German production and other Qs

Eagle Day to Bombing of the Reich is a improved and enhanced edition of Talonsoft's older Battle of Britain and Bombing the Reich. This updated version represents the best simulation of the air war over Britain and the strategic bombing campaign over Europe that has ever been made.

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Hard Sarge
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RE: German production and other Qs

Post by Hard Sarge »


ORIGINAL: Tuk

Not quite sure what you're refering to here, Sir Humph. In a modernised version of the game engine you could implement a wide range of realism options but with regard to the existing game I have to say I find it disappointing that many of the questions I put in the opening post of this thread have gone unanswered. They deal with issues that a player has to understand if their in game decisions are to have anything like their desired effects. The questions arise because an explanation of production is omited from the manual and game interface and no adequate substitute for a manual is currently to be found on this forum.

I need answers to these questions to play the game so I'll put them again-

Is this formula correct?

1 capacity of assembly line + 1 completed parts of assembly type (1 parts capacity produces 1 parts unit) + 1/2/4 completed engine of assembly type (1 engine capacity produces 1 engine unit) + 1 day = 1 new aircraft.

Germany begins with no active ME 262 capacity in any category, yet a few days after changing some capacity it has gained a stockpile of parts/engines, has an "actual" production of 2 parts and with still no active assemblies, has ME 262 production requirements. What does this mean?
 
What do the headings in the requirements screen mean? (requirements/planned/actual/stockpile)
I ask the above because I can not make head nor tale of them. I do not understand how the planned and actual capacity relates (or should relate) to the capacity assigned to a given product. For example, I found in one case that the combined planned/actual capacity for one product was about double the capacity I'd asigned to it. Further, I don't understand how a gross undersupply of a product can leave me with a stockpile of the under supplied product.

Without a description of how the game should work, we players cannot determine whether or not it actually does work. Really, the manual needs updating with a production chapter so players don't have to spend hours trawling threads for scraps of often unconfirmed, implied information.

I mean, not trying to be smart, but most of your questions weren't answered, because, they didn't need answers

under production, it tells you what you need to make this plane, if it says, 1 engine and 1 part, when you have the Assembly picked, then yes, you need 1+1+1 and if build able, you should build it (other then troubles with Rail, production chances (I mean, you have one factory slot making the DB 628, you "should" make one DB 628 each day, but, maybe not, there is also chance in there)the rail line between this factory and that factory could of been hit/damaged, the UPS truck with the part you need may of ran off the road)

we can't give you a A=B, because there is also C and D and E and F and who knows how many other letters to add into the math

also remember, if you have 5 plane types that need the DB 605 Engine, and you "need" 30 Engines a day, but for what ever reason, have 20 a day being built, the "game" is going to decide which plane type is needed most, and build that plane, you may think plane 4 and 5 are the most importent, but the Game may think 1 and 2 are (you need to fire the manager)

about the 262, if you read some of the posts, there is a bug we found with Production, now corrected, so yes, you do have something being built, that should not be built

requirements/planned/actual/stockpile

what you need/what you have set to build/what you are building/how many built, that are not used for something yet


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Tuk
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RE: German production and other Qs

Post by Tuk »

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

I mean, not trying to be smart, but most of your questions weren't answered, because, they didn't need answers
Perhaps you could put yourself in the shoes of someone who has not been playing and working on this game since its predecessors came out. It's also worth remembering that without clarification, the same thing can often be understood in a number of ways. I've learned that taking my understanding of ambiguous things for granted without verifying what the author meant often comes back to bite me in the backside.

Your subsequent information demonstrates that there is much more going on than the simple equation I presented or the information buried in not so often accessed screens like that for changing an assembly line. If it all seems a waste of your time and if it's any consolation, in aswering these questions you have in fact saved a lot of mine![:)]

Thank you for doing so, I now have most of what I needed to know, though for your other customers I reitrerate that snippets of information all over a large forum is no substitute for a chapter on production in the manual.
ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge
requirements/planned/actual/stockpile

what you need/what you have set to build/what you are building/how many built, that are not used for something yet
Here's a great example of ambiguity, some of which I think I have figured out in much longer than it would have taken me to read it in a manual.

'planned' appears to include 'actual', also delayed capacity, is that right?

How, then, is the discrepency between the following production figures in the at start 1943 campaign accounted for?

