Detection Even if Under the Radar

[Hard Sarge]

I really don't follow your thought, you do not have a gap on the East, once you get to the coast, you going to be spotted by the HQ there, the raid still gets spotted once it is close to land, as it does in the West

the raid in the East is not going anywhere undetected once it gets close to land, which is fine

the same goes for the raid in the West, it shouldn't have a free range just because it slips by the end of the map (yes, when the map was made, maybe he should of made the edge end at the coast, then there is no complaint)

and as I think Harley is trying to say, the OC is not just a pixle point in the middle of a Ville or town placed on the map, there are going to be sites, people on the coast, each coast, and on the isles off map, and there are also going to be boats and other things out there, and to get around that, is going to be more then just a slight detour

now so, saying, I think that maybe the OC range is greater in BTR then it was in BoB

but part of the point I was trying to make, I like Nick's idea, but, he could do it, with Tactics and timing, instead of trying to game the map system (and to be fair to Nick, I don't think when he did it, he was thinking it was a gamey thing to do)

I have worked with Gary on 3 games (2 released, one in the works), and one of the big things we have done, is to try and make sure the limits of the map, are not used to game the system

[otisabuser2]

If you read what I wrote about the right flank raid and what you said happens, you will see we agree entirely on the spotting processes.

Rough timings. The outbound leg takes 25 minutes to target. It is spotted 5 minutes from target. RAF has therefore only 5 minutes to react - that's hardly time to launch remember, before they bomb. Then they are turned around and headed back away from the fighters towards home.

Consider then a straight path to Hoffmans from same base. Passes over all that flak and balloons at Dover. Gets spotted only 10 minutes into raid. Endures a 15 minute trek on the deck over Kent passing by bases with planes ( Gravesend and Hornchurch ) and those possibly with planes. Turns around after target and flies a further 15 mins path return path flying again past same places, flak and balloons.

Please tell me you can see the advantage in the dog-leg there ?

[Hard Sarge]

ORIGINAL: otisabuser2

If you read what I wrote about the right flank raid and what you said happens, you will see we agree entirely on the spotting processes.

Rough timings. The outbound leg takes 25 minutes to target. It is spotted 5 minutes from target. RAF has therefore only 5 minutes to react - that's hardly time to launch remember, before they bomb. Then they are turned around and headed back away from the fighters towards home.

Consider then a straight path to Hoffmans from same base. Passes over all that flak and balloons at Dover. Gets spotted only 10 minutes into raid. Endures a 15 minute trek on the deck over Kent passing by bases with planes ( Gravesend and Hornchurch ) and those possibly with planes. Turns around after target and flies a further 15 mins path return path flying again past same places, flak and balloons.

Please tell me you can see the advantage in the dog-leg there ?

yes, and I agree with that, but they are still going to be spotted by the OC before they cross the coast, the same in the West, if he was plotting a raid at 400 ft, to one of the targets right on the coast, in the West, it would work the same way as in the East, and he would have a much better chance of slipping in and slipping out on the West, then he will on the East

I mean, we added in the extra waypoints, so the player can try and plot around trouble

[otisabuser2]

So I know where we are. Am I now reading you right, in that you now beleive Nick's raid would have been possible and suceeded in the real battle, had he not been spotted by the Observer Corps at Penzance, Scillies, and the shipping in the Channel you mentioned ?

And that they could have routed the raid to the left, past the Scilly Isles, to avoid land detection totally ?

( Excluding all the other variables like patrols over the target, etc, which Nick was lucky enough not to encounter )

Sorry, but I find it hard to follow your posts sometimes.

[Hard Sarge]

could it of worked ? not sure, but I think it would of been much HARDer, to avoid the Scillies, would of taken a much wider detour, then you were saying, it would of added a lot of extra miles to the range, plus, flying at 400 feet or below, would of been HARD for the whole trip

and then taking in the shipping that would be out there, not counting any of the "other" forces patrols

so saying, I think the raid from Norway, had a better chance of working

if you remember, we wanted to add in the Airfield in the Scillies, and had to leave it out

hassle is, game world, vs real world, radar works better, OC works better, stations work better

in real life, the LW got to some targets, before, anybody knew what was going on (some of the radar sites were hit while tracking the targets, and were talking to the higher ups asking what these planes were going after, the next thing they knew, it was them !, also, some reports, were just forgotten about)

Perfect world, we get a bigger map, or a smaller map, but, I don't think that is going to happen

[otisabuser2]

I have not suggested anywhere on this thread that we change the map to include the Scilliy Isles. This would mean moving every location in the UK and Europe.

What I have suggested, is that the artificial cropping of the map in the west prevents unseen flank attacks. I have proposed a work-around that does not change the map at all.

I don't know why you keep going on about not changing the map ?

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

could it of worked ? not sure, but I think it would of been much HARDer, to avoid the Scillies, would of taken a much wider detour, then you were saying, it would of added a lot of extra miles to the range, plus, flying at 400 feet or below, would of been HARD for the whole trip

I said "it would still not add an impossible distance to my raid". So you think it would take a "much wider" than "not impossible" distance. How far is that ? Impossible or almost impossible ? [;)]

Another point to consider is aircraft spotting distances. On combats over Britain at what distance were the formations spotting one another ? There were unusual times when the Germans were in huge phalanx after phalanx, one stepped above the other and could be seen from considerable distances. I am thinking of more Squadron vs Squadron sized units.

I would argue that a Squadron sized unit would be invisible more than say, 5 miles away. Perhaps considerably less.

[Hard Sarge]

maybe a squadron, but he sent the whole KG (it looks like)

what your saying we should do, is open a explot, which I am not going to do

there are tactic's that could be used, that would do close to the same thing, with out making a explot out of it

[otisabuser2]

How is this left flank low-level raid any kind of exploit ?

