AI Cheating Or A Bug?

This new stand alone release based on the legendary War in the Pacific from 2 by 3 Games adds significant improvements and changes to enhance game play, improve realism, and increase historical accuracy. With dozens of new features, new art, and engine improvements, War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition brings you the most realistic and immersive WWII Pacific Theater wargame ever!

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Chad Harrison
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RE: AI Cheating Or A Bug?

Post by Chad Harrison »

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

what else?

That I have been able to find out so far (and none of these have been confirmed by the devs):

1. Unlimited torpedo sorties from Carriers.
2. Unlimited aircraft production (for Allies also).
3. Instant 100 planning points for any target.
4. Absolutely no restriction on being able to move around troops (ie. any unit can be loaded and shipped across the Pacific regardless of its HQ).
5. Even on normal settings, the Japanese AI gets huge bonus's to production. For instance, my game is half way through February 1942 as the Allies. Japan has lost about two or three hundred AK's to surface raiders - mostly PT's and DD/CL combos. When I load up their game, they have almost no ships shipping resources to mainland Japan. However, they have three bases in mainland Japan with 999,999 resources, and all the others have well over about 500,000 resources. Again, this is on 'Historical' difficulty setting.
6. They can launch Betty/Nell torpedo sorties from just about any airfield (though this will be addressed in the next patch).
7. I dont know whether you want to call it a cheat, but the AI instantly knows when there is adequate CAP over a target. They will pound, say, Darwin relentlessly with their 2E bombers but the instant you move fighters there, it stops. And I mean the instant. They may start coming back, but usually it wont be until they have fighters or for some time.

Thats all I can think of off the top of my head.

But the question in the end is: Does it matter?

In my book, no. Make the AI tough and challenging. If the game was designed from the ground up by the AE team, this could have been accomplished without allowing the AI to blatantly cheat against fundamental game constraints. But since they had to made do with what they had, letting the AI cheat was necessary to make it more challenging.

So again, I dont have a problem with it - mostly because playing any AI in anygame puts me to sleep when compared to PBEM [:D]
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Chickenboy
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RE: AI Cheating Or A Bug?

Post by Chickenboy »

With all this AI cheatin' goin' on, it makes me feel considerably less guilty about inducing an AI death spiral.

In WiTP, this could be affected by torpedo-bearing aircraft in an allied Singapore. The AI would send transport TF after transport TF into the free-fire zone, resulting in hundreds upon hundreds of sunk IJN ships before the end of 1942.

The AI AE Achilles heel for me seems to be Java. The AI has been sending SCTF and transport TF time after time into my LBA and carrier air buzz saw. I've probably sunk 100 IJN ships around Java just in the last 10 days of game time. I must have drowned 3 divisions and support troops. I just finished off the IJA 41st Division and a supporting armored regimental unit that got dumped on Merak without supply. Easy pickings-I've never seen so many surrendered Japanese!

Hopefully, the IJ AI won't get infinite xAPs, xAKs and LCUs. I'm going to see how long this algorithm goes on before it gets boring.
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Chad Harrison
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RE: AI Cheating Or A Bug?

Post by Chad Harrison »

I just took this shot my my game against the AI. Historical difficulty mind you. The top shows what you start the war with as Japan in Scenario 1. The bottom is what they have as of February 16th, 1942.

Now, for anyone playing as Japan, look at how much resources and oil Japan has after only 2 1/2 months of the war! [X(]

I went through their TF's, I have found a single TF with over 10k of resources working to get resources back to Japan. Dont even begin to wonder where all that oil came from!

Again, just want to point out that I have no problem with this. The AE team made the best out of vanilla WitP without starting from scratch. Is this was WitP Mk II, then I would have a problem - there are better ways at making an AI difficult without letting it blatantly cheat - just dont ask me to do it! [:D]



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pmelheck1
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RE: AI Cheating Or A Bug?

Post by pmelheck1 »

Something to keep in mind is AE is a game set in the pacific using period units.  The game is balanced to allow Japan to win.  The AI cheats on both sides to make a more challenging game.  History had the U.S. out producing Japan by a more than massive margin, you will not find that in this game.  Keep in mind this is a historical based rather than a historical game.  The A.I. does no more than  and no less than many other historically based games set in this and other time periods.
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RE: AI Cheating Or A Bug?

Post by TSCofield »

I hate to say it but that is no better an excuse than the devs of flight simulations saying that the AI can look through clouds or can perform maneuvers that an airframe is incabable of doing simply because the AI can't win on its own. The game cheats to overcome some poor gameplay items like poorly escorted ships and tunnel rat actions by the AI? Sorry but that is a cop out. Can I accept that? Maybe but then again I have to resort to tactics that wouldn't normally be used. Choking off the home islands doesn't do any good. Short of destroying every single cargo ship to prevent enemy transport of goods and troops I am unable to historically blockade the islands of Japan.

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Chad Harrison
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RE: AI Cheating Or A Bug?

