Moderator: Harpoon 3
I find it quite fascinating that a true professional and a self-professed total noob both come to the same conclusion while AGSI did not. Looks like some logic is immutable.ORIGINAL: navwarcol
Generally, also, an 'unknown' contact of ANY kind is presumed hostile if the situation is a wartime situation.
Herman drools. I think that everyone is going to hold you to that promise of a new scenario! [:D]ORIGINAL: navwarcol
I may design one of my own during the holidays, and see.
The way ANW currently works, you had better convene a court-martial right quick!ORIGINAL: navwarcol
The more I look at this, the more I think, that the current model here is fairly accurate, IF it is because the ASW side has trouble finding the sub. If , instead, it is because it refuses to prosecute the sub, then probably harpoon should allow for courts martial.[:)]
Have you read a Harpoon forum lately? I can't think of a group of people more in desperate need of psychiatric help than the Harpoon community. Where do I schedule my appointment? [:D]ORIGINAL: navwarcol
My experience has always been limited to analyzing the actions and abilities of the people who are trying to harm the "true professionals", and many times, that comes closer to psychiatry than it does to naval warfare [:)]
ORIGINAL: VCDH
I remember a large PBX game played once that resulted in a rather novel attack against a US carrier. The attack used high speed missiles [AS-16s?] launched by Blackjack bombers in a storm, and the attackers used enough missiles to defeat the effects of the weather and smoke the carrier. The was sufficient [a massive understatement I might add] outrage that experienced Harpoon players from outside the game were brought in to replay the scenario twice. In both cases the result was the same so the decision stood, even after the most worst weather modifiers were applied. I don't know what happened to the game after but I do know that many players were disillusioned at the reaction of other players of a US carrier being sunk.
ORIGINAL: navwarcol
Ralf,
I think, that scenario, if I am thinking of the correct one here, let the subs begin, nearly in attack position, already. Once a sub is already in attack position, and is able to creep, it IS going to do damage. The primary challenge, from the sub captain's perspective, would be attaining that attack position.
It is possible that some of the older scenarios began with subs already in place, or at least, in the path that the SAG/CVBG would have to transit. The true challenge is already a given by then. Set up a scenario where the sub needs to move to get into position, and it runs a lot different.
I think, what we have been looking at, is not broken. We are just looking at the wrong part of the equation. I just set up a sample run scenario where the sub had to move to get into position, and it is properly IDed and attacked by the AI. That is the crux here. If you have a stealth platform, and you make everything go "right" for it, of course, it will be successful. So, it is up to the scenario designer, to not have it set up already in nearly the perfect place. Make it maneuver to get into its ground. If a sub is truly just creeping, nobody, except MAYBE another sub, will be able to track and attack it.
I realize the reason scenario designers usually set up the subs, is because the hours of time a sub will take to get in position, may not be very exciting to play out..but that would have far more realistic results..To sum up..the engine seems to work fine on ASW, the only problem I am seeing is in scenarios where the designer already has the sub in its kill position, and even irl, once that is attained, it will do its damage.
I can't agree with that, at all. The scenario situations I am testing find this to be quite irrelevant. It does not matter whether or not the sub is already in firing position or moving to penetrate a formation from a hundred miles away. As long as a quiet sub does not increase speed past Creep throttle, it can easily penetrate a US CVBG.ORIGINAL: navwarcol
I think, that scenario, if I am thinking of the correct one here, let the subs begin, nearly in attack position, already. Once a sub is already in attack position, and is able to creep, it IS going to do damage. The primary challenge, from the sub captain's perspective, would be attaining that attack position.
It is possible that some of the older scenarios began with subs already in place, or at least, in the path that the SAG/CVBG would have to transit. The true challenge is already a given by then. Set up a scenario where the sub needs to move to get into position, and it runs a lot different.
ORIGINAL: hermanhum
ORIGINAL: navwarcolI've attached a screenshot from the latest test. A sub can clearly be seen penetrating a screen. In fact, the AI has already detailed a Viking to prosecute it. It has perfect location data due to the escort's active sonar, yet it fails to fire a single shot even though it is clearly within ASW range. This happens time, and time, again.
I can't see the little line [course] of the submarine. This means that the submarine has been detected, but, exact position is still unknown.
So, the Viking would not launch a weapon. In such cases I just push F1 and force the aircraft to launch the torpedo. Once the torpedo is in the water, the submarine reacts and the path of the sub becomes visible on the screen and the units in that particular mission will launch their weapon [if they are in firing range]. Sometimes you see that the submarine suddenly is somewhere else, on the exact location.
That's my experience with this situation.
Cheers,
Taitennek
I am interpreting NoMission to mean units that are Unassigned. Is this correct?ORIGINAL: rsharp@advancedgamin
If there are other situations in 3.10 where a sub of unknown posture or class is not being fired on, let me know. Keep in mind that the mission of the surface group is what determines who and what to attack. This includes the Plotted and NoMission missions.
The scenario you are looking at is "Mugging the Forrestal" from the Blue Water Navy battleset. You are in quite a fortuitous situation because you own both versions of H3 are able to play this scenario in both the original H3.6.2 version and in ANW 3.9.4 so that you can do an objective comparison. My experience with this scenario is that I usually lose when I play the USSR sub side in H3.6.2 because the AI is all over me like bees on honey. However, in ANW 3.9.4, I can't lose as long as I never accelerate past creep speed before firing. By all means, try it for yourself. It only takes a few minutes to verify this to your own satisfaction.ORIGINAL: navwarcol
For your sub, a question however. Are you saying you achieved firing position on a moving CVBG by entirely creeping the sub and never having to move above the stealth speeds? I think, I must have misunderstood that, but I am just clarifying. If it is so, the carrier group was going far too slow, and it is amazing that the sub found them in the first place to launch its own attack, as they would have been barely making steerage, and nearly 'stealthy' in their own right.
Also, an off topic note to you Herman..tried your db for the first time, very well done.[:)]
I believe that this is inaccurate. Yellow is the colour for a contact with the side Unknown. Green is the colour of a contact that is known to be neutral.ORIGINAL: navwarcol
One other quick note...active sonar does not give an instant detection unless you are inside of its (usually very limited) range. And, I notice the sub contact is yellow, which means it is being IDed as a neutral, so, you do have something there.
All very interesting points, but I think you are losing sight of the fact that the human is in control of the submarine. He does not have to increase speed unless he chooses to do so. Of course, if he wishes to risk counter-detection and attack by the AI forces, then he can accelerate and launch his attack. However, if he wishes to remain stealthy and then look for another opportunity to attack in the future (a wiser choice, IMO), he just needs to creep away and then make another approach at a time of his choosing.ORIGINAL: navwarcol
Still, though, I think, if the sub manages to get that close, it deserves its shot[;)] It should have been prosecuted on the way in..if that surface group was moving at, say 10kts, unless the sub was already in position essentially, there would have had to be a point along the way where the sub was above creep speeds...even the difference of 5-10 nm off the course, a very small distance, would require the sub to accelerate to the intercept point, before their targets vacated the area. Also, the a/c would not be able to prosecute a torpedo launch from full speed, (or, should not be able to, I will have to see if it can in H3)and most ship based ASW weapons have a shorter range than many opfor torpedos ...so once the sub is past whatever air assets you have, it is quite likely to fire off it's torpedoes whether or not the ships fire off their ASW weaps.