This tactic can already be used on the right, from France/Belgium. It can also be used all the way across the North Sea from Norway.

It can also be used at numerous places in the BTR side. Most obviously by Med bombers to attack those targets around the Denmark area. Multiple other places this can be done in the Med Sea.

Once again, the only reason you can't fly around the tip of Cornwall, is because the map is cropped there ! Suprise is limited because you can only approach South Wales by flying across England to get there ( and over RAF bases in 1941 ).

The Germans were quite good at strategy, and were often keen to exploit flank attacks. In warfare this is not regarded as cheating, but good tactics.

[Hard Sarge]

you can not do it from the east or from Norway

you are not bypassing the front line and getting into the back areas undetected

any game where you can use the map edge to get past what should be there, is a explot

[otisabuser2]

Can you take this up with your alter ego then. The one that said :-

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

yes, and I agree with that, but they are still going to be spotted by the OC before they cross the coast, the same in the West, if he was plotting a raid at 400 ft, to one of the targets right on the coast, in the West, it would work the same way as in the East, and he would have a much better chance of slipping in and slipping out on the West, then he will on the East

I mean, we added in the extra waypoints, so the player can try and plot around trouble

I don't mind debating this with either of you, but not both at the same time. [;)]

Any further views from either of you on spotting ranges ?

regards Otis

[Cav Trooper]

I've read the discussion, but am wondering if possibly a detection code is added in at some point to simulate merchant marine, coastal command or even a destroyer patrol spotted it. As it looks now, and correct me if I am wrong, but it looks like from what I remember that the area you overflew was a major shipping approach to the western ports up through there. So, if that is "historical" then u-boats would be a threat to the area, so therefore, coastal command patrol might have seen them. We've got coastal command airbases, and even though coastal command isn't a player controlled entity, could that possibly be a reason he was spotted??? Just my thoughts on the subject....

[otisabuser2]

Hi 3rd ACR Tanker,

the raid is definitely spotted by Penzance. When you set up the raid in player vs player, the RAF gets the message I showed in my original pic. Penzance spots you each time, every time.

I must admit, I think the suggestion that random shipping may spot this raid carries some merit. But we need to consider three points.

Firstly, was the Bristol Channel any busier than other places for shipping traffic ? There's similarly heavy coastal traffic on the British east coast as well. As well as the merchants plying their way up and down the coast, there's the RN destroyers in and out of Harwich, Sherness, Humber etc, as well as the other small boat anti-invasion patrols, and numerous minesweepers, and fishing boats.

Secondly, consider where the bulk of the Bristol Channel shipping should be. ie on the northern side, serving the numerous industrial ports in south Wales. There's nothing on the southern side, save "holiday village" harbours. The targets on the south Wales side will spot the raids over where the shipping was.

Thirdly, should we open the whole can of worms of having boat observations in BTR off the coast of Holland and Denmark ? In the Med ?

Are these ships linked to Fighter Command, like the Observer Corps were ? No.

Could this occassional chance of boats pass on a continual line of plots, accurate estimations of aircraft directions, numbers and altitude, like the carefully laid out array of Observer Corps posts ? No.

Still looking at map of UK and thinking the only reason I can't fly to the left of Cornwall is because someone snipped the map there.

regards Otis

[Hard Sarge]

OB explain to me how you can do it on the East

it works the same on both sides, you come in under the radar, and then are spotted as you get close to the coast, the same from Northern France, the same from Norway, the same from Southern France

we added in OC places that you thought there were gaps in the OC coverage ?

[Hard Sarge]

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

OB explain to me how you can do it on the East

it works the same on both sides, you come in under the radar, and then are spotted as you get close to the coast, the same from Northern France, the same from Norway, the same from Southern France

we added in OC places that you thought there were gaps in the OC coverage ?

if there are gaps in the north we can add in OC areas, but it is still not a major issue, as the bombers from Norway are going to be using light loads to begin with

[otisabuser2]

I already drew you a map.

The "right flank" raid flew low to Hoffmans to avoid radar detection. It also plotted around Dover in a dog-leg to remove spotting by land targets until the last moments.

[Hard Sarge]

that is what I keep asking you and you don't follow, once it gets close to the coast, it is spotting, the same with the raid from Nick, once it gets close to the coast, it is spotted

all the sneak is doing, is getting you close to the coast, once there, you get seen, in the far north, in the middle, in the west or in the east

(there may be some OC gaps far up north, I have not looked for those (it is HARD to hit a lot of the targets in the North from Norway)

[otisabuser2]

Think.

What are the advantages of not being seen until the last possible moment ?

Clue.

I have already told you.

Can you seriously not see what Nick thought he ought to be able to do ? ? ? ?

Any thoughts on the other question of spotting ranges ?

[Hard Sarge]

I know all about it

yes I know what he was trying to do, and he wasn't able to do it, with a sneak, and as I have said, he could of done it with tactics instead

he wasn't able to sneak past, as he was spotted, if he had tried to sneak into the coast, he could of got in and got out

with what you want to say you can do in the east, yes, you can get to the coast, unseen, and then slip in and hit something close to the coast and try to get out, but you can't do that and fly to Liverpool unseen

you are spotted by the OC as you reach the coast in each of the cases

I have no control over the OC range, and I have too many other things I would like Harley looking at, then what the OC range is, so I will not be asking him to any time soon, maybe down the road, we can find out what it is, and if it seems to be too far or not

[Nikademus]

looks like a means to prevent an map-exploit to me.

[Hard Sarge]

OB

we "may" need some more coastal towns on the East side

not that I think they are really needed, but there are gaps in the OC coastal coverage