Ahmadinejad Demands Compensation for WWII Invasion

[planner 3]

If my olde memory banks haven't failed the Iranians were very cozy with the Germans and Italians (declaring neutrality, yeah sure) prior to the fall of France, Poland, etc.

Speaking of a "bitter little man" remember one with a funny mustache in the 1930's......see what he started. He (prez iran) should be called Pinochio, the Ayotolla's little puppet.

[hgilmer3]

ORIGINAL: JW

My wife and daughter are "card carrying" Native Americans. We want reparations from all you Euros for the invasion of North America. We're already getting some from the US. But you Euros started it.

I'd have to pay reparations to myself since I have European blood in me and native american blood. I don't carry a card, because I have never had a reason to do so, but it is there just the same. I suppose if they were to pay reparations, I'd get screwed again! [:D]

[Cap Mandrake]

ORIGINAL: JW

Neanderthals would be first in line.

Yes, that goes without saying, but who would step forward as the claimant? There has to be a plaintiff with standing in the case.


Pao Gasal maybe?

[GoodGuy]

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

Was the rationale for the WW II "invasion" to keep Persian oil out of the hands of the Africa Corps?

No. The British Middle East Command didn't even move those reserves which were "parked" (held back to cater for possible arabian-jewish conflicts) in Palestine to the North African front. They weren't sure whether Cairo was out of reach or not, after Rommels thrust to El Alamein (in fact Cairo HQ started to burn files and documents already), but I am sure that they at least felt that the Germans couldn't reach Baghdad from the West, let alone Teheran.
Still, the Allies (Brits, some Indian Brigades + Soviets) invaded Iran, simply to grab the oil and, as mentioned in this thread, to secure a supply line across the Caspian Sea (and making use of the Trans-Iranian railroad).
Ironically, in 1942, Hitler indeed ordered to conduct a thrust to the Caucasus, but just in order to secure the Russian oil fields, as even Hitler (unlike some SS officers) regarded the Iranian fields as unreachable.
The Germans then advanced even into the wide Kalmücken-Steppe (dunno the English word), and - starting from Rostov at the Don - also southwards through the Caucasus.

The southern thrust did halt way past Stavropol I think, which is pretty much half of the distance from Rostov at the Don to the Iranian border.
The last obstacle some 130 km north of the border to Iran, though, is a rough mountain range forming the Northern border of Georgia, nowadays. I don't think it was tank friendly . The only narrow point where you could ship around this range was some plain at the Caspian Sea, at the Eastern tip of the range.
Besides that, there was no real front in the Steppe, and I am not sure if there really was a fixed/stable front in the Caucasus. The Germans penetrated the area with light/medium armor, basically with fast troops.

-----
Technically, and according to international law, I guess, the invasion of a neutral country (Iran) was uncalled for and unauthorized. Iran rose to a regional power, due to the oil resources that had been discovered (1930s? 20s?). Rezah Schah actually had quite some sympathy for the Germans and their cause, and the Abadan refinery had an output of 8 million tons in 1940. As the Schah would not give in to Allied pressure/demands, after pro-german public protests and after he denied to let the Allies use the Trans-Iranian railroad for supply deliveries to Russia, they decided to sack him and invade in August 1941.

I did some research last year, and figured that the German war machine used to have a (motor gasoline) consumption between 70,000 (early 1945) and 320,000 tons (peak in June 1941) per month, so with a theoretical average of 666,666 tons per month (= 8 mill/year) being refined in Abadan, the possession of this massive output was going to be decisive for the "owner" and for the outcome of the war. After the Russians had to withdraw from their Caucasian oil fields (after destroying the installations), the Iranian fields helped a whole lot to keep up their mobility, I guess. The main reason for the Russians to invade (at that point) was to secure supply lines for (early British) "lend and lease", though.

Even though Ahmadenidschad (sp?) is a psycho, the Allies (which surely includes Russia) never paid any compensation, not for the massive amounts of oil, nor for any resources squeezed out of Iran. Germany had to pay reparations at least until 1953 (East Germany AND West Germany), and other Axis powers - after the Paris treaty in 1947 - paid reparations as well. German assets abroad (some say 20 Billion Reichsmarks) were kept and not deducted when the Allies determined the reparation figures.