There are 37 active Assembly lines, none damaged more than 36% (only two), needing 109 Parts, but production shows only 27 parts required.
There are 34 parts in both 'actual' and 'planned' and an online capacity for 34, indicating they are all operating at 100% efficiency.
There are 72 capacity producing DB 605A engines, which is reflected in the same 'actual' figure, more than the 61 required, so this isn't the bottleneck.

Is the game calculating a reduction of 10 parts from its stockpile of 22 to arrive at its 'required' figure of 27 or are rail damage and other factors affecting demand?
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Gen.Hoepner
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RE: German production and other Qs

Post by Gen.Hoepner »

There's something more i still don't understand.
 
How is working the factory upgrade?
I mean, when a newer model comes into production (let's say the F190A-7/8 over the A5/6) are the factories producing the older model auto-upgrading or do i need to manually re-convert them all, thus losing lots of days?
And if they do auto-upgrade, thing that i surely hope, what is the fate of the engine factories? Let's say the 109G10 comes into production. If the 109G6 assembly lines auto-upgrade to the newer model, what is the fate of those lines who were producing the DB605A? will they autoupgrade too? will i have to change them manually?
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RE: German production and other Qs

Post by Hard Sarge »

ORIGINAL: Tuk

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

I mean, not trying to be smart, but most of your questions weren't answered, because, they didn't need answers
Perhaps you could put yourself in the shoes of someone who has not been playing and working on this game since its predecessors came out. It's also worth remembering that without clarification, the same thing can often be understood in a number of ways. I've learned that taking my understanding of ambiguous things for granted without verifying what the author meant often comes back to bite me in the backside.
no hassle mate, just got home from work when I posted, hope I was able to answer some of your questions, with out being to smartaleck about it

LOL, you may be asking the wrong guy, nobody understands half of what I say, one reason I got so many posts, I got to keep reexplaining what I was trying to say

Your subsequent information demonstrates that there is much more going on than the simple equation I presented or the information buried in not so often accessed screens like that for changing an assembly line. If it all seems a waste of your time and if it's any consolation, in aswering these questions you have in fact saved a lot of mine![:)]

but as I was trying to say, there is no, A=B, so we can't give you the answers you want, Gary never just does, something simple, when he can make it complex

Thank you for doing so, I now have most of what I needed to know, though for your other customers I reitrerate that snippets of information all over a large forum is no substitute for a chapter on production in the manual.

I don't think it would be allowed for me to say what I think about the manual, but I will say, that I asked if I could include the "old" manuals with the game also, but that is against the rules, if that link is still good up on top, it may be worth it to grab them, just for a background on how the old game worked
ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge
requirements/planned/actual/stockpile

what you need/what you have set to build/what you are building/how many built, that are not used for something yet
Here's a great example of ambiguity, some of which I think I have figured out in much longer than it would have taken me to read it in a manual.

'planned' appears to include 'actual', also delayed capacity, is that right?
I asked/talked, I wanted the delay, offline factories to not show up, Harley took them out, so now the page should show, what is needed and what is planned, based on what is on the map

so, what is needed is what is needed
planned is what is set up, either waiting for delay to end, or in use
Actual is what is getting built (if all the rolls are made)
stockpile is what is left over


How, then, is the discrepency between the following production figures in the at start 1943 campaign accounted for?

There are 37 active Assembly lines, none damaged more than 36% (only two), needing 109 Parts, but production shows only 27 parts required.
can you get me some screenshots ? I am only guessing now
I would say here, you have 27 Frames being built, you have more parts being built then what is needed (you NEED 27 parts, to complete the frames you are building today (if you have the engines)

There are 34 parts in both 'actual' and 'planned' and an online capacity for 34, indicating they are all operating at 100% efficiency.
There are 72 capacity producing DB 605A engines, which is reflected in the same 'actual' figure, more than the 61 required, so this isn't the bottleneck.

