Moderator: maddog986
ORIGINAL: Hertston
There was/is a 'colorized' version floating around that got at least one showing on TV in the UK, which might be the one you recall seeing. As I recall, it looks bl**dy awful.
ORIGINAL: MikeBrough
'It takes an Irishman to play the pipes'??? Traitorous swine.
ORIGINAL: Joe D.
But there's another wrinkle; as Good Guy posted, the filming for TTT was an enormous expense, but then add the cash the producers "wasted" on hiring Akira Kurosawa to direct the Japanese scenes, only to later fire him for attempting to "cast friends and business associates in key roles in the film's Japanese segments as a quid-pro-quo for later funding of future films. Twentieth Century Fox was not amused by this, and finally, the breach became the cause for Kurosawa's dismissal from the project."
re IMDb, "Of all the time and money spent by Akira Kurosawa, less than one minute of the film he shot is in the final release version." http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0066473/trivia
There was a great deal of $ spent and mis-spent on this film, so there had to be cuts somewhere, and apparently it was in the cast.
ORIGINAL: Joe D.
Yeah, but after learning that DDs played such a key role in securing the Omaha beach-head, I have the same problem watching the end of TLD as I do watching "Midway" after reading Shattered Sword.
ORIGINAL: GoodGuy
Well, according to most sources (incl. imdb IIRC), Kurosawa had been lured into the project ...
You don't know how much of the budget had been "burned" that way, actually. I think you're drawing a false conclusion there ...
[/center]ORIGINAL: GoodGuy
ORIGINAL: Joe D.
Yeah, but after learning that DDs played such a key role in securing the Omaha beach-head, I have the same problem watching the end of TLD as I do watching "Midway" after reading Shattered Sword.
... The DDs might have helped, and there were surely more than those 2 DDs, but they did not play a key role. Although their small calibre guns and machine guns were actually the only fire support at hand, and although they could possibly provide sufficient fire suppression on MG nests here and there, they could not penetrate sea walls, or sufficiently suppress bunkers and coastal gun installations..
[/center]
ORIGINAL: Doggie
ORIGINAL: MikeBrough
'It takes an Irishman to play the pipes'??? Traitorous swine.
Is it true that Bagpipes were the evolution of a Scottish custom of running about with an indignant pig under the arm? I've heard Scots were so fond of little piggies they couldn't bear to part with them until sheep came along.
ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd
So he wa...Pvt Flannigan apparently!
ORIGINAL: Joe D.
According to a History Channel special that featured newly discovered aerial maps of the beach head, Gen. Bradley was at the point of withdrawing the Omaha landing forces, but then used his last "ace": the DDs.
The HC said the DDs moved-in at point-blank range and obliterated German positons; the show presented aerial photos of the DDs in action to back-up their claim.
ORIGINAL: COMINCH P-006
Amphibious Operations
Invasion of Northern France
Western Task Force
June 1944
Chapter II
Naval Gunfire
page 5
From: Commander Assault Force "0", (Commander Eleventh Amphibious Force).
At this juncture the destroyers CARMICK, DOYLE, MCCOOK, THOMPSON, FRANKFORD, HARDING, EMMONS, and BALDWIN and the three British Hunts MELBREAK, TALYBONT and TANATSIDE closed the beach and took under fire many of the enemy positions. Their fire was directed in part from the ships and in part from Shore Fire Control Parties which managed to set up communications. Too much credit cannot be given the destroyers which participated in this bombardment. Lacking complete knowledge of their own troops positions, and hard pressed to pick out enemy positions, they closed in some cases to within 800 yards of the beach. Position after position was taken under direct fire. It is certain that they destroyed many of the enemy positions and it is probable that without their assistance the casualties on the beach would have been considerably higher.
page 13
From: Deputy Commander Destroyer Fire Support Group. Force "0", (Commander Destroyer Division 36).
