Playtesters?

[bo]

ORIGINAL: Arctic Blast

Have you ever actually play tested a game, bo? Especially a game with a lot of depth and a lot of options? 6-10 play testers are never, ever going to find all the issues. It just isn't going to happen. Several thousand purchasers are a lot more likely to find all the problems that slipped through the cracks simply because there are more of them. They are also more likely to find technical issues because there are more of them with more varied computer setups with more varied software setups. Play testers do what they do on a voluntary basis for the most part in their spare time. They try to find whatever they can. However, they often have to start from scratch every single time a new Beta build is launched...sorry, but that can actually become somewhat of a grind after awhile. Still, they continue to try and find as much as they can.

Couple that with the simple fact that a game can't stay in Beta status forever and eventually has to be released so the developer can start to make some actual money back on their investment (an investment that is costing them every day it's in Beta), and not everything is going to be found. Never has been and never will be the case that testing is some foolproof way to find every flaw...it's just too complicated for that to even approach being realistic.

Artic, no I have not ever playtested a game even though I did offer Wastelands to help on their Pacific game and never even got an answer from them pro or con nice Huh! Must not like my posts. Thats not my problem Artic how many playtesters they have or dont have it usually does not cost them a dime because I assume playtesters do it for the love of computer war games not the money. I have to agree with you that thousands of players will find things that a few playtesters wont. But it should not occur in the first ten or 20 moves. And one other thing its how Wastelands respond to all the forum posters whether they are people who never find [ love the game] anything wrong or people like Michael, Willgamer and ME who would like to see a good game [TOW] become an even better game, and what comes out of this give and take determines in my mind whether I invest in any more of their games. Thats not a threat Artic because if their next game is halfway decent I would only be hurting myself as a player who likes good war games not to purchase it.

Bo

[Bleck]

All I can say is that (from what I am aware of) list of testers for SoP (aka "Pacific game") is still undefined (no public testing yet, only internal by Wastelands members) and maybe someone will contact you in right time.
More testers = more bugs founded and fixed = better for players. We deeply appreciate the fact that players are offering their time to help us.

[Tomokatu]

In that case, Bleck, please put my name on the list of volunteers for English language expression.
I wouldn't have the first idea about playtesting software as such, but I have successfully written in-house software operating manuals (in English) and cleaned up and polished English translations of Japanese manuals for hardware (real Japlish!).
 
I believe I can be of help in eliminating possible confusion for users in screen displays of text, events, report categories - whatever you like to throw at me.

[Arctic Blast]

ORIGINAL: bo

Artic, no I have not ever playtested a game even though I did offer Wastelands to help on their Pacific game and never even got an answer from them pro or con nice Huh! Must not like my posts. Thats not my problem Artic how many playtesters they have or dont have it usually does not cost them a dime because I assume playtesters do it for the love of computer war games not the money. I have to agree with you that thousands of players will find things that a few playtesters wont. But it should not occur in the first ten or 20 moves. And one other thing its how Wastelands respond to all the forum posters whether they are people who never find [ love the game] anything wrong or people like Michael, Willgamer and ME who would like to see a good game [TOW] become an even better game, and what comes out of this give and take determines in my mind whether I invest in any more of their games. Thats not a threat Artic because if their next game is halfway decent I would only be hurting myself as a player who likes good war games not to purchase it.

Bo

The Beta playtest period IS costing them money bo...they aren't paying the testers, but they ARE paying the developers the entire time. Meanwhile, since the game isn't available for sale, they aren't actually making any revenue back to cover their costs. For a big company, they can more or less shrug that period off and not feel the financial hit. For a small company, that's a rather crippling situation to be in for very long.

Now, I would agree that there does at times seem to be a bit of a disconnect between posts from the devs here and other forum users, but I chalk that up more to language issues than anything else.

[bo]

ORIGINAL: Arctic Blast

ORIGINAL: bo

Artic, no I have not ever playtested a game even though I did offer Wastelands to help on their Pacific game and never even got an answer from them pro or con nice Huh! Must not like my posts. Thats not my problem Artic how many playtesters they have or dont have it usually does not cost them a dime because I assume playtesters do it for the love of computer war games not the money. I have to agree with you that thousands of players will find things that a few playtesters wont. But it should not occur in the first ten or 20 moves. And one other thing its how Wastelands respond to all the forum posters whether they are people who never find [ love the game] anything wrong or people like Michael, Willgamer and ME who would like to see a good game [TOW] become an even better game, and what comes out of this give and take determines in my mind whether I invest in any more of their games. Thats not a threat Artic because if their next game is halfway decent I would only be hurting myself as a player who likes good war games not to purchase it.

