Japanese shipping oil vs shipping fuel - ques

[Mike Solli]

I absolutely agree with you, erstad.

[jackyo123]

Mike do you use the 'one big convoy' concept when pulling resources out of your major ports where docksize isnt a bottleneck? By force of habit (and expediency) ive got 70k convoys heading out of port arthur almost every 5th turn or so, but am not sure if its the best way to do it. Certainly easy to guard though - havent lost a single ship in one of my 'super convoys' yet (i followed someones advice (yours?) and converted all my 170k akl's to PB's - made a huge difference in being able to protect my shipping. Put good captains in those things, and some aggressive DD skippers, and the japanese are actually quite good at asw. ahistorical, but satisfying.

[InHarmsWay]

Nemo121
totally agree with you. In this game more than any other I have played, the old saying of "amatuers discuss tactics, professional discuss logistics" rings true. Logistics can lose the war for the Japanese quicker than anything else. As the Japanese, close management of transports and convoys are key. I believe allied subs are a much bigger part of the game in AE than WitP, and rightfully so. Large convoys are key along with air assests to bump up dectection levels. Key places such as Palambang, Balipapken (sp?) etc. need dedicated naval support to help speed loading. Especially Palambang, any turn not loading fuel or oil is victory for the allies.

[bklooste]

Also ship fuel to Truk from DEI not HI should be obvious but worth remembering.

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: jackyo123

Mike do you use the 'one big convoy' concept when pulling resources out of your major ports where docksize isnt a bottleneck? By force of habit (and expediency) ive got 70k convoys heading out of port arthur almost every 5th turn or so, but am not sure if its the best way to do it. Certainly easy to guard though - havent lost a single ship in one of my 'super convoys' yet (i followed someones advice (yours?) and converted all my 170k akl's to PB's - made a huge difference in being able to protect my shipping. Put good captains in those things, and some aggressive DD skippers, and the japanese are actually quite good at asw. ahistorical, but satisfying.

jackyo, for high level ports, I typically use larger convoys, but mainly because I use larger cargo ships. They can load almost a quickly as a horde of small cargos. These are often my hubs. But they also get more dedicated air and surface ASW as well as some recon in the area as well as along the shipping route. As InHarmsWay said, this (at least) bumps up the detection level reducing the effectiveness of Allied subs.

I'm intentionally not mentioning specific ports because my esteemed opponent may get some free intel. He's going to have to work for it. [:-]

[wwengr]

My experience level playing the Japanese is less than most of you. Nonetheless, I have done so and studied the problem. The advice from the wiki, as stated in the original post can only be taken with the narrowest view of dealing with the circumstance where resources are abundant and not a limiting input. I have not experienced that.

If you follow the industry pathways through to the end outputs, mathematically, shipping of oil vs. fuel sums out to zero...no difference. An optimization model of this has to consider numerous items:

• Bulk cargo shiiping capacity (resources & supplies)
• Liquid cargo shipping capacity (oil and fuel)
• Geographic distribution of strategic and operational needs for each different item
• Relative cost to maintain, build, repair different industry items in different locations (the wiki author obviously did not consider the extreme expense of repairing SRA refineries against the risk that effort will be in vain)
• Limiting inputs (the supply deficit for total potential production is an order of magnitude higher than the fuel deficit...)
• Many more things than I have thought of...

The advice in the wiki us ill conceived.

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: wwengr

If you follow the industry pathways through to the end outputs, mathematically, shipping of oil vs. fuel sums out to zero...no difference.

Are you talking about the shipping cost in fuel? That may be the case, but I still propose that oil have the higher priority because, unless you want to spend considerable supply to increase the refinery capacity in the SRA, that excess oil will remain in the SRA doing nothing. Eventually, most of the refineries in the Home Islands will do the same. Actually, that will happen to the refineries in the Home Islands eventually, even if you ship oil. Shipping oil from the SRA just prolongs it somewhat.

[wwengr]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

ORIGINAL: wwengr

If you follow the industry pathways through to the end outputs, mathematically, shipping of oil vs. fuel sums out to zero...no difference.

Are you talking about the shipping cost in fuel? That may be the case, but I still propose that oil have the higher priority because, unless you want to spend considerable supply to increase the refinery capacity in the SRA, that excess oil will remain in the SRA doing nothing. Eventually, most of the refineries in the Home Islands will do the same. Actually, that will happen to the refineries in the Home Islands eventually, even if you ship oil. Shipping oil from the SRA just prolongs it somewhat.

Have to view the context of the entire post for that one line to make sense. In that single line, I am stating the total of all inputs = the total of all outputs no matter what. Nothing more, nothing less.

The overall argument that I make supports your contention that it is better to ship oil to the Home Islands except on one point. If becuase of stockpiles and production rates at a particular location at a particular time, you can load your tankers much quicker with fuel than you can with oil, then load fuel. Get the oil on the next run.

[jackyo123]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

ORIGINAL: jackyo123

Mike do you use the 'one big convoy' concept when pulling resources out of your major ports where docksize isnt a bottleneck? By force of habit (and expediency) ive got 70k convoys heading out of port arthur almost every 5th turn or so, but am not sure if its the best way to do it. Certainly easy to guard though - havent lost a single ship in one of my 'super convoys' yet (i followed someones advice (yours?) and converted all my 170k akl's to PB's - made a huge difference in being able to protect my shipping. Put good captains in those things, and some aggressive DD skippers, and the japanese are actually quite good at asw. ahistorical, but satisfying.

jackyo, for high level ports, I typically use larger convoys, but mainly because I use larger cargo ships. They can load almost a quickly as a horde of small cargos. These are often my hubs. But they also get more dedicated air and surface ASW as well as some recon in the area as well as along the shipping route. As InHarmsWay said, this (at least) bumps up the detection level reducing the effectiveness of Allied subs.

I'm intentionally not mentioning specific ports because my esteemed opponent may get some free intel. He's going to have to work for it. [:-]

when shipping your oil to honshu, do you dump it in the closest big port (hiroshima I guess?) or lug it all the way to tokyo? I find that lugging to hiroshima cuts 2 days out of the trip - for oil not such a big deal as i am sucking all the oil that the dei can produce, but for fuel and resources, where there is plenty of excess at palembang and elswhere, the 2 days can make a difference.