Very disappointed

[pmelheck1]

For some of us the issue of PBEM has nothing to do with time.  I don't care how long or short PBEM is.  If turns took 15 seconds I DON'T CARE.  I just don't like two player games and I never will.  I NEVER buy any game that is two player only.  I am so disgusted with 2 player games I will quit computers before returning to them.  I do believe Matrix will get the AI working better at some point.  If I didn't think they can fix the AI I wouldn't be here and wouldn't buy anymore games from matrix if they can't program an AI.  AE is a very complex game requiring a very complex AI and from my experience with Matrix they will correct the AI.  But for some of us PBEM is not an issue for AI issues.

[Admiral Scott]

Maybe playing on normal difficulty is the way to go.

How good of a game does the AI give you on normal?

[Chad Harrison]

ORIGINAL: Admiral Scott

Maybe playing on normal difficulty is the way to go.

How good of a game does the AI give you on normal?

I am and have been playing against the AI on normal since the first real patch (I started it after the patch).

I was bored to tears with the AI in vanilla WitP - no matter the setting. It was a tough challenege your first or second time through, but after that, it was easy to defeat. Heres your checklist to beating the AI in vanilla WitP:

1. Move all troops in Malaya to Singapore.
2. Move all troops in Luzon to Manila.
3. Move all troops in DEI to Soerbaja.
4. Move all troops in Burma to Rangoon. Send all Commonwealth reinforcements to Rangoon.

There, you just beat the AI in vanilla WitP! All four of those places will now never fall, and the AI falls apart very, very quickly after that.

Now welcome to AE. I wanted to see what the dev team had done with the AI, so I did the exact above in AE. My game is now to April 15th, 1942. Manila has fallen. Singapore has fallend. The DEI has fallen. I still hold Rangoon, but there are some big meanies coming down the road. And this is all on 'normal'.

Yes, the AI gets some advantages over the human player. The goal of the dev team was to make a challenging AI. They have done so. Yes, they have given the AI some bonus' to different things - some of which were in vanilla WitP - some of which were not. But that ensures that the AI will remain challenging much, much longer than it did in vanilla WitP.

Does that mean there is no room for improvement? No, ofcourse not. Threads like these help shed light to the dev team about how the AI working.

[Puhis]

ORIGINAL: Admiral Scott

Maybe playing on normal difficulty is the way to go.

How good of a game does the AI give you on normal?

I'm playing normal game as Japan. Only one month now, but so far very challenging game in China. I was too optimistic and tried to advance right away, so chinese quickly took 4 cities. Now I have to re-direct my troops to get those cities back... Very fun!

Other parts of the map no major problems so far, but it's still early game. Well, Burma invasion stopped too...

I'm not experience player, but I think this AI is huge improvement compared to vanilla.

[Mynok]

ORIGINAL: mullk

For some of us the issue of PBEM has nothing to do with time.  I don't care how long or short PBEM is.  If turns took 15 seconds I DON'T CARE.  I just don't like two player games and I never will.  I NEVER buy any game that is two player only.  I am so disgusted with 2 player games I will quit computers before returning to them.  I do believe Matrix will get the AI working better at some point.  If I didn't think they can fix the AI I wouldn't be here and wouldn't buy anymore games from matrix if they can't program an AI.  AE is a very complex game requiring a very complex AI and from my experience with Matrix they will correct the AI.  But for some of us PBEM is not an issue for AI issues.

[&:] How can you possibly project some mythical "2 player game" experience onto every game? Every game is very different. Some do better as AI games and others as 2 player games. THIS is a 2 player game at its core. I'm just sorry for your sake that you are too stubborn to even give it a try.

Have fun how you wish, but it is your loss.

[mjk428]

ORIGINAL: Mynok

ORIGINAL: mullk

For some of us the issue of PBEM has nothing to do with time.  I don't care how long or short PBEM is.  If turns took 15 seconds I DON'T CARE.  I just don't like two player games and I never will.  I NEVER buy any game that is two player only.  I am so disgusted with 2 player games I will quit computers before returning to them.  I do believe Matrix will get the AI working better at some point.  If I didn't think they can fix the AI I wouldn't be here and wouldn't buy anymore games from matrix if they can't program an AI.  AE is a very complex game requiring a very complex AI and from my experience with Matrix they will correct the AI.  But for some of us PBEM is not an issue for AI issues.

[&:] How can you possibly project some mythical "2 player game" experience onto every game? Every game is very different. Some do better as AI games and others as 2 player games. THIS is a 2 player game at its core. I'm just sorry for your sake that you are too stubborn to even give it a try.