Is the game calculating a reduction of 10 parts from its stockpile of 22 to arrive at its 'required' figure of 27 or are rail damage and other factors affecting demand?
I don't think so, it is showing you best case, this is what you should need, if everything falls into place today, rail/bombing,what not, takes effect afterward (you don't know if the train made it though Hamm last night/early this morning, or was held up due to the BC raid last night)

and even here, there are going to be things that are going to screw up your best laid plans to know what is going on

if you have parts in stock, they going to get used someday (hopefully)

and if I am right on you needing 27 for the frames, you going to be building up the stock, each day, now, say a big raid comes in and hits one of your Parts plant, all of a sudden, you are down 5 or 6 parts a day, do you make a major change someplace to get those parts back into production, do you wait on the factory to repair ?

you got parts in stock, also you may be making more then you need already, for this plane

remember, the game is not set up, so everything is set up 100% across the board, it is set up for the player or the AI to make the changes they want/need, and somebody on the outside, may have evil ideas about ruining your plans

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RE: German production and other Qs

Post by Hard Sarge »

ORIGINAL: Gen.Hoepner

There's something more i still don't understand.

How is working the factory upgrade?
I mean, when a newer model comes into production (let's say the F190A-7/8 over the A5/6) are the factories producing the older model auto-upgrading or do i need to manually re-convert them all, thus losing lots of days?
And if they do auto-upgrade, thing that i surely hope, what is the fate of the engine factories? Let's say the 109G10 comes into production. If the 109G6 assembly lines auto-upgrade to the newer model, what is the fate of those lines who were producing the DB605A? will they autoupgrade too? will i have to change them manually?

right now there is a bug in there, so it screws things up

if under AI control, it should handle it all, if it needs engines, it will change out to the engine it thinks it needs

from what I understand now (being told, waiting on the lastest) is the AI will look at what it has, what it needs, based on what it is using, and make changes based on that

Funny, Nick posted a screen shot, complaining about what he sees, I was very happy with alot of what I seen on that shot, is it perfect, no, but the "next" verison will work better then the last one, and there were good things in the last one

not sure if I am helping, or if I am talking in circles

most people like to take control of there production, but the AI will make changes if in control, based on what it thinks it needs

(Nick complained about all of the Me 163's being built, but, they were built, I think there are 5 units that need the plane, it is working as designed, may not be the best thing to build, but, it is building what it needs (and people may doubt it, but the 163 can fly, and does shoot down planes (Honestly :)

(what I think Nick is not following, there is not much the 163 can upgrade to, so it needs the rocket plane, for those units to have something to fly, if you don't build it, fine, you may get a better plane, but, you got 5 units sitting on the ground, with nothing to do, with better pilots then most units)
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RE: German production and other Qs

Post by Gen.Hoepner »

Ok, clear enough HS, thanks.
Basically what you're tellin' me is that if under Human controll, things won't autoupgrade. Not bad, it's ok, i just wanna be sure that if i change the production the AI won't change it back...
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RE: German production and other Qs

Post by Hard Sarge »

ORIGINAL: Gen.Hoepner

Ok, clear enough HS, thanks.
Basically what you're tellin' me is that if under Human controll, things won't autoupgrade. Not bad, it's ok, i just wanna be sure that if i change the production the AI won't change it back...

that is the plan, we put blocks in (ahhh, when I say we, I mean the Royal we, Harley does most of the work, I do most of the talking)

will need to get the next update to test it and make sure it works as intended, but it should be working

you know that is scary, if you can follow what I say
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Tuk
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RE: German production and other Qs

Post by Tuk »

but as I was trying to say, there is no, A=B, so we can't give you the answers you want, Gary never just does, something simple, when he can make it complex
 
No A=A? Self-identity is boring and unreal. The inter-relation of changing variables is what makes this game so absorbing and worth suffering the insufferable user interface.
 
There are 37 active Assembly lines, none damaged more than 36% (only two), needing 109 Parts, but production shows only 27 parts required....
 
can you get me some screenshots ?
 
Just open any new 1943 campaign and check the at start production. There are definitely 37 active assembly lines accross the three models using Bf 109 Parts- G5, G6, G6N. ...BUT... I now notice 10 assembly capacities- the discrepency between the requirement for 27 parts and the 37 active assembly capacity-have suffered some degree of damage.
 
Is is possible that damage to assemblies is treated differently from that to parts and engines facilities, or that the degree of damage affects production? Some Parts factories are damaged but all less than 20%. They are projected to produce normally. The 10 damaged assemblies are hit 34-36%.
 


