more damage inflicted upon railyards, the greater was the delay in transporting production from adjacent factories to the pools. What was the exact quantum correlation between damage and delay was never disclosed. Nor how far from the damaged railyard would the delay impact. To compound this FOW, is the fact that you never actually know exactly what you have in the pools.

So to build plane models (both current and R+D), you need to produce the requisite "assembly", parts and engines - then transport them to the pools - then all three components are extracted and transported back from the pools to the aircraft assembly factory. Damage to railyards can therefore derail (pun intended) your production estimates.

Alfred

[Speedysteve]

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

you guys are as bad as "he who shall not be named"

Smoke and mirrors

everything is Smoke and mirrors

which if you look like me, the more smoke between you and the mirror the better

LOL. Don't know what you mean[:'(]

[wernerpruckner]

where smoke....there fire..... [;)]

[joliverlay]

Here are my suggestions.
 
Do calculations only for aircraft/parts/engines already online (or ready within a few days).  Ignore the unfinished factories.
 
You have 8 engines suitable for FW190D not used for anything.  I convert 10+ itallian, french, and rumaninan iarframes to FW190D.  I want 8 on line at all times for research.  (switch parts as well).
 
 
You have plenty of DB605A.  Convert some of these to engines for Me262A and TA152.
Convert German airframes (Do217(3), ME210(1), Me110G4(3), FW190G(3), Me109Ga(1-2)) and safe allied [IAR(3), D.152 (1),] to these 2 types.
 
I try to get 8 190D, 8 TA-152, and 4 ME-262 into active research.  The factories not yet on map don't help. 
 
This should generate 240 points (maybe 2 month advance) per month for 190D & TA152 types after online and 120 points (maybe 1 month advance) per month on jets.
 
It looks like you are short on engines.  Its not that bad.  Non-discovered airframes don't need engines, and many of the DB501s used for 110 and 210 types can be diverted to other kinds of engines.
 
 
 

[guctony]

Ok I am trying something different

As the scenario started I moved every avaible plane to france They engaged Allied fighters what ever the cost. At the same time every quality Unit goes in to Germany just to the end of Allied escort range.

For first 30 day I produced hordes of Me 109G6 with converting every ten day engine and assebly and part factory. some 1800 plane produced. Now radical it seems. I turn all Me 109 production to Ta 152C. keeping Fw 190 production intact. I only produce Me 410 He 219 Fw190 And researching Ta152C Go229 and JU388. This way I can minimise the use of Engine type. DB603A DB603L BMW802. This three engine is used all in my production and research Planes.

Now the plan is to sit tight and wait till the Ta152C production kicks in Until then ME 410 and FW190 will deal with Bombers. And I will Fight according to my Me 109 Reserve. And any low exprienced german or non-german unit will engaged with Allied fighters. Because If you engage to deeply in Dogfights Those exprienced pilots erode pretty fast.

[harley]

ORIGINAL: joliverlay
Non-discovered airframes don't need engines,

Maybe in the original version they didn't. [:-]

[Nemo121]

Yeah it seems that in this version if you want to research Me-262s at a rate of 10 per day you need 10 x Me262 assembly and parts and FORTY Junkers Jumo Engines. Yikes.
 
It might still be worth it if you are really willing to just hunker down and keep the losses at a minimum for the first 3 months. 10 x Me-262 produced per day would yield 300 points per month = 900 points in 3 months which would move the Me-262 up from September 44 to January 44.

Personally I think that sounds like it would be worth it as you could dump all the Me-410s, Bf-110s, Me-210s etc and replace those Zerstorer units with much more effective and survivable Me-262s.

[Hard Sarge]

Are you sure, your major killers are going to be the 110/410 units

and the 262 is not a uber weapon, it has it's faults

I would take a 335 over a 262 anyday

to be honest, I wouldn't kill off the 109 production, the 190 is not going to do much, up high

[guctony]

I couldnt personally test it yet but I think Overally best Fighter winner is Ta 152 C good speed, good range, good firepower. And engine is common in Do335, He219, Me410, so it is logical to produce large numbers. Shifting R&D when they became avaible.

Most of us and leaders of Germany were looking jets as wonder weapons. But they were not self sufficent yet. Without proper fighter they are useless. In my old games I discovered it dearly. Fw 190D is not enough. Without large scale production of a quality fighter it is difficult to contain mass effect of allies. My tactic will be supporting Me 410 with avaible figters then after producing enough Ta 152C changing production to Do335 and Go 229 so every time Front is getting nearer I could be able to use range advantage to stay as much as possible from sweeps.

[joliverlay]

What I'm asserting is that if a factory for an undiscovered plane that is not yet on the map (factory not built yet) should not need an engine if it is not doing research or building planes. If you are saying that it does (and I'll evenually figure it out if you don't tell us) is that I'll change all of the factories that are not yet built, and sucking up good engines/parts, into something I don't want unless you can tell us how to turn unwanted factories of.

If i convert 16 DB605 at to Junkers Jumo Jets and they go to the 4 non-existant factorys appearing on turn 400+ (are lost) rather than to 4 actual on map factorys I've converted on turn 10-20 that are operational (for research) we need to know that.

Real stuff (engines, parts, airframes) should be used to build real planes first, then go to research, and not be diverted to a factory that does not even exist.

[Hard Sarge]

one of the whole ideas is, you don't want to switch everything

there are reasons why the Germans needed to make so many different types, and you should build the different types

killing off the F and G is going to hurt you in the long run

killing off the Ga's is going to hurt you

I would also keep the IAR in production, it is not the same as the old Model in BTR (hell it was a good plane, don't know why they figured it was a piece of junk)

your 110s and 410s are worth there weight in gold in the early part of the game

the 217 I would kill off, I wouldn't be in a major hurry to kill off the G4's, some of the switches are pretty good, and are worthwhile while waiting for the "good" models to be ready

152, 406, yea, but I would switch them to Ga's

remember there are bottlenecks, with out being bottlenecks, trainers upgrade to trainers, Jabos upgrade to Jabos, you kill off everything, you not going to have anything to fly for a good part of your forces

you need to fight the war in 43, not 44 or 45

you can have a Airforce full of TA-183s, but what good is that, if the Russians own all of your Oil Fields

to be honest, in the long run, you are never going to have enough 109s, and when the 14/10/4 start becoming buildable, you are still going to need the G6, hopefully, each unit that changes over to a new model, will be able to hand over there old planes, and keep them in action, most times, it don't work that way

and for your last line, remember what I keep saying, saying from the old board, Smoke and mirrors

[Nemo121]

As re: the Do335 vs the Me262... I think it is interesting to discuss why some prefer the Do-335 over the Me-262...
The Me262 is 80 miles faster ( 542 vs 462 ), has the same ceiling ( 37,000), slightly superior climb (4,000 vs 3,800), worse manoeuvrability ( 32 vs 36 ), worse durability ( 34 vs 37 ), stronger guns ( 20 vs 11 ) and a much inferior combat range ( 218 vs 700 miles )
 
So, I suppose it comes down to the following:
Is speed superior to manoeuvrability in fighter vs fighter combat?
 
Against bombers it seems the 262 is definitely superior ( much better firepower ).
 
Or am I missing something?
 
C'mon guys a bit of clarity... It is a tad frustrating to have to play a game where people are hinting " I know why x is a good idea and y isn't but I'm not going to tell you".
 
If I wanted a situation in which totally unanticipated consequences and unforseeable factors would scupper my plans I'd go into work. I play wargames to relax.