War Plan Orange Admirals Edition

[kirk23_MatrixForum]

In the future I'm going to be doing art work for the age of sail Napoleonic style as this 19 th century Frigate show's there you have a broadside across your bows Tankerace[;)]

[kirk23_MatrixForum]

ORIGINAL: hellfirejet

I have decided since, there is very little chance of War Plan Orange,being upgraded or patched in the near or even distant future,that I have been left with no alternative, but to MATE WAR PLAN ORANGE WITH WAR IN THE PACIFIC ADMIRALS EDITION,since I own both games and WITP AE has a far better editor and graphics and AI.[:D]

I started by making a copy of WAR IN THE PACIFIC AE, and I then renamed it WAR PLAN ORANGE ADMIRALS EDITION,I then deleted all the ship and aircraft art from the WITP AE copy,and input the Ship and aircraft art from WAR PLAN ORANGE,I now have all the old ships and aircraft in the WITP AE program,with it's much improved surroundings,I tested the game and it works great,plus I now have the new editor to work with,so my new major task is changing all devices etc in the AE EDITOR,with 1920s equpiment,big task but I will make it work.[8D]

Tankerace this is my original post for this thread,on how I'm doing this I'm trying to upgrade WAR PLAN ORANGE because it is obvious Matrix is not[:@]

Tankerace lets not get carried away here,I'm on your side and here to help.[:)]

[kirk23_MatrixForum]

ORIGINAL: Aces8

This would be a huge undertaking Graham maybe you could do the stock 1922 scenario first and take it from there and add varients later. Doing that scenario first could get some people excited about the project and get the ball rolling. It would be cool if Tankerace could share some of those oob's that he had for the 1.3 patch or at least the sources for them maybe we could see some of the sampans floating around. [8D]

As requested 1 Sampan[;)]

[kirk23_MatrixForum]

For anyone interested in this era,and I know you all are, or you would not be here,this is one of the book's I use for information.[;)]

[kirk23_MatrixForum]

Here is another Conways book I use All the worlds fighting ships 1860-1905 but it's now rare and hard to get hold off[;)]

[pmn25]

hellfirejet,

I think what tankerace is talking about when he says " make a how to guide" is exactly that. Now I think your idea is great because I think this game probably will never be worked on again, but if you were to release this mod for WITPAE then anyone that has WITPAE, now would have WPO for free. Maybe to prevent this you and Tankerace could work out some deal were you would give him the finalized mod, he then could have it encrypted to were you must enter your WPO serial number to install. I mean that is the only thing I can think of, and if you think about it ya the art work may be yours but the game engine is theirs, and you cant have a game with just art work. In fact when Tankerace was active with his 1.3 patch he stated that the artwork was what was holding it up if you read the posts. Maybe you should ask him if you could have a list of all the things he was planning to include in 1.3 and offer your own ideas, with the art work done it might be a step in the right direction.

[kirk23_MatrixForum]

Hi pmn25,
First off may I say that none,I repeat none off WAR PLAN ORANGE is used in this mod,everything comes from WITP AE programming and AI game wise it is based in world war 2 surroundings,what I'm doing is creating a scenario of the Pre-Dreadnought/Dreadnought era,and inputting it into the WITP AE system, as it stands it will work in a world war 2 enviroment,not what I want,but that is where the best editor comes from ADMIRAL EDITION.

In a perfect world the editor that is used in WITP AE,could be incorpoated into the WAR PLAN ORANGE programme,sorry but I'm not a computer programmer,I have not got a scooby on how that could be done,maybe if Matrix would get of there fat arses,and stop pushing all these world war 2 games so much,I mean there is only so much you can take,The gaming world is crying out for a ww1 Version of WITP,War Plan Orange is in the wrong time period,it is based in the death throws of the Dreadnought,It should be based Pre WW1,when the Dreadnought was the ruler of the worlds oceans.

Matrix,Tankerace who ever,needs to support this game much better,I mean it is dying if not dead already,if it were not for us gamers trying to breath new life into it.