At H minus 40 minutes (0550 B) or shortly thereafter all destroyers opened fire on their assigned targets. Coastal artillery immediately answered the fire and from then on until late the next day all destroyers were under intermittent fire by enemy coastal defenses, mortars and heavy machine guns. During the period of scheduled fire from H minus 40 minutes to H hour it was necessary for the destroyers to occasionally shift fire from their assigned target to some enemy gun that was shooting at them. In most of these instances a few salvos were sufficient to temporarily silence these enemy guns and fire was then immediately shifted back to scheduled targets. The fire of all destroyers during this period was fast and accurate. There were no material or personnel casualties during this phase of the Support Fire although many enemy shells fell close aboard the destroyers. As the first wave closed the beach the Fire Support destroyers preceded them closing the beach to from one thousand (1000) to two thousand (2000) yards. At 0617 (H minus 13 minutes) LCT(R)s commenced firing rockets drenching the area just inland from the beaches. Fire from this beach was temporarily silenced and the entire area covered with heavy smoke and dust. Troops landed and proceeded up the beach into the smoke.
From the landing of the troops until the establishment of Shore Fire Control Parties the Fire Support Destroyers fired on targets of opportunity. It is considered that the support of destroyers during this phase was not utilized to over twenty (20) percent of their possibilities. There was no communication with the beach and on numerous occasions destroyers could not fire on targets which should have been fired on because they did not know the location of our own troops. This is a most crucial period in the assault and some method of communication between troops and Fire Support Ships must be devised. The Destroyers acquitted themselves well indeed whenever a target presented itself. Numerous guns firing on the beaches were detected by their flashes and were destroyed by the Fire Support Ships. The destroyers closed to less than a thousand (1000) yards from the beach, the fire of each ship being directed by the Commanding Officer.
During the remainder of the day Fire Support Destroyers fired at targets as directed by Shore Fire Control Parties, Commander Destroyer Squadron EIGHTEEN, Commander Task Group 124.9, and by their own commanding officers. (For individual ship targets and ammunition expenditure on each target see Reports of Action by Ships). At 1750 SATTERLEE had fired over seventy (70) percent of her bombardment ammunition. Directed THOMPSON to relieve her in support of Rangers and shifted my pennant and staff to HARDING. SATTERLEE departed Fire Support Area to report to Area Screen Commander. At 1800 BARTON (Commander Destroyers Squadron SIXTY) and O'BRIEN reported to Fire Support Area and were assigned stations and Shore Fire Control Parties. At 2000 directed CARMICK to report to Area Screen Commander she having expended over seventy (70) percent of her bombardment ammunition. OMAHA beaches were under sporadic but heavy shelling during most of the afternoon and evening of D day. This fire came from sources Fire Support Ships had great difficulty in locating. However it was evidently controlled by observers watching the beaches. There were numerous houses behind the beaches and on adjacent hills and cliffs overlooking the beaches which had not been thoroughly shelled even at this late date. I believe that this was a costly error on our part and for future landing operations I strongly advocate the demolishment of all structures, houses, churches, etc., that could possibly house light artillery, machine guns, mortars and/or observation and communication posts prior to and immediately after the landing of troops. This could have readily been done by the destroyers but by the time we realized this our troops were advancing and we were unable to obtain permission to shell any but a few of the most obvious. It was most galling and depressing to lie idly a few hundred yards off the beaches and watch our troops, tanks, landing boats, and motor vehicles being heavily shelled and not be able to fire a shot to help them just because we had no information as to what to shoot at and were unable to detect the source of the enemy fire. Advancing troops must have some visual means to call for immediate fire support from close Fire Support Ships. A mortar shell with a distinctively colored smoke would have been most effective and would have insured immediate destruction of a target so designated.
ORIGINAL: page 18, 19
From: USS FRANKFORD (DD).
Conclusions and Recommendations. In spite of the difficulty of the lack of a shore fire control it is felt that the fire delivered on targets of opportunity was effective and of material aid to the troops on the beach. Some of the targets selected may have been already immobilized but every effort was made by this vessel to fire on targets that more definitely seem to hold up the advance of our troops from the beaches. Several attempts were made to communicate visually with units on the beach to determine where we could fire to aid them but none of these visual messages furnished us with enough information to open fire on dangerous nearby targets. It is recommended that men in the first wave, particularly signal corps personnel, be advised of the capabilities of the destroyer fire control systems and be instructed how to designate close-up targets that are within range of the 5 inch guns. If this were accomplished destroyers could be of more aid to men on the beaches even though shore fire control parties were knocked out or pinned down.