Now, if some rational and reputable guy from Iran would have emitted such a claim, I could imagine that I would be tempted to say that he's got a point.
From his POV, it'd be like invading Great Britain, pumping their oil for a few years (to supply "his" war), and then leave and drop a non-chalant "bye", while squeezing some more oil + FULL benefits for another 6 years outta their oil fields. [:D]

After the war, since the country's economy was down, Iran received some support as part of the US Marshall plan.
The refinery/oil production remained in British hands, though, and - when Britain refused to give at least half (50%) of the net earnings to Iran - the Schah's son Mohammed Reza nationalized the oil industry (1951, IIRC).

Well, since it's him who claims stuff, I'd rather say "the past is the past".

[06 Maestro]

ORIGINAL: planner 3

If my olde memory banks haven't failed the Iranians were very cozy with the Germans and Italians (declaring neutrality, yeah sure) prior to the fall of France, Poland, etc.

The Shah (Pahlavi senior) was clearly pro Axis. As the Allies were fighting a war that they actually wanted to win; there was no point in allowing Iran the luxury of joining the conflict at the most inopportune time for the Allies. A secure southern supply route for Russia was needed.

Hmm, I wonder if removing the Axis minded leader is at the heart of this matter-it would not surprise me.

Shah junior, Reza Pahlavi, was a good buddy to the west for 38 years. Then the do gooders struck. How many have died because the west demanded he step down? This action by the west ranks in the top 5 stupid decisions of the last century.

[jwilkerson]

ORIGINAL: JW

My wife and daughter are "card carrying" Native Americans. We want reparations from all you Euros for the invasion of North America. We're already getting some from the US. But you Euros started it.

Yeah but you "First Americans" invaded American before we did - and wiped out all the poor ole Woolly Mammoth's and lots of Caribou, the early horses, etc. [:D] so the Animal Protection Society will be suing you guys for sure!!!

Hecque if EVERYBODY just goes back where we came from - everything would be fine [:D][:D][:D]

[SLAAKMAN]

Even though Ahmadenidschad (sp?) is a psycho, the Allies (which surely includes Russia) never paid any compensation, not for the massive amounts of oil, and not for any resources squeezed out of Iran, either. Germany had to pay reparations at least until 1953 (East Germany AND West Germany), and other Axis powers - after the Paris treaty in 1947 - paid reparations as well. German assets abroad (some say 20 Billion Reichsmarks) were kept and not deducted when the Allies determined the reparation figures.

Now, if some rational and reputable guy from Iran would have emitted such a claim, I could imagine that I would be tempted to say that he's got a point.
After the war, since the country's economy was down, Iran received support as part of the US Marshall plan.
The refinery/oil production remained in British hands, though, and - when Britain refused to give at least half (50%) of the net earnings to Iran - the Schah's son Mohammed Reza nationalized the oil industry (1951, IIRC).

Actually if the books arent balanced and the debt is still owed then it might be a good idea to pay the Iranians for this. It certainly would ease tensions and we do need to find ways to procure better relations. Iran could also be a high volume trade partner. We should give them a chance.

[GoodGuy]

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

Hecque if EVERYBODY just goes back where we came from - everything would be fine [:D][:D][:D]

If the (illegal) Mexicans go first, you guys will be in trouble. [:D]

[GoodGuy]

ORIGINAL: SLAAKMAN

Actually if the books arent balanced and the debt is still owed then it might be a good idea to pay the Iranians for this. It certainly would ease tensions and we do need to find ways to procure better relations. Iran could also be a high volume trade partner. We should give them a chance.

I've thought about that too, after I read Joe's quote.
Thing is, if I'd be a British/Allied official, I wouldn't feel like paying monies to a dicatorship. Wait ... even though I'm German I don't feel like doing it. [:D]

ORIGINAL: JW

But you Euros started it.

I didn't start anything, k? [:)]

[GoodGuy]

ORIGINAL: 06 Maestro

Hmm, I wonder if removing the Axis minded leader is at the heart of this matter-it would not surprise me.