Post by Chad Harrison »

ORIGINAL: SimHq Tom Cofield

I hate to say it but that is no better an excuse than the devs of flight simulations saying that the AI can look through clouds or can perform maneuvers that an airframe is incabable of doing simply because the AI can't win on its own. The game cheats to overcome some poor gameplay items like poorly escorted ships and tunnel rat actions by the AI? Sorry but that is a cop out. Can I accept that? Maybe but then again I have to resort to tactics that wouldn't normally be used. Choking off the home islands doesn't do any good. Short of destroying every single cargo ship to prevent enemy transport of goods and troops I am unable to historically blockade the islands of Japan.


I am just thinking out loud, but I wonder how much of this is a temporary thing? In other words, their industry gets a huge bonus in 1942, smaller in 1943 and so on until no bonus is received and they can be chocked off.

For WitP Mk II (whenever it comes around), I think that they will have a chance to make a challenging AI that does not have to rely on fundamental cheats to be challenging.
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RE: AI Cheating Or A Bug?

Post by Crimguy »

I really don't know, but was this implemented to make up for the Zero bonus being removed in AE?
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RE: AI Cheating Or A Bug?

Post by bklooste »

ORIGINAL: Crimguy

I really don't know, but was this implemented to make up for the Zero bonus being removed in AE?

No . It was implemented because the engine is WITP and it cant handle shipping resources /oil back to Japan. Especially with the new AE full logistics model for Japan.
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Admiral Scott
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RE: AI Cheating Or A Bug?

Post by Admiral Scott »

Does the AI actually try to ship resources and supply to and from bases?

Because if the AI doesnt, or does just a little, that would make for very few targets for allied subs to encounter and attack.
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RE: AI Cheating Or A Bug?

Post by Time Traveller »

ORIGINAL: SimHq Tom Cofield

I hate to say it but that is no better an excuse than the devs of flight simulations saying that the AI can look through clouds or can perform maneuvers that an airframe is incabable of doing simply because the AI can't win on its own. The game cheats to overcome some poor gameplay items like poorly escorted ships and tunnel rat actions by the AI? Sorry but that is a cop out. Can I accept that? Maybe but then again I have to resort to tactics that wouldn't normally be used. Choking off the home islands doesn't do any good. Short of destroying every single cargo ship to prevent enemy transport of goods and troops I am unable to historically blockade the islands of Japan.

I have to agree with the above statement. It is a cop-out to have such a high degree of AI cheating to make up for a poor game engine and AI. Historical game play was completely tossed out the window with this AE version, in favor of giving hardcore players more of a 'challenge' against an uber-cheating AI. I'm passing this one up.
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RE: AI Cheating Or A Bug?

Post by Erik Rutins »

ORIGINAL: Top Cat
Been playing campaign against Allied AI on normal difficulty and noticed that his air force seemed very resilient to say the least.
So I had a quick peek and noticed that by late Jan. 1942 he'd taken over 800 P40E replacements and 100's of B17 and other bomber replacements.

We don't see anything that should cause this in the code. While the AI does get some production assistance, it's slight, not even in the ballpark of what you're seeing. We're wondering if it's a display bug of some kind, or another bug. It would be helpful if you would zip up and e-mail to me at erikr@matrixgames.com some save files that show this in action. Thanks.

Regards,

- Erik
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Erik Rutins
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RE: AI Cheating Or A Bug?

Post by Erik Rutins »

ORIGINAL: Time Traveller
I have to agree with the above statement. It is a cop-out to have such a high degree of AI cheating to make up for a poor game engine and AI. Historical game play was completely tossed out the window with this AE version, in favor of giving hardcore players more of a 'challenge' against an uber-cheating AI. I'm passing this one up.

I see a lot of jumping to conclusions in this thread.
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RE: AI Cheating Or A Bug?

Post by DuckofTindalos »

Wonder how he came to those conclusions, when he doesn't have the game.
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RE: AI Cheating Or A Bug?

Post by BigJ62 »

Just ran a test on allied build planes for us army p-40e during all 12 months and I'm not seeing a build rate of 400 per month in fact on normal level the ai gets a minor cheat which equals 40 p-40e's per month or 480 per year so I don't know where the 400 per month value is coming from but it is not coming from production. You'll notice that its pool is zero so if the ai actually used 800 and built 400 to date, that there would be some excess and also if its building 400 per month its going to have to build a lot more than 2 per day. The columns that look correct are ‘in pool’, ‘this turn’, ‘replace rate’, ‘production rate’ and ‘available’ the other two are obviously bugged.

This looks to be a bug but what kind of bug is the question, is it a display bug or did the ai get 800 planes and if so how did it get them and where did they go because the math of this does not add up so, I’m going to need to see a save before those two erroneous columns went berserk and also a current save posted in tech support.


ORIGINAL: Top Cat

Been playing campaign against Allied AI on normal difficulty and noticed that his air force seemed very resilient to say the least.