ORIGINAL: 2-(page)20
From: Commander Gunfire Support Craft Eleventh Amphibious Force.
At about H plus 6 hours on D day, we proceeded close inshore all along the OMAHA beach. We were under fire the whole way. Troops were unable to advance. I reported this to the Task Force Commander and requested permission to lay down rocket barrage. The request was refused because of the possibility of killing our own troops. I then proceeded to the force flagship to report in person to the Task Force Commander, Major-Generals HEUBNER and GEROW were aboard. After reviewing the conditions observed, it was again decided not to use the rockets for fear of endangering own troops who may have filtered through.
page 18
From: USS HERNDON (DD).
At approximately 1310 the Shore Fire Control Party called for a large left spot. MPI was then adjusted by several small spots and rapid fire commenced at an initial rate of 12 round per minute. The Shore Fire Control Party kept requesting an increasing rate of fire until finally we were firing four gun salvos at five second intervals. Spots were applied as called for without checking fire. After the initial spot all deflection spots were to the right at the rate of a 100 yard right spot about every minute as the Army advanced normal to our line of fire. Five second salvos were maintained until ammunition supply failed. Lower hoists will not supply ammunition at that rate. Fire was slowed to ten and fifteen second salvos. At this time it was explained to the Shore Fire Control Party that rate of fire was very high and ammunition was being used up. They replied that results were excellent, that the enemy was on the run, and requested that high rate of fire be continued.
ORIGINAL: Joe D.
Outside of the studio heads, no one knows how much money was lost, and no studio would advertise that kind of wasteful incompetence to the public.
ORIGINAL: GoodGuy
ORIGINAL: Joe D.
According to a History Channel special that featured newly discovered aerial maps of the beach head, Gen. Bradley was at the point of withdrawing the Omaha landing forces, but then used his last "ace": the DDs.
The HC said the DDs moved-in at point-blank range and obliterated German positons; the show presented aerial photos of the DDs in action to back-up their claim.
Joe, I can imagine that it's tempting to believe such claims. What you have to know (or keep in mind), though, is that the quality of HC features went downhill many many moons ago ...
ORIGINAL: GoodGuy
Throughout D-Day, there were occasions where Allied capital ships (eg. cruisers) reported that they had silenced particular German coastal batteries or bunkers, only to see them open fire again after a while (as they had waited for the cruisers to target other German positions), and occasions where "knocked out" guns became active again a few hours later, after the German crews had managed to remove rubble that was blocking the bunkers' embrasures.
With these positions, the German order/decision to retreat or the US troops on the ground were the only tools that could eject them.
[/center]ORIGINAL: GoodGuy
ORIGINAL: Joe D.
Outside of the studio heads, no one knows how much money was lost, and no studio would advertise that kind of wasteful incompetence to the public.
Right. Then you might want to reveal your source for the claim that - with a big fat budget of $24.x million - there was no money left to hire A-actors. It's not History Channel, is it? [:D]
There are no sources revealing the production costs of "Midway", but since the director of Midway had "recycled" so many "Tora" scenes, it's safe to say its costs were even way lower than Tora's costs, I'd say, as Midway was considered to be a profitable project at the box office (gross: ~$24 million, iirc), unlike Tora.
[/center]ORIGINAL: Joe D.
No argument there, but this particular HC series was several years ago; it used then recently discovered aerial photos to cover a range of operations from D-Day to the Pacific, and it was much better than most HC endeavours, i.e., "Patton 360," which were often "uneven".
ORIGINAL: Joe D.
In any event, the DDs were given no role in TLD.
