It's a shame...

killroyishere · Post by **killroyishere** » Tue Nov 24, 2009 9:19 pm

Now I agree about SMAC and it's expansion Crossfire. Best of the best. Between it and Civilization and Master of Orion 2 and Master of Magic one really doesn't need anymore games. (prepares shield for the storm).[:D]

Janster · Post by **Janster** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:04 am

Sword of the stars AI is pretty competent, the battle part is quite fun, and not at all a walkover.

Seriously, comparing Adv Civ and the CIV pc games? Only thing they got in common is the name.
The Total War AI was rubbish at release, still is a pretty sad, but I just played 150 rounds of this game...and eh despite playing like a moron I had more problems keeping my planets happy than actually being threatened by the other 12 empires. Mostly they spammed me with peace and when I got tired of them and invaded I massacred a bunch of space marines, and eventually like 15 rounds later 2 of his ships showed up and got massacred by me.

Maybe it was a particularly weak computer player..shrug.

Anguille · Post by **Anguille** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 6:01 am

ORIGINAL: killroyishere
That's like saying Lucas isn't responsible for the great Star Wars games we play on the PC. Sid was a consultant on those games he no longer needed to get his hands dirty with programming or Basic design features. Afterall the Civilization series is pretty much like the first one all the way to the forth one there's just a few changes in each one. The game principle and mechanics are still the same as the first one though and he was responsible for that. [:D]

Well...we clearly don't agree...but that's fine. [;)]

killroyishere · Post by **killroyishere** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 6:08 am

Doesn't matter whether we agree or not the "facts" take precedence. [;)]

Anguille · Post by **Anguille** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 6:25 am

ORIGINAL: killroyishere

Doesn't matter whether we agree or not the "facts" take precedence. [;)]

Like...Mr Caveman invented bread...now, the latest type of breads is called "Caveman's Bread 10'000"...sure

killroyishere · Post by **killroyishere** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 6:28 am

Apples and oranges now we aren't talking about cavemen or bread we are talking about Sid Meier's influence and direct design of the Civilization series through IV. [:'(]

Anguille · Post by **Anguille** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 6:40 am

ORIGINAL: killroyishere

Apples and oranges now we aren't talking about cavemen or bread we are talking about Sid Meier's influence and direct design of the Civilization series through IV. [:'(]

The first idea of the game was in the board game. Sid Meier was inspired by that game. Ok, he was the first to implement this idea on a computer game...he made a fairly good/clever move by putting his name on the game (unlike most designers) and he'll get the credits for all eternity...very clever...

killroyishere · Post by **killroyishere** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 8:32 am

Ok what did the lead designers of II, III and IV do? Did they not copy the basic game elements that Sid designed in the very first one? Although he wasn't involved as the lead designer what he designed first was the basis for those series II, III and IV. You can see as clearly as I can the elements of the very first Civilization in all of them. In fact IV actually went back to the grass roots of the origional by adding in options so people could select things like aggressive ai and barbarians. Civ IV is nothing more than a CIV I on graphics steroids and more computer opponents to play against and religion and resources. Hardly something innovating or revolutionary from the first one.

Also the only comparisons that come close to Civilization from Avalon Hill is the title itself and this was proven not a copyrightable word because of common issues and all that blah. The Avalon Hill game goes nowhere into the future and hardly even out of it's own era. It's a totally different concept and totally a different game mechanic than Sid's Civilization. Drawing influence from soemthing is one thing, using exact design ideas is another. That is what the lead designers of Civilization II, III and IV did they used Sid's exact design ideas and just either improved upon them or added a few new tweaks like religion and resources.

Anguille · Post by **Anguille** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 9:48 am

Let me see...

Brett Sperry was one of the first to create a RTS with Dune II....so we have Brett Sperry's Age of Empires, Brett Sperry's Warcraft, Brett Sperry's Starcraft, Brett Sperry's Empire Earth and so on (all based on the same concept - idea).

Or

Walter Bright for Turn-based strategy game....making Walter Bright's Civilization, Walter Bright's Total War etc...

I do like Sid, he's a nice guy and a fantastic marketing guy...[;)]

Again...i love all Civilization games, they are great and one of the best franchise around....still, Sid is not a god or the genius. I don't see the point to mention his name all the time. Many GREAT designers have contributed to the 4x games we enjoy so much.

Cheers

PS: i know fairly well the Avalon board game as i own it too. The basic concept is the same even if the computer version has been much expanded.