So I had a quick peek and noticed that by late Jan. 1942 he'd taken over 800 P40E replacements and 100's of B17 and other bomber replacements.

Is my game screwed up or is it working as designed?

Cheers
Top Cat



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RE: AI Cheating Or A Bug?

Post by Walloc »

I know only a save will really help, so just pointing out what Top cat previously wrote.
ORIGINAL: BigJ62
This looks to be a bug but what kind of bug is the question, is it a display bug or did the ai get 800 planes and if so how did it get them and where did they go because the math of this does not add up so, I’m going to need to see a save before those two erroneous columns went berserk and also a current save posted in tech support.
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ORIGINAL: Top Cat

Yep. Just playing on "default" or normal difficulty level.

The Allied AI has about 25 squadrons of P40E's all at full strength.

Cheers
Top Cat

25*25 = 625. Assuming the AI lost some too. So 800 recieved isnt necesarry out of the question. At leased alot more than the 35+40 bonus times 1.5 month = 110ish

Just pointing out in regards to bug hunt.

Kind regards,

Rasmus
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RE: AI Cheating Or A Bug?

Post by Erik Rutins »

I thought I should repeat here what I wrote to Time Traveler in another forum, just so people understand that while we may not comment much on the AI, we are paying attention.

-----

You are jumping to conclusions. Player assumptions about cheating are not the same as developer confirmation. One of our policies has been to investigate player reports but not confirm or deny what the AI does because we don't want folks figuring out how to "game" it.

With that said, while some of the cheats do exist, most of the reports I've seen are either incorrect assumptions or significant exaggerations or bugs. Making further assumptions from the sidelines (you don't have WITP AE and have not played it, as I understand it) may be an entertaining pastime for you, but it's not appreciated, especially when you start posting it to other forums as well. Please keep your discussion on the WITP AE AI in the AE forum and until you've played it, please avoid assuming that you know how it works. Feel free to ask questions and comment, but please don't jump to conclusions.

As a side note, you may be shocked to realize that AI is not really "Artificial Intelligence" and the vast majority of games do require some crutches for the AI to have any hope of keeping up with a human player. Unlike WITP, most of these do not allow you to "switch sides" and peek to see what the AI is doing, so the crutches go unnoticed. Even so, the AE AI is much improved from a planning and execution standpoint, without any cheat assistance, over the original WITP AI.

Regards,

- Erik
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RE: AI Cheating Or A Bug?

Post by Time Traveller »

Hi Erik. Thanks for the explanation. I'm not trying to trash the AE version. Heck, I enjoy playing WITP. I am trying to find out as much as I can before making another purchase. I am not trying to figure out how the AI works as to 'game it'. I just want to know if it cheats (teleporting, god intelligence, etc) or gets massive bonuses even on the historical difficulty setting. It seems that no one who developed this game can or will give a straight answer. Based on what many AE players here have reported, I am beginning to have my doubts. You say that most of those reports are just bugs, overly-exaggerated, or just plain wrong. I want to believe this, but somehow I don't. I do realize that most AI in strategy games get some kind of 'help' to create more challenges for the player. I was asking about this in the other forum because I was curious after Terminus' snide remark that all games cheat, and we had better wake up and accept it. It appears that some games' AI&#12288;cheat more than others. But I am impressed at the reports of a more aggressive AI in AE. But perhaps the AI crutches and bonuses were beefed up in this version to support the more aggressive AI? [;)]
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RE: AI Cheating Or A Bug?

Post by Erik Rutins »

ORIGINAL: Time Traveller
I want to believe this, but somehow I don't. I do realize that most AI in strategy games get some kind of 'help' to create more challenges for the player. I was asking about this in the other forum because I was curious after Terminus' snide remark that all games cheat, and we had better wake up and accept it. It appears that some games' AI&#12288;cheat more than others. But I am impressed at the reports of a more aggressive AI in AE. But perhaps the AI crutches and bonuses were beefed up in this version to support the more aggressive AI? [;)]

I'm sorry you won't believe us - we really don't want to go into details, because every detail will help someone "game" the AI. However, the list you've been posting contains a lot of errors and exaggerations. The AI does get some cheats, and it did in WITP as well. There are also some new cheats that help the AE AI. However, by and large there are many realistic limitations on these cheats and our overall goal is to help the AI in areas where it cannot think like a human can. Our goal is not to turn the AI into some kind of ahistorical uber-player that gets everything for free and has no limits. When you seem claims of that kind, you can be pretty sure they are either false, based on exaggerated assumptions or the result of a bug.

Regards,

- Erik
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RE: AI Cheating Or A Bug?

Post by Admiral Scott »

Does the AI actually try to ship resources and supply to and from bases?

Because if the AI doesnt, or does just a little, that would make for very few targets for allied subs to encounter and attack.
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RE: AI Cheating Or A Bug?

Post by Andy Mac »

Yes and production will cease if resources or fuel do not reach the HI.
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