Have fun how you wish, but it is your loss.

Matrix sells this game as being able to play against the AI.

You like PBEM, that's great. Some people don't, that's great too. Stop insulting other people's preferences just because they differ from yours.

[Mynok]

See Chickenboy? Out from the woodwork they come just as soon as someone encourages anyone to try PBEM. [8|]

[mjk428]

ORIGINAL: Mynok


See Chickenboy? Out from the woodwork they come just as soon as someone encourages anyone to try PBEM. [8|]

I'm just sorry for your sake that you are too stubborn to even give it a try.

Have fun how you wish, but it is your loss.

You call that "encouraging"?

[Buck Beach]

ORIGINAL: Mynok

ORIGINAL: mullk

For some of us the issue of PBEM has nothing to do with time.  I don't care how long or short PBEM is.  If turns took 15 seconds I DON'T CARE.  I just don't like two player games and I never will.  I NEVER buy any game that is two player only.  I am so disgusted with 2 player games I will quit computers before returning to them.  I do believe Matrix will get the AI working better at some point.  If I didn't think they can fix the AI I wouldn't be here and wouldn't buy anymore games from matrix if they can't program an AI.  AE is a very complex game requiring a very complex AI and from my experience with Matrix they will correct the AI.  But for some of us PBEM is not an issue for AI issues.

[&:] How can you possibly project some mythical "2 player game" experience onto every game? Every game is very different. Some do better as AI games and others as 2 player games. THIS is a 2 player game at its core. I'm just sorry for your sake that you are too stubborn to even give it a try.

Have fun how you wish, but it is your loss.

Yes, we get it Mynok!! If fact we get it over and over and over again. Why don't you just stop with your rhetoric. Nothing you say about the virtues of a PBEM game can be thought of as a religious revelation. El Cid was preaching this as has everyone else for years about WITP and now WITP-AE, what a surprise PBEM is better that solo play.

Do you think that your not going to get into heaven unless you succeed in your life's mission to convert the masses?

Rant over but really Jeez Louise!

[ChickenOfTheSea]

ORIGINAL: Admiral Scott

Maybe playing on normal difficulty is the way to go.

How good of a game does the AI give you on normal?

In my current game, I decided to go with the Ironman mod on normal. The AI side gets some non-historical material help rather than rampant cheating. PBEM is a much more fun way to play, but I don't think I am quite ready for that in AE yet. I haven't had time to get the mechanics down. I will probably wait for patch II before starting a PBEM.

[Mynok]

ORIGINAL: Buck Beach

Yes, we get it Mynok!! If fact we get it over and over and over again. Why don't you just stop with your rhetoric. Nothing you say about the virtues of a PBEM game can be thought of as a religious revelation. El Cid was preaching this as has everyone else for years about WITP and now WITP-AE, what a surprise PBEM is better that solo play.

Do you think that your not going to get into heaven unless you succeed in your life's mission to convert the masses?

Rant over but really Jeez Louise!

Ain't ever shuttin up about it. Period. I encourage PBEM because there might be new players afraid of it. They might get enough courage to actually try it if given a little shove. You AI-onliers are the ones taking offense at nothing.

If you don't like reading me, there's a handy little green button down there. Use it. Just like I have.

[Chad Harrison]

ORIGINAL: Mynok

I encourage PBEM because there might be new players afraid of it.

I just wanted to echo this.

If you have not tried PBEM, it is the best way (in my opinion atleast) to enjoy this game. I have always played vanilla WitP and now AE against the AI, and I enjoy the game against the AI. But theres just something about PBEM. It turns it into an entirely different game. It becomes a much more challenging, much more interesting and much more captivating game. In reality, the only reason I play the AI is to get ready for PBEM.

Granted, everyone has personal taste and opinion. If you have tried PBEM with WitP and did not enjoy it, then enjoy the AI - the dev team has put a lot of work into it. If you have tried other games with PBEM and did not enjoy it, consider trying it with AE. Its a great exerpience and it really makes the game shine!

Chad

[Mynok]

Better said, but exactly what I've been trying to say.

[Ketza]

Once you play PBEM you will never go back to playing the AI.

Nothing compares to the feeling of knowing the move you just made is making someone cringe in front of a monitor half way around the world.

[8D]

[Chickenboy]

Gentlemen,

Again, thank you for your very positive feedback re: the PBEM experience that AE has to offer. I've done PBEM and it was fun. I also have had lots of fun with AI. Yes, I went back to AI after doing PBEM. I did it because of convenience, ease of scheduling, etc.