Bo

The Beta playtest period IS costing them money bo...they aren't paying the testers, but they ARE paying the developers the entire time. Meanwhile, since the game isn't available for sale, they aren't actually making any revenue back to cover their costs. For a big company, they can more or less shrug that period off and not feel the financial hit. For a small company, that's a rather crippling situation to be in for very long.

Now, I would agree that there does at times seem to be a bit of a disconnect between posts from the devs here and other forum users, but I chalk that up more to language issues than anything else.

Now see Artic this is how I learn things I did not know before or had any knowledge about and thats by asking tough pointed questions and getting answers that make common sense like the one you just gave me thank you Artic.

Bo

[Arctic Blast]

You're welcome, bo. I don't know much, but what I do know I'm happy to share. [:D]

[Tomokatu]

bo, the questions don't have to be "tough and pointed".  Ordinary questions work well enough, too.

[bo]

ORIGINAL: Tomokatu

bo, the questions don't have to be "tough and pointed".  Ordinary questions work well enough, too.

Tom it Depends what network your on oooooops, bad comment.

Bo

[sullafelix]

I haven't seen the wording "  Soviet union was staggered by the initial attack of the Germans ". I don't remember the actual phrase but the gist to me was the Soviets were penalized for that turn and subsequent ones. I'm not sure if I get your complaint. I believe it is with the wording of the popup correct? Maybe my mind just translated it for me.

You do understand that all wargames are done by one or a few guys that have other " real " jobs right? The programmer for another game is actually on duty in Iraq! These are not done be EA or whomever. The Consoletext file for errors in scenarios etc. is in Polish. This is a company who released RTV and then instead of charging for even an upgrade released almost a new game in TOW for free to RTV purchasers. They are also still working on their original WW2 game that got them attention. Wastelands churns out updates like no other company I've seen. I have seen long lists of name changes for units that have been changed.

I would also add to the above postings that the Pacific War game is still far away from testing.

I don't believe in 40 years of wargaming I've completely agreed with everything a game company was trying to do or implement. I still see arguments about Prestag rules from SPI ( circa 1975 ) that go on in forums.

We playtesters also have a life and just as any group of people some are sticklers for everything and some take a more broad view. I believe the first time I saw the Russians getting penalized for their turns on declaring war against Germany and there was no combat for I believe 10-12 turns. I was surprised but in the end it made sense to me. All eastern front games try all different ways to simulate the Russian incompetence for the first year of war.

[bo]

ORIGINAL: sulla05

I haven't seen the wording "  Soviet union was staggered by the initial attack of the Germans ". I don't remember the actual phrase but the gist to me was the Soviets were penalized for that turn and subsequent ones. I'm not sure if I get your complaint. I believe it is with the wording of the popup correct? Maybe my mind just translated it for me.

You do understand that all wargames are done by one or a few guys that have other " real " jobs right? The programmer for another game is actually on duty in Iraq! These are not done be EA or whomever. The Consoletext file for errors in scenarios etc. is in Polish. This is a company who released RTV and then instead of charging for even an upgrade released almost a new game in TOW for free to RTV purchasers. They are also still working on their original WW2 game that got them attention. Wastelands churns out updates like no other company I've seen. I have seen long lists of name changes for units that have been changed.

I would also add to the above postings that the Pacific War game is still far away from testing.

I don't believe in 40 years of wargaming I've completely agreed with everything a game company was trying to do or implement. I still see arguments about Prestag rules from SPI ( circa 1975 ) that go on in forums.

We playtesters also have a life and just as any group of people some are sticklers for everything and some take a more broad view. I believe the first time I saw the Russians getting penalized for their turns on declaring war against Germany and there was no combat for I believe 10-12 turns. I was surprised but in the end it made sense to me. All eastern front games try all different ways to simulate the Russian incompetence for the first year of war.