I'll say again WITP AE gamers are not getting WPO for free,because none of the game comes from WPO.ALL THAT IS HAPPENING HERE IS I'M ADDING PRE-DREADNOUGHTS/DREADNOUGHT ETC,INTO THE ADMIRALS EDITION EDITOR[&:]

Matrix or Tankerace do not have jurisdiction over the Dreadnought era[:@][:@][:@]

Lets face it there is nothing to stop me putting the huge US CARRIER NIMITZ back in time and using her in the WPO Game and having Admiral Horatio Nelson as her captain[:o]

For that matter going to the extreme I could have fleets of Klingon birds of prey in the game as well,if I so desired that is why we have editors.so that we can use our own immagination to create things[8D]

I know what I will do,I will make fleets off Jerry Andersons STINGRAY as submarines how's about that[:D]

[kirk23_MatrixForum]

Here she is a new AMERICIAN class off sub[:D]

[kirk23_MatrixForum]

Hey we have got this all back to front,I have actually down graded WITP AE, by replacing all the world war 2 technology,with Pre-Dreadnoughts and WW1 weapons systems,the reason I have done this is I don't like all the Aircraft Carriers and planes,so I was not playing Admirals Edition,but WITP AE is a far more advanced system,so I have put Dreadnoughts in place of Carriers.[8D]

[Connfire]

If you would like help I will assist in any way I can, but WPO is still a product that I developed and receive money for and I would appreciate that this mod be listed simply as a how to guide, or include only scenario files so that original WPO files will still be required by the end user.

OK Tankerace, I'll be the one to ask for help. We're all familiar with what you intended for the new patch and the "Twilight of the Gods" expansion concept. You have some die-hard fans of WPO, Matrix consumers, who really want to see the game progress to today's state of the art, just like AE did for WITP. This includes Hellfirejet, who appears to have the time, motivation and skill to do just that. On the other hand, being in the business to sell games, Matrix is protective of it's copyright.

How do we resolve this impasse?

For what its worth, although it looks like a good, solid game, I do not own WITP or AE. Like Hellfirejet, I like to play with big ships rather than airplanes. If a WPO-like mod were to come that required WITP-AE to play it, I'd buy both in a heartbeat. Is there any chance somone can level with us and tell us if there is still room for fans of this genre at Matrix?

[hueglin]

I agree with Connfire. Let's try and find an amicable way to get what everyone on this forum would like - a pre-drednought/drednought game that's as moddable and as expandable as WTIP AE. I know I have starting switching my mod work over from WPO to AE, because AE offers so much more capability (except for map editing, but that's another story).

In fairness to Tankerace, Graham's initial post did sound like he was directly transferring the WPO data to AE. In fairness to Graham, if Matrix and/or Tankerace feel that there would be that much revenue lost to a WPO conversion to AE by Graham, then wouldn't that be all the more reason for them to actually do the work themselves and create a WPO AE to release for sale.

In closing, I hope that compromise can be achieved, and that this issue does not create a rift in our already fairly small community of dreadnought lovers.

Dave

[Connfire]

...if Matrix and/or Tankerace feel that there would be that much revenue lost to a WPO conversion to AE by Graham, then wouldn't that be all the more reason for them to actually do the work themselves and create a WPO AE to release for sale.?

Very well said. I sincerely hope that Tankerace and/or Matrix sees fit to reply to that question, as well as others that have been asked today. Hopefully an understanding acceptable to all can be reached.

[pmn25]

hellfirejet

So your saying you are making a pre WWI game? If so that would be great. As for matrix ressurecting WPO I wouldnt cross my fingers.

[kirk23_MatrixForum]

ORIGINAL: pmn25

hellfirejet

So your saying you are making a pre WWI game? If so that would be great. As for matrix ressurecting WPO I wouldnt cross my fingers.

I intend to make a game covering the entire Pre-Dreadnought/Dreadnought era from 1880-1932 Max,every surface ship class,and submarine built by every Nation,will be included in the database.I don't want Aircraft Carriers with hundreds of planes,bombing and Torpedoing the ***** out off everything,I want big ships shelling each other in surface combat action,is that to much to ask,and I will state again nothing is now being used from WAR PLAN ORANGE,I have dropped that name from my mod.It is now called DREADNOUGHTS AT WAR 1880-1932.

Lets face it whats the point of bothering about WAR PLAN ORANGE when even the designer can't be bothered to complete the work he started,before moving on to some other project,leaving everyone who is interested in the Dreadnought era high and dry without a paddle.[:@]

As for the accuracy of the device information I will be using for this mod,for example British 12" Naval Guns,if there are 3 version's off the same size of weapon,but with different calibers,I will be simplifing it to which gun has the longest range & damage effect caused,and using this as standard 12" Gun.There is far too much to do without bogging myself down with needless duplication,I know it's not as historically acurate,but I'm only interested in what size of weapon the individual ships were armed with,and which one was the best for range,accuracy and effect.

