Yamato class conundrum

[Djordje]

You are looking at things backwards - Developers did not build Japanese economy and naval construction model first, and then put ships in it to be built.
They did reverse - They've researched and found every ship Japan had, and then they've made Japanese economy able to produce those ships and fine tuned it to make those ships arrive as close to their real life time schedule as possible.

So, Japanese economy in the game is not accurately representing the one in real life, but Japanese ships being built are very close to it, with their shakedown times being added to them. I am just saying that by moving Yamato and Musashi earlier one has to reduce Japanese naval shipyards as well since it will no longer be balanced system.

There is no such thing as 62 Yugumos planned but not being produced because 187 000 naval construction points is used to finish those two BBs. Japan was building what they could, as fast as they could, and all ships that have been built are in the game. Again, naval construction points are just a tool to get ships into the game at the right time, they are far far away from simulating real shipyard construction capacity that can be used on its own, without being related to the all ships that are in build queue.

[m10bob]

If the Yamato is released sooner for combat....what shall the officers do for a country club?

[Local Yokel]

Djordje: sorry, but I think it is you that has things backwards.  It has always been my understanding that the Japanese economy was modelled in the game because, historically, the Allies prosecuted a ruthless campaign of economic warfare against Japan.  They did so first by means of the submarine campaign against merchant shipping and later by heavy bomber attack against Japan's centres of industry.  The game needs to model the Japanese economy because failure to do so would deprive the Allied player of a means of reproducing the attack upon Japan's capacity to wage war.
 
Once a decision was made to model the Japanese economy in the game the inclusion of a shipbuilding element was unavoidable because shipbuilding soaked up so much of Japan's industrial capacity.  Imagine what the outcry would be if the Japanese player could build ships, planes, etc without his ability to do so being in any way affected by Allied attacks!
 
I also disagree that you unbalance the system by moving up Y and M's completion dates unless you also reduce the number of naval shipyards.  Or are you suggesting that the number of shipyards was deliberately increased in the game to reflect the fact that these two battleships would be consuming shipbuilding resources in excess of what they would have consumed historically?  I find it very hard to believe that that's what the developers did.
 
m10bob: Yamato was frequently referred to by her crew as 'the Yamato Hotel', although during the two ships' sojourn at Truk they were also referred to as 'the Yamato School'  and 'the Musashi Gymnasium'.  If all else fails there's got to be a Co-Prosperity Sphere associate of M&M Enterprises that can fill the gap.[;)]

[Smeulders]

Just imagine that in real life the two battleships were accelerated by the Japanese, so if you do that in game they'll arrive closer to their real life schedule. Problem more or less solved.

[DivePac88]

You just have to wonder that because of the economic effort that went into building M and Y, that the Japanese Admirals were a bit hesitant about deploying them. It seems strange that M and Y lay at Truk while the two Kongo's fought and died in the waters around Guadalcanal. I know that the Japanese used the excuse on themselves that there was not enough sea-room around Guadalcanal to operate these monsters. That it was also thought that M and Y did not process the speed to be clear of American land based air by dawn. Those excuses have always seemed thin to me, given that these vessels were used in the Philippines in just these type of waters later in the war.

[Q-Ball]

Miller got me thinking on his comment. With Musashi building, the only thing you are able to accelerate without a big Naval Shipyard expansion, which is problematic in itself, are the Unryus, because they are pretty cheap. Otherwise, sub construction gets very behind.

With Musashi halted, Taiho can accelerate, and enter in early '43, when she will be very much needed. I'm sold on this approach, I think Musashi is going to have to wait until the CV's are clear, if then. I made this change, and was pleased with the result in tracker.

Halting Shinano is a no-brainer, but I am now an advocate of halting Musashi. She might eventually build (unlike Shinano), but maybe not. She is an EXPENSIVE ship, just like RL.

Tough decision, because I really like the Yamato class for the COOL factor, but when you think with your head, the value isn't there.

[Mike Solli]

I have a different philosophy on Japanese BBs.  To me, they are cruiser killers.  Until the Allies begin to get their volumes of BBs, many of their TFs have nothing bigger than CAs in them.  If the Japanese BBs can ambush them, they can slaughter them.  If the Japanese BBs tangle with Allied BBs, they will either win (and take significant damage), or draw or lose.  All three outcomes are a loss in my opinion.  So my thought is to take the Musashi early or not at all.

[seydlitz_slith]

ORIGINAL: DivePac88

You just have to wonder that because of the economic effort that went into building M and Y, that the Japanese Admirals were a bit hesitant about deploying them. It seems strange that M and Y lay at Truk while the two Kongo's fought and died in the waters around Guadalcanal. I know that the Japanese used the excuse on themselves that there was not enough sea-room around Guadalcanal to operate these monsters. That it was also thought that M and Y did not process the speed to be clear of American land based air by dawn. Those excuses have always seemed thin to me, given that these vessels were used in the Philippines in just these type of waters later in the war.