Meier admits to "borrowing" many of the technology tree ideas from a board game also called Civilization (published in the United Kingdom in 1980 by Hartland Trefoil (later by Gibson Games), and in the United States in 1981 by Avalon Hill). The early versions of the game even included a flier of information and ordering materials for the board game. There is now a board game based on the computer game version of Civilization

...

The original "Civilization" computer game was one of the earliest computer games, written in 1972 on an HP2000 at Evergreen State College.

killroyishere · Post by **killroyishere** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 1:33 pm

You didn't answer my question you went off on one of those apples and oranges tangents again. I think they call what you did a strawman exercise. You eluded the questions because you know I'm right and don't want to admit defeat. That's ok I understand there are lots of people in the world like that. Just can't stand to lose so they run away, change the subject or cower in a corner somewhere sucking their thumb. [:D]

Edit: Oh btw Sperry didn't invent RTS. You better go futher back to the 1980's and find a little game called Combat Leader and Battalliion Commander. These were the first pc elements of rts long before Sperry hit the scene.

Anguille · Post by **Anguille** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 1:41 pm

ORIGINAL: killroyishere
Edit: Oh btw Sperry didn't invent RTS. You better go futher back to the 1980's and find a little game called Combat Leader and Battalliion Commander. These were the first pc elements of rts long before Sperry hit the scene.

You're a funny guy...and persistant...[;)]

Sperry was an example...and you just prove my point...there's always someone "before".

I didn't avoid your question...Reynolds, Sorensen etc have indeed copied the ideas of the original Civ game as much as Sid has copied from others...

PS: you didn't reply to my points either (previous post).

killroyishere · Post by **killroyishere** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 1:44 pm

Reynolds, Sorensen etc have indeed copied the ideas of the original Civ game

Yay I win. [:D]

Anguille · Post by **Anguille** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 1:45 pm

ORIGINAL: killroyishere

Reynolds, Sorensen etc have indeed copied the ideas of the original Civ game

Yay I win. [:D]

If you're happy with so little, be my guest [8|]

killroyishere · Post by **killroyishere** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 1:46 pm

If you're happy with so little, be my guest

Yay a double victory. [:'(]

Anguille · Post by **Anguille** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 1:48 pm

ORIGINAL: killroyishere

If you're happy with so little, be my guest

Yay a double victory. [:'(]

Lol [>:]

killroyishere · Post by **killroyishere** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 1:50 pm

Just for your own victory I've read some of your reviews over at the wargamer and I really like them. [:)] Just don't go slaggin Sid though.[:'(]

Anguille · Post by **Anguille** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 1:51 pm

ORIGINAL: killroyishere

Just for your own victory I've read some of your reviews over at the wargamer and I really like them. [:)] Just don't go slaggin Sid though.[:'(]

Thanks.

I won't [;)]. As i said, i do like him and his games...just don't think he's the only one to make good games worth mentionning.

killroyishere · Post by **killroyishere** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 2:03 pm

It's funny because Sid is the main one that sticks out in my mind of great game designers (probably because he puts his name on the cover of the game? yah think?). Brad with Stardock is becoming popular with me but I couldn't tell you his last name for the life of me. All that comes to mind is Quaid. lol There's also some of the older ones that are no longer around like Dave Landrey of the SSI era. Norm Koger? I think that's how you spell his last name. I know Joel Billings is around here somewhere and of course Gary Grigsby of Gary Grigsby wargame fame. A game I totally enjoy Master of Magic I couldn't tell you a single soul of who designed that one. I've never been really good with names or caring about them. Same with music. I can tell you songs I like but couldn't tell you the author for the majority of them. I think the guy who did the origional pc RTS game was David Hille and that's really drawing back in my memory as that game came out around 84 I believe. Lol check out the graphics for this game http://www.gamefaqs.com/computer/c64/image/955607.html It's really hard finding information on it now too.

Anguille · Post by **Anguille** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 2:19 pm

Master of Magic was done by Steve Barcia...the same guy who did Master of Orion and Master of Orion 2 [;)]

GalCiv 1 & 2 were done by Brad Wardell.

killroyishere · Post by **killroyishere** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 2:25 pm

Master of Magic was done by Steve Barcia...the same guy who did Master of Orion and Master of Orion 2

Wow I didn't know that he did the Master of Orion series as well. Where is he today? What is he doing? Was he on the MOO 3 team?

Lol look at this review of Combat Leader way back then:
http://www.zzap64.co.uk/cgi-bin/display ... ap&check=1

Wow it is amazing all the time that has gone by since then. All the wonderful games I've played too.

Also look under "Origionality" what does it say? [:D] "Real time action - Unusual in wargames" [:'(]

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