That's an interesting thought. I have not read enough about that matter, i wonder if there's some truth to it. Iranian oil deliveries (maybe through neutral Turkey) would have made a real difference. The German Luftwaffe was often grounded due to lack of aviation fuel (starting around 1942), and tank formations ran out of fuel for the first time in spring 1942, already. Besides the most imminent problem to field a sufficient amount of troops after 1942, this was Germanys second biggest handicap.
Then, removing a pro-german leader just would have been consistent, in their minds.

[Joram]

I think we should just tell him it never really happened. [:D]

[Dennistoun]

ORIGINAL: Joram

I think we should just tell him it never really happened. [:D]

Nah! I don't think he'd fall for that. He has the Dallas boxsets and he's watched them all...

[decaro]

ORIGINAL: GoodGuy

... Even though Ahmadenidschad (sp?) is a psycho, the Allies (which surely includes Russia) never paid any compensation, not for the massive amounts of oil, nor for any resources squeezed out of Iran. Germany had to pay reparations at least until 1953 (East Germany AND West Germany), and other Axis powers - after the Paris treaty in 1947 - paid reparations as well.

History is written by the winners, and apparently only the losers pay reparations [;)]

[Doggie]

... Even though Ahmadenidschad (sp?) is a psycho, the Allies (which surely includes Russia) never paid any compensation, not for the massive amounts of oil, nor for any resources squeezed out of Iran

Huh??? Say what???

The Americans and the British built Iran's entire infrasteructure for them. Every port, every refinery, every school and every hospital was built by evil western capitalists. Without British Petroleum, the Iranians would be living in mud huts and fighting sea gulls over dead fish. The evil capitalists have paid for every dime of Iranian oil, plus the costs of exploration, drilling, refining, storage, port facilities, and shipping.

Every sheckel of the billions Iran rakes in from it's oil industry has been handed to them while they sat on their dead asses and whined about it.[8|]

[Doggie]

Iran qnd Nazi Germany

Iran's axis with the Third Reich began during the prewar years, when it welcomed Nazi Gestapo agents and other operatives to Tehran, allowing them to use the city as a base for Middle East agitation against the British and the region's Jews.

Key among these German agents was Fritz Grobba, Berlin's envoy to the Middle East, who was often called "the German Lawrence," because he promised a Pan-Islamic state stretching from Casablanca to Tehran.

Relations between Berlin and Tehran were strong from the moment Hitler came to power in 1933. At that time, Reza Shah Pahlavi's nation was known as Persia. The shah became a stalwart admirer of Hitler, Nazism and the concept of the Aryan master race. He also sought the Reich's help in reducing British petro-political domination.

So intense was the shah's identification with the Third Reich that in 1935 he renamed his ancient country "Iran," which in Farsi means Aryan and refers to the Proto-Indo-European lineage that Nazi racial theorists and Persian ethnologists cherished.

[GoodGuy]

ORIGINAL: Doggie

Iran qnd Nazi Germany

This article is packed with factual errors.
The author is either a sloppy researcher and a bad journalist or he had a bad day.

1)The Mufti of Jerusalem did not raise three Waffen SS Muslim divisions (not one, in fact).
Around late 1942 Himmler was thrilled by the idea that muslim soldiers may be excellent soldiers, SS soldiers in particular, as their religion would make them fight without fear (11 virgins blehbleh u know the drill).
This did not materialize before 1943, though.

The unit that was formed in 1943 was then called "13. SS-Freiwilligen Gebirgs-Division Kroatien" (13th SS-Volunteer Mountain-Division Croatia), later renamed to 13. Waffen-Gebirgs-Division der SS "Handschar" (and later referred to as "croatian No. 1", as shortcut). It was called "Croatia" in order not to piss off the Croatian Allies, who had some concerns reg. a pure Muslim Division and a unit designation carrying the words "Muslim" or "Muselmanische Division". The Croatian Ustasha regime regarded the Muslims in Croatia as full citizens, though, and agreed to the creation of the unit, incorporating Bosnian and Croation muslims, some (not so reliable) sources say there were volunteers from Iran, not sure. Only half of the division were volunteers, though, and ~3000 of the 25,000 men were Croatian christians. Most of the NCOs and all COs were Germans or of German descent, the grunts were Bosnian muslims. Some of the unit's officers received higher commendations (ie. Knight's Cross).