I think that it stems from a couple of factors.
1. They sucked so much fuel that the Japanese could not afford to have them do much more than swing around the buoy.
2. Due to their size, any damage would require a trip back to Japan to repair.

On the sea room issue, remember that early in the war a couple of Japanese carriers had to go to dock after hitting uncharted reefs. The same risks would apply for using the Yamatos around Guadalcanal. By the time of the Philippines battles this wasn't so critical. The navy new they were losing and was desperate to show that they could still cause damage or at least die with honor.

[Djordje]

ORIGINAL: Local Yokel
Djordje: sorry, but I think it is you that has things backwards.  It has always been my understanding that the Japanese economy was modelled in the game because, historically, the Allies prosecuted a ruthless campaign of economic warfare against Japan.  They did so first by means of the submarine campaign against merchant shipping and later by heavy bomber attack against Japan's centres of industry.  The game needs to model the Japanese economy because failure to do so would deprive the Allied player of a means of reproducing the attack upon Japan's capacity to wage war.

And it is modeled, the economy is there to be destroyed by allies. I never said that game does not need to model Japanese economy. I deliberately did not want to bring land and air component of the industry into conversation as it uses the same logic, and would only confuse people more.

I just said the economy was adjusted to ships being built, not the ships to the economy. So the ships that have been built in real life have been put into the game, and then MODEL of the industry was adjusted to produce historical results. Remove ships from the build list without changing current model and you will get game model able to produce ships faster than in real life. Add new ships to the queue and game model won't be able to produce them all.

Now, by moving Yamato and Musashi earlier you are in fact almost removing them from building queue (Yamato almost completely, Musashi less but still significant), thus leaving the naval construction model with more construction points than it was planned by developers for the rest of the ships in the queue. Therefore you are getting more naval construction capacity than Japan historically had.

Once a decision was made to model the Japanese economy in the game the inclusion of a shipbuilding element was unavoidable because shipbuilding soaked up so much of Japan's industrial capacity.  Imagine what the outcry would be if the Japanese player could build ships, planes, etc without his ability to do so being in any way affected by Allied attacks!

Now that you mention it, Japan already has bonus here. I am talking about immunity of the ships being built. So we are building CVs in 1944 and 1945, Allies are bombing Japan daily and suddenly brand new CV is finished in Kure / Osaka / Kobe, Tokyo or wherever, even though ports of those cities were bombed daily and are in ruins.

I also disagree that you unbalance the system by moving up Y and M's completion dates unless you also reduce the number of naval shipyards.  Or are you suggesting that the number of shipyards was deliberately increased in the game to reflect the fact that these two battleships would be consuming shipbuilding resources in excess of what they would have consumed historically?  I find it very hard to believe that that's what the developers did.

I am suggesting exactly that, the construction model was adjusted to be able to produce all the ships in the right time. Those numbers of shipyards are relative, they could have had value of 100 000 or just 17, it would not matter as long as the rest of the model was adjusted to produce ships right on time. Construction model had to simplify all the complexity of ship production and devs did a great job with that.

If you think that 100 shipyards in the game can linearly be converted to exact numbers in real life I would like to hear it, how many tons of shipping can 100 in-game shipyards build, in what time frame and using how much steel and other materials?

In the game we have ships, the time when they have to appear on map and industry that has to produce them (just to be available as bombing target). All the ships are known, their time of arrival is known, only variable is industry and it should be adjusted to match first two constants. Adjust ships and times to industry instead and this becomes management game, not a war one.

[BrucePowers]

I still think the editor gives the players on both sides of this issue what they want out of the game.

[bklooste]

Those are very valid points ... The lost shipyard points are a major issue far more serious than a ship with gunnery errors. Maybe better to start her with some damaged guns.

The feb date is more resonable since she was in shipyard .

ORIGINAL: Local Yokel

ORIGINAL: DivePac88

So these historical records show that YAMATO was not operational until 27 of May.

Quite so, but this doesn't alter the fact that the game design apparently expects us to work up our new warships to an operational state. Nor does it explain why some corresponding delay is not applied to other vessels, such as Junyo and Hiyo.

There's another consequence to the delayed arrival of these battleships, in the form of the substantial added expenditure of naval shipyard points. By my reckoning Yamato arrives 153 days after her historical completion date, and Musashi 115. On each of those days an additional 233 shipyard points are expended on entirely notional 'construction'. I make that 62,444 shipyard points obtained at an HI cost of 187,332 points. My arithmetic is notorious, but to put that in context it appears to be the equivalent in shipyard points of no less than sixty-two Yugumo class destroyers.

Boy is that a high price to pay for Yamato's main director team being unable to read their range scale!

[xj900uk]

You also have to remember that the Yamato & Musashi were far bigger & more cumbersome than anything ever seen or experienced before.  + the fact that there were very few facilities outside of Japan that could accept or doc such behomoths.  I would have thought going slowly and surely with familiarisation surface trials, training, workup and coming to understand the complexities and problems of such large surface units was a must - after all nobody knew how something that big and heavy would handle and if the hull wouldn't strain or crack under its own weight.