I will be using the ADMIRALS EDITION EDITOR,simply because that is the best one available for the purpose of the mod scenario,I don't want to be selfish in anyway,but I will be doing this to make a game that I want to play,as for the art work,I will be doing all that by myself,and that will be freely available to anyone who wants it.[;)]

So far I own 12 Matrix games in just over a year,ranging from Napoleonic - WW2,and I'm not 100% happy with any of them.[:(]

[kirk23_MatrixForum]

Sample device page showing USA 16" Naval gun settings[;)]

[Tankerace]

Agreed, I do not own the rights to the dreadnought era, and feel free if you wish to make your own Dreadnought mod for AE. That's all fine and dandy.



But,

I have decided since, there is very little chance of War Plan Orange,being upgraded or patched in the near or even distant future,that I have been left with no alternative, but to MATE WAR PLAN ORANGE WITH WAR IN THE PACIFIC ADMIRALS EDITION,since I own both games and WITP AE has a far better editor and graphics and AI.

Hey guys this won't happen over night,it will take time but I will make it happen,I will be transfering as much as possible to the ADMIRALS EDITION EDITOR,to get the WAR PLAN ORANGE database working smooth in it's new home,just like the WAR IN THE PACIFIC original was given a face lift,well so will War Plan Orange

The two programs can become one,the ship and aircraft art work works the same way in both versions,so my plan is to index the device database so everything is better orginised,I also plan to add the German airforce complete with Zeppelins

think WAR PLAN ORANGE deserves nothing less than a major face lift and overhaul,what do you guys think yes /no?

Do not indicate you are making a new game, in fact you've blatantly stated you are using my work as a springboard for your own project. I don't own the rights to the dreadnought era, but I do own the rights to War Plan Orange, which at the begining of this thread you said you were using. If you want to make your own dreadnought game do so, but use your own code, your own research, your own scenarios, etc. Don't use mine. That's my argument. Only in response to my post have you talked about "A new game," previous it was, and as quoted above, "mating WPO with WitPAE." Something I politely asked you not to do, or only do as a guide for other WPO owners, not just AE owners, to do.



As to supporting the game, my expansion idea was nixed by Matrix. I have not had time to update the game at all, and by update actually means "including new free stuff." I'm all for players making mod and free updates -- hell, that's how I got started. But I didn't take Matrix's WitP scenario and make them free downloads for UV owners, and I made sure that WPO could not play WitP scenarios. All I did was ask you to respect that right.



Would I like to do an update to WPO? Absolutely. But I don't have the time, Matrix has nixed my expansion idea, and the sad world of capitalism means I have to devote my energies to what gives me a paycheck -- which is not a free ware update to WPO.



That's not to say you won't see an AE update to WPO, but just not soon.



As to this "mod" or "game", whatever you want to call it, feel free to develop you own, but at the beginning of this thread you stated you were making a mod to AE using the game I created. The two are not one in the same.



And as to not be bothered to complete my work, I did exactly what I set out to do, create a wargame simulating a post WWI game set in the 1920s. The 1930s was something I wanted to do, nothing I ever promised to do. WPO only covers 1922-1930 in the title, and that's exactly what it does.

ORIGINAL: Connfire

...if Matrix and/or Tankerace feel that there would be that much revenue lost to a WPO conversion to AE by Graham, then wouldn't that be all the more reason for them to actually do the work themselves and create a WPO AE to release for sale.?

Very well said. I sincerely hope that Tankerace and/or Matrix sees fit to reply to that question, as well as others that have been asked today. Hopefully an understanding acceptable to all can be reached.

As to this question, for me anyway it isn't about the revenue. How would you feel if someone took something that you worked on for 15 months from scratch, that you happily got published and was truly a pride of acheivement and then just used it for themselves, and insinuated they would do so in a way that violated your copyrights on it and used your material without even bothering to ask first. That's what I'm protective of.

No matter how much revenue is lost, that is immaterial. The fact is that WPO is a copyrighted game and to make a mod that would in effect allow its core files to be used without ownership of the game is illegal, plain and simple. That is my argument.

I hardcore supported WPO its first three years of existence, but the game turned 4 last month. How much longer should I actively devote all of my excess time to the game after it has hit the point where I no longer make a lot of money off of it? I work a regular job, in six months I have a wife, and I'm starting a doctoral degree. I only have so much time. Nevertheless, WPO is my game, the fruits of my labor, and I will protect it as such.

Now, if Graham wants to contact Matrix about doing a licensed conversion under my direction, then I'm all for it. But that's not what I've seen proposed here today.