In 1943, the Mufti went to Sarajevo and Mostar, to 1) talk the local clerics into supporting the Nazis, and 2) to give his blessing to the new unit. The Germans raised the unit, not the Mufti. When the Muslims "just" heard that the unit may have to fight Russians, mass desertions occured, before that they were ordered to fight Yugoslavian partisans exclusively.
The author makes it sound as if the unit had been raised around 1941, at least before the invasion of Iran.

2) The "Anglo-Iranian" Oil Co. may have delivered refined products (fuel) before the war (the author states there were deliveries to Austria and Czech), but they surely didn't deliver fuel after WW2 broke out. Here, the author makes it sound as if there had been deliveries until 1941.

Quite interestingly, what the author doesn't mention is that quite some support came from US companies who delivered either material or supplies to Germany not only until December 1941, but some delivered even all through the war. Sweden delivered ores until a point (late 1944?) where the Germans didn't scare them anymore.
US examples would be IBM (through a shady daughter company-deal) delivering typewriters and mechanical calculators - to enhance the German war machine's paperwork -, Ford produced trucks for the German "Blitzkrieg", and - although the American management of the German Ford branch had been removed by the Nazis, the profit (or at least vital parts) went to Ford America, at least until 1944. Roosevelt knew about these commercial ties afaik, but I can't remember whether he protested and tried to do anything about it or not.

There are more errors, but I'm too lazy to type em.

Huh??? Say what???

The Americans and the British built Iran's entire infrasteructure for them.

Actually, the Americans and GERMANS built the Trans-Iranian railway, a project influenced by the Russian Trans-Siberian railway project. The Brits built a road network, as it was needed for the refineries.

Every port, every refinery, every school and every hospital was built by evil western capitalists.

Sorry, but that's utter bs.
The Schah (senior) started the industrialization and railroad construction in the country, and he sought to keep the balance between Russian interests and Western (British) interests. Western powers/companies didn't build the "entire" infrastructure.
If countries then pay either for influence or for an adequate environment for the oil industry, then that's a simple deal, not a present.

Without British Petroleum, the Iranians would be living in mud huts and fighting sea gulls over dead fish.

Actually, they had the technology to pump the oil, but not to refine it, so they could have still sold the crude oil to other states, if the Brits would have closed the refinery.

The evil capitalists have paid for every dime of Iranian oil, plus the costs of exploration, drilling, refining, storage, port facilities, and shipping.

But you might want to add that the Brits obtained a raw material (crude oil) for a ridiculously low amount, they then refined it, and the net profit went into their pockets. The Brits later offered the Saudis a 50/50 deal, but kept denying the same deal to Iran even until 1951, which made Iran nationalize the oil industry the same year.
Look up "BEIC" (British East Indian Company), Imperial Tobacco (not the one that was founded 1996), and the UK company that handled natural rubber production and trade. The Brits had their hands in territories and projects all over the world. If you do some research, you'll figure that their involvement was usually not a good (=beneficial) thing for the local people (who owned the respective territories), as the Brits were usually exploiting ppl and country, sometimes even ruthlessly (eg. Africa).

Every sheckel

You're from Israel? [:D]
Don't trust the propaganda. [:)]

the billions Iran rakes in from it's oil industry has been handed to them while they sat on their dead asses and whined about it.[8|]

That wasn't the case, as I outlined above.

---

That doesn't mean I am pro-Iranian or anything, but facts are facts.
The Schah was rather a Nazi fan than anything else, but the invasion of Iran was against international laws, and even though it was a logical step commenced by the Allies, international habits are that aggressors have to pay compensations for damages or losses that occured, or are you suggesting that strong/winning parties can't be held responsible for their actions? [:D]

[Doggie]

Uh, yeah.[8|]

The point was that the persians and Arabs were on the side of the nazis. The fact that they sucked at it is beside the point.

As for British Petroleum, the Iranians and Arabs were lucky they got anything at all. It's the little red hen allegory - "who shall look for the oil?" "Not me," said the little red Muslims. "And who shall help me drill for the oil?" "Not me" said the little red Muslims. "And who shall help me spend all ther money?" "Me, me, me" said the Muslims.

The point you are missing is that without western aid, the entire muslim world would be picking corn kernels out of their own feces. We owe them nothing.