 

 
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RE: German production and other Qs

Post by Klahn »

Also remember that damage to other critical industries for aircraft production, such as ball-bearing and aluminum plants will affect aircraft production totals.
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RE: German production and other Qs

Post by harley »

No, I get what Tuk is saying, and he's right.

I'm looking at it right now.


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RE: German production and other Qs

Post by harley »

OK, Better...

It was set to ignore any site over 25% damage. I changed that to 50%, which is the shutdown point. 2 at start facs are over 25% damaged.

What I then did was change the count to show adjusted output, so now it's still under the 37 possible, but over the 27 currently. As the factories repair, this will go up...


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Tuk
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RE: German production and other Qs

Post by Tuk »

Excellent.
 
What about this? I notice that adding rockets to Me 110B-2s, FW A6s and those Hungarian 210s (I haven't checked other types) makes no difference to their flight capabilities displayed in the unit window. Is this right?
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RE: German production and other Qs

Post by Hard Sarge »

yea basicly, I wasn't able (allowed) to make changes, the rockets work from the code, and not the data

(that is why nothing starts with Rockets on)

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RE: German production and other Qs

Post by Nicholas Bell »

yea basicly, I wasn't able (allowed) to make changes, the rockets work from the code, and not the data
(that is why nothing starts with Rockets on)

I'm a little unclear about this - but I think you are saying that although the data as presented in the air unit display does not change, it does have an effect on an aircraft's performance in-game.
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RE: German production and other Qs

Post by harley »

Yes, rockets have a fixed affect on performance... WGR's effect is different from R4Ms....

iirc the effect goes away after they are fired - this is why the airframe effects are not shown.
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RE: German production and other Qs

Post by Tuk »

Harley, it looks like fighters are only identifiable as rocket armed in the unit details screen. Is that right? If so, would it be possible to show "rocket armed" in some way on the interceptor assignment window?







I'm a few days into this game and have made some changes. Here's another production puzzle -



Junkers Jumo 213A engines are used by Ta 154 and Dora. Between those 2 models I have 13 assemblies, 12 Dora + 1 Ta 154, the latter is on long term delay, see pic for status of Dora sites. I have tons of engines, but a small deficit in parts active production although I still have 2 in stockpile.


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Tuk
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RE: German production and other Qs

Post by Tuk »

I have tons of engines, but a small deficit in active parts production although I still have 2 in stockpile.


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Tuk
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RE: German production and other Qs

Post by Tuk »

So any idea why my requirement for the JJ 213A engines is only 4? It looks like only the active assemblies show a requirement, which, if intentional, would mean that assemblies are handled differently from parts and engines which show as 'planned' even if on delay. Is that it?

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If this is a game problem rather than my misunderstanding of the game, I suggest the whole production system be checked out, this is one example of what I suspect is commonplace. Happy to help if I can.
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RE: German production and other Qs

Post by otisabuser2 »

Things look to make sense at the start of BoB.





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Focusing just on single engine fighters. Luckily they all initially use the same engine, the Merlin III and ALL factories are undamaged.

The key column here is "Required". This shows 10 parts each required for Spitfires and Hurricanes, and 3 more for Defiant models. This correctly reflects that Actual production (assembly ) of each is 10, 10 and 3. You would then suppose that the number of Merlin engines required would be 23, which is exactly as shown required. [:)]
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RE: German production and other Qs

Post by otisabuser2 »

Now to compare this with after one month of play.......



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There are no damaged factories, although some are changing over.

This is now showing 10 parts each required for Spitfires and Hurricanes, even though 8 assemblies of each are changing over to better marks. [&:]

There is still a requirement for a total of 23 ( 6 + 17 ) Merlins according to the "Required" column. This is again not an immediate requirement because 8 Hurricane and 8 Spitfire assemblies are changing over. [&:]

The 6 Merlin III are spot on ( 3 Defiant, 2 Spit I and 1 Hurri I in production ).

But, this is showing 17 merlin XII "Required". The game is only making 2 Spit II and 1 Hurri II currently. With the remainder due in 4 and 14 days)-

This will causing huge problems as total engine production in BoB is only half that actually needed by assemblies.

So "Required" means number that will be required once change-over delays finished.

What would be advantageous here is an extra "Currently Required" or "Needed Now" column ? Then amending "Required" to "Eventually Required".

Does that make sense ?
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