[kirk23_MatrixForum]

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

Agreed, I do not own the rights to the dreadnought era, and feel free if you wish to make your own Dreadnought mod for AE. That's all fine and dandy.



But,

I have decided since, there is very little chance of War Plan Orange,being upgraded or patched in the near or even distant future,that I have been left with no alternative, but to MATE WAR PLAN ORANGE WITH WAR IN THE PACIFIC ADMIRALS EDITION,since I own both games and WITP AE has a far better editor and graphics and AI.

Hey guys this won't happen over night,it will take time but I will make it happen,I will be transfering as much as possible to the ADMIRALS EDITION EDITOR,to get the WAR PLAN ORANGE database working smooth in it's new home,just like the WAR IN THE PACIFIC original was given a face lift,well so will War Plan Orange

The two programs can become one,the ship and aircraft art work works the same way in both versions,so my plan is to index the device database so everything is better orginised,I also plan to add the German airforce complete with Zeppelins

think WAR PLAN ORANGE deserves nothing less than a major face lift and overhaul,what do you guys think yes /no?

Do not indicate you are making a new game, in fact you've blatantly stated you are using my work as a springboard for your own project. I don't own the rights to the dreadnought era, but I do own the rights to War Plan Orange, which at the begining of this thread you said you were using. If you want to make your own dreadnought game do so, but use your own code, your own research, your own scenarios, etc. Don't use mine. That's my argument. Only in response to my post have you talked about "A new game," previous it was, and as quoted above, "mating WPO with WitPAE." Something I politely asked you not to do, or only do as a guide for other WPO owners, not just AE owners, to do.



As to supporting the game, my expansion idea was nixed by Matrix. I have not had time to update the game at all, and by update actually means "including new free stuff." I'm all for players making mod and free updates -- hell, that's how I got started. But I didn't take Matrix's WitP scenario and make them free downloads for UV owners, and I made sure that WPO could not play WitP scenarios. All I did was ask you to respect that right.



Would I like to do an update to WPO? Absolutely. But I don't have the time, Matrix has nixed my expansion idea, and the sad world of capitalism means I have to devote my energies to what gives me a paycheck -- which is not a free ware update to WPO.



That's not to say you won't see an AE update to WPO, but just not soon.



As to this "mod" or "game", whatever you want to call it, feel free to develop you own, but at the beginning of this thread you stated you were making a mod to AE using the game I created. The two are not one in the same.



And as to not be bothered to complete my work, I did exactly what I set out to do, create a wargame simulating a post WWI game set in the 1920s. The 1930s was something I wanted to do, nothing I ever promised to do. WPO only covers 1922-1930 in the title, and that's exactly what it does.

ORIGINAL: Connfire

...if Matrix and/or Tankerace feel that there would be that much revenue lost to a WPO conversion to AE by Graham, then wouldn't that be all the more reason for them to actually do the work themselves and create a WPO AE to release for sale.?

Very well said. I sincerely hope that Tankerace and/or Matrix sees fit to reply to that question, as well as others that have been asked today. Hopefully an understanding acceptable to all can be reached.

As to this question, for me anyway it isn't about the revenue. How would you feel if someone took something that you worked on for 15 months from scratch, that you happily got published and was truly a pride of acheivement and then just used it for themselves, and insinuated they would do so in a way that violated your copyrights on it and used your material without even bothering to ask first. That's what I'm protective of.

No matter how much revenue is lost, that is immaterial. The fact is that WPO is a copyrighted game and to make a mod that would in effect allow its core files to be used without ownership of the game is illegal, plain and simple. That is my argument.

I hardcore supported WPO its first three years of existence, but the game turned 4 last month. How much longer should I actively devote all of my excess time to the game after it has hit the point where I no longer make a lot of money off of it? I work a regular job, in six months I have a wife, and I'm starting a doctoral degree. I only have so much time. Nevertheless, WPO is my game, the fruits of my labor, and I will protect it as such.

Now, if Graham wants to contact Matrix about doing a licensed conversion under my direction, then I'm all for it. But that's not what I've seen proposed here today.

Tankerace,I'm sorry this is getting out of hand,we all want the same thing really,each and every player of War Plan Orange,we have all seen WITP getting a major face lift and want the same for War Plan Orange.