Not a complaint Sulla more about jumping the gun, the penalty is correct and well done,
it just caught me by suprise when it was me the Russians who finally attacked Germany in early 42', the popup made no sense at all, not then and not now, it had no effect on the game at all but how was I to know that I had never gotten to this stage of the game before, I know sounds silly but it stunned me. It taught me another lesson do not fight on as I did with France when offerd Vichy France, because it confuses the German AI and all they did was sit in France trying to take out a few units for months on end. One other thing about me Sulla, when I buy a game from anybody I play test the hell out of it, I actually try everything, amphibs landings, paras, tanks infantry transporting units etc. I look for trouble and mistakes way before I even play my full first game and when I find it it upsets me. I feel I am wrong about getting upset and in the future will try harder not to be be so destructive with my comments, not a mean person Sulla just looking for that perfect elusive game that has great graphics, a good AI and well thought out menus.

Bo

[sullafelix]

10-4

I play exclusively against the AI in all my games so I'm vary aware of their strengths and weaknesses. I do like that a Russian AI will attack Germany in TOW and not just sit there and wait until it is attacked.Some games from the start are built with the idea of pbem or hotseat and the AI is an after thought.

Against an AI France you do have to keep fighting for everything if you don't take the Vichy option. In my last game it was Oct 40 and right then Russia attacked. Like I said the computer just milled around because of the penalty. Because after the penalty turns they went to town.

But you'll never find anyone who likes everything about a computer or board wargame. That's why we are call grognards. I think people are confused about where the nickname came from. It has nothing to do with comparing us to the Old Guard. It has to do with old men sitting around a boardgame arguing with each other. You don't invite old wargamers to play, just to drink beer and argue over the rules.

[Tomokatu]

You don't invite old wargamers to play, just to drink beer and argue over the rules

.
You supply the beer and I'll show up!

[AH4Ever]

ORIGINAL: bo

I got tired waiting for the German AI to attack me the Russians so I declared war on Germany in Sept 1941 to see what would happen ...

I got a pop up that said the Soviet union was staggered by the initial attack of the Germans, WHAT ATTACK? The Germans did not attack the Russians...

I am wondering if any of the other players saw this and just let it go as another mistake and no sense bringing it up. What else am I going to find as I go on?

I had the same reaction in one of the 1st games I played as the USSR, when I attacked to see if I could pre-empt Barbarossa. I ignored it and was able to overcome it due to a superior number of units.

You'll probably find, like I have, a number of things that will annoy and then disappoint.

ORIGINAL: cpdeyoung

Perhaps it should say "Staggered by the initial contact with the superior German ability.", but the same penalty should apply. No matter who initiates the battle, the Red Army is going to find out pretty quickly who is the master of the battlefield.

At most this is small phrasing problem, but the penalty is correct.

I have to disagree we'll never know how it would have turned out if the USSR had decided to head west before June '41. I'm thinking at the very least it would have been a

morale boost to take the fight to the Germans, instead of sitting back and waiting for the first punch to be delivered. Any decrease in effectiveness would most likely have

been logistical in nature, not due to some fear of facing the big bad Germans.

ORIGINAL: gwgardner

When the game doesn't follow the historical sequence, such events are jarringly out of place.

I agree and there is also a lack of "What If" events.

ORIGINAL: vonRocko

I also had high hopes for this game, but I'm going to put it in the "could have been great" file.[:(]

Me too.

ORIGINAL: Bleck

some things are not so easy to implement/fix because of engine (not designed by us) limitations.

This is unfortunate and not a great selling point, too bad Matrix has an All Sales Are Final policy.

[micheljq]

If you want an idea of what could have happened if the russian army would have attacked Germany in 1941.  You can check their first counteroffensives in 1941.  I guess it would give a good idea of the red army effectiveness at that time.  Good punch but not enough reserves to be able to exploit the breakthrough, when the attack finishes and the russians become desorganised, the germans counterattack and often encircles them and then they are out of supply and in deep trouble.  A little like the disaster of Tannenberg in 1915.

The red army's officers corps was full of "beniouioui" not able to take any initiative, controlled by the NKVD.  A lot of good officers (including those who gained a lot of experience in the Bolchevik's wars) were killed in 1936 by the Stalin's purges, where tens of thousands of red army's officers were eliminated.  I do not think that the red army if taking the initiative in 1941 or even 1942, would have gone very deep into german territory, at least on the first months of the war. Probably that the disaster of 1915 (Tannenberg) would have occurred again (maybe at a lesser level) since that red army had no real fighting experience, unless with any luck Zhukov would have been in charge.

But, just by taking the initiative and having a surprise effect and a morale boost, they could have been a serious nuisance indeed.