Please see my previous posts for why the "PBEM is better than AI" argument is not the crux of my initial post nor the spirit of this thread that I wished to invoke. Clearly the game HAS an AI experience that is, by all standards, improved over WiTP.

I'm hoping to discuss the limitations of the AI model and make this play experience more satisfactory. PBEM can be a good thing, but it's also a non-sequitor for purposes of this discussion.

Warm regards,

Chickenboy

[treespider]

To me the downside to PBeM would be that some players want to be able to sit down and crank out turn after turn for an extended period of time...which is not possible with PBeM.

With PBeM you have to wait for your opponent to reply which is both the downside and part of the beauty of PBeM...the waiting lends itself to anticipation.

With a game against the AI you can satisfy your anticipation simply by cranking out a new turn ... with PBeM you are forced to wait.

With PBeM you have to commit to a long term game with occasional pauses due to trips away ...with an AI game you can repeatedly walk away for days at a time.

I once was an AI only player ...but now I only PBeM. I play when I want, as often as I want and enjoy the anticipation of waiting for my opponents turn.

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Gentlemen,

Again, thank you for your very positive feedback re: the PBEM experience that AE has to offer. I've done PBEM and it was fun. I also have had lots of fun with AI. Yes, I went back to AI after doing PBEM. I did it because of convenience, ease of scheduling, etc.

Please see my previous posts for why the "PBEM is better than AI" argument is not the crux of my initial post nor the spirit of this thread that I wished to invoke. Clearly the game HAS an AI experience that is, by all standards, improved over WiTP.

I'm hoping to discuss the limitations of the AI model and make this play experience more satisfactory. PBEM can be a good thing, but it's also a non-sequitor for purposes of this discussion.

Warm regards,

Chickenboy

As Andy pointed out ...you did start the game on VERY HARD.

VERY HARD does not make the game VERY SMART.

The game is just as smart on HISTORICAL as it is on VERY HARD.

So certain benefits are given to the computer side to make the encounter VERY HARD.

[Mynok]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy
I'm hoping to discuss the limitations of the AI model and make this play experience more satisfactory. PBEM can be a good thing, but it's also a non-sequitor for purposes of this discussion.

I guess the unsaid portion of my original post encouraging PBEM is the corollary that most of your AI concerns are not going away. I'm certain Andy and Matrix will continue to put effort into the AI, but it IS going to break the rules, and you ARE going to be able to tell.

I'm not trying to discourage you, just trying to lower your expectations for it. [;)]

[pmelheck1]

I just don't enjoy 2 player in any game.  I have tried it and it's just not my cup of tea.  I don't think 2 player is bad.  I think it should be in AE for the folks who enjoy it.  I'm just not one of those folks.  I some times play games en masse for a while but then do some thing else for a while.  I like AE and might play it for a 2-3 week binge of solid playing but then might not pick it up for several weeks.  A testamony from me to WITP and AE is I have never removed them from my PC sense launch, the only program I can say that about.  I would like to see the AI improved and I know this has GOT to be a topic of discussion at patch meetings.  As I stated earlier AE is a VERY complex program and requires VERY complex AI.  Matrix has been very supportive of the community and I don't expect this to change.  All I do is voice my issues on the boards to try and improve an outstanding product.  But if at the end of the day I'm told something can't be done I will trust it's true (for what ever reason) and accept it.  We all can enjoy games vs. the AI and PBEM, after all it takes all types for the very diverse community we have here.  I know everyone wants as good a game as I want.  Matrix has delivered but it can use some tweaking with out detracting from what an excellent game it is.

I have 2 sons with 3 computers all networked and I really don't enjoy any kind of multi player with them (and yes I have tried several games).  They enjoy the heck out of it and I don't discourage them but I just don't enjoy it.

[glen55]

ORIGINAL: mullk

For some of us the issue of PBEM has nothing to do with time.  I don't care how long or short PBEM is.  If turns took 15 seconds I DON'T CARE.  I just don't like two player games and I never will.  I NEVER buy any game that is two player only.  I am so disgusted with 2 player games I will quit computers before returning to them.  I do believe Matrix will get the AI working better at some point.  If I didn't think they can fix the AI I wouldn't be here and wouldn't buy anymore games from matrix if they can't program an AI.  AE is a very complex game requiring a very complex AI and from my experience with Matrix they will correct the AI.  But for some of us PBEM is not an issue for AI issues.

I'm like this. I'm not even slightly interested in PBEM. I'm sure it's wonderful and better than playing against the AI for those who like it, I just do not happen to be one of 'em.