ORIGINAL: COMINCH P-006
Amphibious Operations
Northern France
Western Task Force
June 1944
Chapter I, page 5:
The Landing Attack Plan was as follows: The 16th RCT attacked on the left on Beaches FOX GREEN and EASY RED with two battalions in assault and one following. The 116th RCT attacked on the right with two battalions in assault and one following, on Beaches EASY GREEN, DOG RED, DOG WHITE, and DOG GREEN. One assault battalion of the 116th RCT landed three companies abreast on Beaches EASY GREEN, DOG RED and DOG WHITE; the other landed three companies in column on Beach DOG GREEN, Nine of the twelve companies of the 2d and 5th Ranger Battalions landed on Beach DOG GREEN while the remaining three Ranger companies landed on the POINTS DU HOE in Sector CHARLIE to capture an enemy battery located there which threatened the Transport Area. The 18th RCT landed immediately after the 16th RCT on the same beaches. The Rifle Companies of the 115th embarked in LCI(L)s were to land on call on the same beaches as the 116th unless otherwise directed. The Landing was preceded by a forty minute naval bombardment at previously designated targets. A bombing attack was scheduled for delivery between H-30 minutes and H hour. This, however, failed to materialize. In addition to the bombardment by naval gunfire from supporting ships and craft, tanks embarked in LCT(A)s fired on targets of opportunity during the last 3000 yards of their approach to the beach and 105 mm SP artillery embarked in LCTs likewise fired during their passage through the boat lanes. LCT(R)s and LCS(S)s were scheduled to deliver a full discharge of rockets immediately prior to the "touchdown" of the infantry. The fire of the gunfire support craft and of the destroyers close inshore where they could observe the actual landing was to continue until such time as the advancing troops were actually endangered by it instead of being lifted at a pre-arranged clock time.
ORIGINAL: Joe D.
Then consider that the American actors in TTT were not leading men. In fact, some were former film stars who had already stepped-down to do TV; it would be like hiring David Hasselhoff to play Admiral Kimmel [;)]
ORIGINAL: Joe D.
Midway may have been a more profitable, movie but it wasn't more accurate; prior to the successfully Allied SBD attack, Allied recon photos from B-17s showed the only planes on the IJN CVs were Zero's flying Cap: this was later confirmed by the IJN flight logs presented in Shattered Sword.
As for production costs, read between the lines of trivia at IMDb: to hire and then fire Japan's top director, Akira Kurosawa, w/only one minute of film to show for it must have been a financial disaster, one that the studio heads would not want their stockholders to know much about.
Then consider that the American actors in TTT were not leading men. In fact, some were former film stars who had already stepped-down to do TV; it would be like hiring David Hasselhoff to play Admiral Kimmel [;)]
ORIGINAL: GoodGuy
... Afaik, the attacks were not coordinated, probably due to comm failure. Since the bombers did not show up at the same time, the torpedo planes were shot to pieces by the zeros. What's the book's take on that?
ORIGINAL: GoodGuy
... But that doesn't prove your assumption that actor salaries had to be cut while the shooting was already in progress.
Also, you don't even know whether they actually planned to get B-actors or not. The budget allowed for hiring A-actors, as usually only 15% of the budget was spent on actor fees, at the time. It rather looks like they didn't get any.
[/center]ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish
ORIGINAL: Joe D.
Then consider that the American actors in TTT were not leading men. In fact, some were former film stars who had already stepped-down to do TV; it would be like hiring David Hasselhoff to play Admiral Kimmel [;)]
Joe,
Equating actor David Hasselhoff with Martin Balsam is an absurd comparison. What's next, comparing Jason Robards with Pee Wee Herman?
The reason Paul Newman and Robert Redford types were not cast for this movie was more for artistic reasons (ie: the Director and Producers vision) than budgetary reasons (ie: the Producers wallet).
While some did TV, American actors such as Robards, Balsam, Whitmore were all highly regarded both for for stage and film work ...
[/center]ORIGINAL: Joe D.
But why wouldn't they, considering all the A-list actors that were originally signed-on by the two producers of the highly successful TLD and who were also involved w/TTT?
I think the studio "planned" to get character actors by default after the budget was bled white; that was the "assumption" of the documentary re the filming of TTT, and it makes sense to me.