Can you or Matrix please see if it's possible to do an AE Editor for War Plan Orange,then all this debate would be mute,I just want to create a Pre-Dreadnought /Dreadnought scenario based prior to WW1.[&o][&o]

I'm more than happy to create whatever new art work is needed,just like I have done already for the German,Italian navys.[:)]

[Connfire]

Hey Graham,

You might want to consider submitting a proposal to this link here: http://www.matrixgames.com/corporate/submitting.asp

I know this "generation" of WPO gamers didn't exactly get off on the right foot we would have hoped for with Tankerace, and that is regretable. But hopefully once things cool down he'll get the message that there are still people who love what he created, and hopefully he'll stop by here again under better circumstances.

But even with that, it wasn't 100% negative. He did say -

Now, if Graham wants to contact Matrix about doing a licensed conversion under my direction, then I'm all for it.

and

I'm all for players making mod and free updates -- hell, that's how I got started

Heck, this may be a new opportunity for you to use your proven talents, break into the business, and give new life into the WPO concept. Just don't forget us little guys if you become famous! [:)]

[Tankerace]

First off I don't think we have gotten off on the wrong foot. If you read my posts I didn't say I don't want any mods, new scenarios, what have you. I just said I don't want a free ware WPO admirals edition, which was the current topic of this thread. I even went so far as to say go ahead if you do it as a guide where other WPO players can do the same (never mind that AE will have NONE, repeat, NONE of the 10 months of code work Mike put in to WPO which are necessary), only don't release core files for free. Not only am I justified as an author on that point, but also legal standing. I want to support the game, but I'm not giving up my work while it's still in copyright.
 
Now, so that my position is fully clear, here is the PM I sent to Graham today after his response to my asking if he wanted to do a licensed WPO to AE conversion. Rather than saying yes, he now idicates he only wants to do a new, mega scenario but wants the AE editor to do it. The fact is the AE editor won't work with WPO because the two programs are different and look for different variables, and significant coding work would need to happen. Remember, AE and WitP are not the same and are massively different, and WPO is based off of WitP. My new question:
 

 
 
The fact is an AE editor won't work in WPO, as the two games are now very different, they started off the same sure, but now use very different scenario type files with different information, just as the program files themselves are very different, simply copying the editor file won't work as the .exe would need to be changed.
 
What you are asking would, as I stated earlier, require an Admiral's Edition update to WPO, which would need the approval of myself, Matrix, 2by3Games, and the AE team. If you would like to work on such a project that is fine, and I'll get in touch with people and see if we can make it happen, but it would be no easy undertaking but I would provide whatever support I can and assist you in any way possible.
 
The thing is, you are talking about mating one team's work with another team's work, and both parties have an interest in that.
 
Rather than ask for an AE update in the PM, your new idea seems to be doing another scenario -- which is absolutely fine, WPO is coded for just that. But if you want the AE changes -- which according to your thread you wanted to do -- you'll have to work under the supervision of Matrix to create a paid expansion that protects both peoples interests.
 
Now, is that what you are wanting to do, or now are you simply wanting to create a new dreadnought scenario for WPO? (if it is for AE, it is now blocked to prevent any pre 1936 scenario to protect WPO files from being used, not to mention none of the code would work anyway -- it took Mike wood about 10 months of heavy coding to get WPO where it was from WitP, code that AE does NOT have and makes it really implausible for a dreadnought scenario).

 
I never wanted to stop creating new stuff for WPO, but the fact is both I and the AE team have a vested interest in anything that would merge the two games, and if you took one game to improve the other both parties need to be compensated. It isn't because we're money grubbers (I don't make a lot on WPO anymore), but it's because that's what the law says.
 
If Graham wants to do a licensed conversion then great, I'll start emailing people. But the fact is that's not what I'm thinking he wants, based on his last pms. He wants his own scenario which, while he could put in said conversion, I would mandate that except for typos and bugs fixed the core of WPO (maybe not ship graphics) would stay the same -- which already conflicts with his device idea (though he could do his own scenario however he wanted).

[hueglin]

Tankerace,

I want to commend you on your reasoned and calm response to this whole situation. I'm sorry if my comment sounded disrespectful toward your copyright and intellectual property.

You mention the following in one of your responses:
-- it took Mike wood about 10 months of heavy coding to get WPO where it was from WitP, code that AE does NOT have and makes it really implausible for a dreadnought scenario).

I assume you are referring to code changes that affected the surface combat model. I have been reading discussions on the WITP AE forum about trying to improve the surface combat model, which even WITP players seem to feel is not accurate enough. You probably are not the guy that has the answer to this question but, if the surface model in WITP AE is so out of wack, why did they not have Mike Wood make the same changes to the WITP AE code that he made to the WPO code?

Thanks again for supplyingus with a great game.

Dave